something worth rewatching
- Thread starter Vaiyen
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snuffleupagus
New member
I'm sorry but my conception of primitive is diferrent from yours, and in this context that you have so graciously left out the gist of my argument was referring to a comment made about SRV.Mating being succumbing to a primitive urge?I agree with ya. SRV doing repetitive runs up and down the pentatonic scale akin to a caveman striking 2 rocks just so he can?I dun think so. Allow me to annoy you with an analogy and excuse the irrelevant tangents here and there.
You mean if you just feel like playing blues you can?
When you have your primal "primitive" urge to hump , you do what you gotta do, you do not need lessons to tell you where which part of your body needs attention and to put it primitively, which itch to scratch. In the case of playing the blues, you definitely need some form of theory and knowledge(hey man, DO some homework on the different scales and be enlightened about why there is a distinction between scales to suit different forms of music-ok im being sarcastic, sorry bout that)
Simply put, I feel that your statement about Blues is a sweeping elitist statement. To a power chord hero guitarist, playing the blues scale would be a challenge, and it would not be in any way "primitive".
To a dude who has mastered the guitar in the ways unimaginable(e.g playing 300note runs using his left toe and eyelash, Heck even Steve Vai's playing would be deemed "primitive" to him according to your argument.
And yes, Blues is by itself not a matter of memorising runs or technique, its about constant improvising, the ability to create based on the atmosphere and the theme of the music at the spur of the moment,its not about the speed and technique and the mazy runs or the encyclopedic theories in your brain, its much more than that....sometimes a single note sustained can speak volumes(read G3 Live JS, SV and Eric J) and to me, that pushes it to the realms of sophisticated creative non primitive music.Well thats just me.
All this to explain about "primitive?"I know you appreciate Blues by the way.You can't really go wrong with Clapton.
Sorry.
Good for you.
because I think therefore I am.
Ah, then here is the clarification - you and I know how difficult it is to converse on the forum - its not like I can walk up to you and ask you to clarify things.
But still what you are saying... I don't get it. So in order to make music, I got to not have my way in the music-making-process? How much less of my opinion and/or ego must I put down before I can say this music = "Actual" music.
Sure, I believe in my post, I did say -
"or some - that works. Suit yourself. Go ahead. (Note, this is a plus point)"
I didn't disregard your PoV, however, I was giving an alternate PoV so because of that, my statements that go against your PoV would be quite numerous no?
And I am trying to understand Blues so that I can "embrace music" just like you.
Blues IS primitive. Whitestrat explained it. Why do you take it in such negative light and start a woefully long section devoted to getting me either:
a) Upset
b) Put in the bad light
Geez man.
Again, I might not go all blues-eyed after this, but its for understanding which leads to appreciation.
Let me paint you a picture of my personal thought flow:
Blues is primitive form of music - how did I come up with that despite not listening to enough blues?
From conversations like this.
So what? So what if I have the head knowledge that blues is a form of music that is reliant on the musician conveying his emotion through - the emphasis is NOT on the MANNER its brought through?
Then I will seek to FEEL it more than THINK it through.
That's how I learned.
I am not for the kind of approach where, "your friend don't like blues ah? Then let him hear this half-breed/baked-pseudo blues thing (read: Stuff blues purists will NEVER call blues) that is super catchy, and he will listen and catch on from there!"
I rather get an explanation from the ground up, understand where the music is coming from, know the background then yes, I think I can appreciate it better.
I disregarded the previous section, I think you put it there just to antagonize me.
Did Clapton put out music for the masses?
Or was he just doing his own stuff and the masses happened to like it?
Big difference. You make it sound like Clapton wanted the world to love him... was it the case?
The former would be like some cultivated pop group while the latter seems to serve the "Clapton is a musician" thought better.
Anyone knows?
Interesting Whitestrat...
What would be case no? Back when it all started, it was all they got.. 3 chords and the scale that best went with those chords? Pentatonics.
This reminds... I watch a video of this... 80-something year old blues man. He played steel guitar. He sang. Just him alone i think.
I can outplay him with 1 play... I can play faster... I can use much more of the fingerboard... I would use way more notes out of the pentatonic shape.
But DAMN IT - I would never get that feel across. I cannot remember what he sang but it was hard to make out the words... still, I could feel his whole heart in the simple solo he played or the words he sang.
Me thinks its cool bluesy music...
Or music that follows the blues form?
I thought this was Blues...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_7UkcMVzag
I didn't care about the missed notes... the out of tune-ness... the music went pass the whole of that technical cloudiness and just to the soul.
I guess if Mr Mayer made a mistake, my ears would be all over it in a second?
NanoShred
New member
Wow, this is a long thread indeed. Alot of arguements between what seems like traditional blues and blues based music.
Indeed blues itself is mostly, based on 3 chords, simple structure, simple usage of guitar scales, little fret board acrobatics. It has a very signature sound to it and one of the genres that is emotionally evoking.
Fast forward many years through the definitive eras of guitar playing. We get guys adding gain, fuzz, OD.....effects, univibe, leslie , octavia, etc. Faster playing, more exaggerated bends and vibrato, faster paced. Hendrix, SRV, Robben Ford, Albert King, Phillip Sayce, Joe Bonamassa.
Does that make them any less a blues musician or the genre any less...bluesy? Of course i am talking about their blues playing and blues songs. Not the rock/pop/mainstream stuff that they also put out.
Agreed, many would scoff at John Mayer being a blues musician. His music is blues based though.
I personally don't think blues is primitive at all. Its a genre, like all genres that can constantly evolve. Just look at Scott Henderson and Robben Ford for key examples. It has influenced countless genres of music with its signature type guitar playing or sound. Influence wise, its far beyond many things. Evolution wise, its continuing to evolve. Scott henderson himself , calls himself a blues musician.
Nobody said you had to limit urself to any kind of playing to any genre. I don't expect any kind of music that stemmed from the 50s to be non evolving.
Ultimately, IMO those traditional blues stuff is just one kind of blues music. ( the stuff posted up there). I personally find that that kind of thinking itself, is already limiting
Indeed blues itself is mostly, based on 3 chords, simple structure, simple usage of guitar scales, little fret board acrobatics. It has a very signature sound to it and one of the genres that is emotionally evoking.
Fast forward many years through the definitive eras of guitar playing. We get guys adding gain, fuzz, OD.....effects, univibe, leslie , octavia, etc. Faster playing, more exaggerated bends and vibrato, faster paced. Hendrix, SRV, Robben Ford, Albert King, Phillip Sayce, Joe Bonamassa.
Does that make them any less a blues musician or the genre any less...bluesy? Of course i am talking about their blues playing and blues songs. Not the rock/pop/mainstream stuff that they also put out.
Agreed, many would scoff at John Mayer being a blues musician. His music is blues based though.
I personally don't think blues is primitive at all. Its a genre, like all genres that can constantly evolve. Just look at Scott Henderson and Robben Ford for key examples. It has influenced countless genres of music with its signature type guitar playing or sound. Influence wise, its far beyond many things. Evolution wise, its continuing to evolve. Scott henderson himself , calls himself a blues musician.
Nobody said you had to limit urself to any kind of playing to any genre. I don't expect any kind of music that stemmed from the 50s to be non evolving.
Ultimately, IMO those traditional blues stuff is just one kind of blues music. ( the stuff posted up there). I personally find that that kind of thinking itself, is already limiting
Whitestrat
New member
ShredCow
What was it Bono said? "A red guitar, 3 chords and the truth"? :lol:
It's like watching KWS's DVD on "Ten Days Out" where Cootie Stark and Neal Pattman simply blew a harp, strummed an acoustic and sang. That was it. KWS thankfully didn't play much. Those 2 guys were the thing man... they NAILED that track.
Snuffleupagus
You're missing my point. This is my point: You think SRV was thinking "Hey! If I do repetitive runs up and down the neck it'll sound good because this pattern interfaces with that scale and fits into this mode..."? No. I think he did it because it was 2nd nature to him. It was instinct. Gut feel. Sure, he can explain what he did after, but I'm quite sure he wasn't thinking about it.
The blues is music in it's most base form of expression. THAT's why it's primitive.
Again, you're missing the point. I'm sure you're so enlightened by your music theory, perhaps you'll deign to spend some time educating us? So enlightened that when you're trying to be sarcastic, you actually TELL us so that we get that you're trying to do so profoundly? Oh wow. I'm enlightened already. :lol: Now who's being elitist?
Then, perhaps you've studied so widely that you should know, that there's no such thing as a blues scale. I know this because my grade 5 classical theory teacher taught me this in sec 3 (that was more than 10 years ago actually, so I'm a bit rusty) It's harmonic minor or major pentatonics. In fact, blues isn't about scales. It's not about solos. It's not about searing leads. It's not even about playing guitar!!! :roll:
It's about telling a story. Telling your experiences in a song. Singing your troubles away. :wink:
To the power chord hero, who probably has some knowledge of open chords and barre chords, all he needs is to know the usual I-IV-V pattern to begin playing the blues.
No it's not. So there! *hmpf!!!* :x :lol:
Actually, you can. If you're into his "Blind Faith" era... "In The Presence Of The Lord"??? :roll: And if you're going to tell me that black Gospel music is the blues? I'm going to laugh at you. LOUDLY. :lol:
Ok, is it: I think therefore I am? or I think therefore I am?
Nanoshred
Actually, I wouldn't. I thoroughly enjoyed Try!. I hope he does more stuff like that.
What was it Bono said? "A red guitar, 3 chords and the truth"? :lol:
It's like watching KWS's DVD on "Ten Days Out" where Cootie Stark and Neal Pattman simply blew a harp, strummed an acoustic and sang. That was it. KWS thankfully didn't play much. Those 2 guys were the thing man... they NAILED that track.
Snuffleupagus
You're missing my point. This is my point: You think SRV was thinking "Hey! If I do repetitive runs up and down the neck it'll sound good because this pattern interfaces with that scale and fits into this mode..."? No. I think he did it because it was 2nd nature to him. It was instinct. Gut feel. Sure, he can explain what he did after, but I'm quite sure he wasn't thinking about it.
The blues is music in it's most base form of expression. THAT's why it's primitive.
Again, you're missing the point. I'm sure you're so enlightened by your music theory, perhaps you'll deign to spend some time educating us? So enlightened that when you're trying to be sarcastic, you actually TELL us so that we get that you're trying to do so profoundly? Oh wow. I'm enlightened already. :lol: Now who's being elitist?
Then, perhaps you've studied so widely that you should know, that there's no such thing as a blues scale. I know this because my grade 5 classical theory teacher taught me this in sec 3 (that was more than 10 years ago actually, so I'm a bit rusty) It's harmonic minor or major pentatonics. In fact, blues isn't about scales. It's not about solos. It's not about searing leads. It's not even about playing guitar!!! :roll:
It's about telling a story. Telling your experiences in a song. Singing your troubles away. :wink:
To the power chord hero, who probably has some knowledge of open chords and barre chords, all he needs is to know the usual I-IV-V pattern to begin playing the blues.
No it's not. So there! *hmpf!!!* :x :lol:
Actually, you can. If you're into his "Blind Faith" era... "In The Presence Of The Lord"??? :roll: And if you're going to tell me that black Gospel music is the blues? I'm going to laugh at you. LOUDLY. :lol:
Ok, is it: I think therefore I am? or I think therefore I am?
Nanoshred
Actually, I wouldn't. I thoroughly enjoyed Try!. I hope he does more stuff like that.
Right. Run off and don't bother explaining yourself, hit it off like its some juvenile game we're playing... its been like this a couple of times, even on PMs.
Obviously people are trying to take the time to understand others down here... and the whole thread was going GREAT - then you come in pepper your sarcasm around then walk off, like nothing happened.
Typical, if I must say, by now.
Obviously people are trying to take the time to understand others down here... and the whole thread was going GREAT - then you come in pepper your sarcasm around then walk off, like nothing happened.
Typical, if I must say, by now.
oh well... by all means live out your forum king dreams here la k shredcow
i think you are a nice person... but just your attitude doesnt sit well with mine. I dont like it when people get so full of themselves , they dont let other's in. The only typical thing here is your presence in everything ... do you get paid to loiter here and forcefeed people your opinion?
Its always left hanging cus ive pretty much said what i felt needed to be said.. and if you dont get it...well then ... till next time ...you get what i mean?
oh so you do know what it feels like when a thread is going great then someone comes in and "peppers sacarsm" i learnt that one from you.
BTW im not a great guitar player and i cant read music... you are really much better.
but that really doesnt mean i cant poke fun at you when you are being a poop head. Ive not directly implied it was you in any of my posts btw... but everyone knows who im talking about. thats the impression you give people ... i didnt force it on them.
i think you are a nice person... but just your attitude doesnt sit well with mine. I dont like it when people get so full of themselves , they dont let other's in. The only typical thing here is your presence in everything ... do you get paid to loiter here and forcefeed people your opinion?
Its always left hanging cus ive pretty much said what i felt needed to be said.. and if you dont get it...well then ... till next time ...you get what i mean?
oh so you do know what it feels like when a thread is going great then someone comes in and "peppers sacarsm" i learnt that one from you.
BTW im not a great guitar player and i cant read music... you are really much better.
but that really doesnt mean i cant poke fun at you when you are being a poop head. Ive not directly implied it was you in any of my posts btw... but everyone knows who im talking about. thats the impression you give people ... i didnt force it on them.
Point is - the whole thread was going in a very nice, civil manner. Then you came in and started the whole 'psst- its shredcow i'm hammering at, look he's being an ass'...
WHERE DID THAT BEGIN?
With you.
Context: Whitestrat and I having a well-meant, light hearted conversation
Current Situation: Chanmin walks in to POOP all over it
The last straw was just walking off when I made quite an effort to address your points and answer them in a un-condesending, even respectful manner. You don't like to talk fine - don't bother starting then.
However, since you already have your bias-ness - its no suprise you would come in and do your damage anyway. Its even more interesting your bias-ness stems not from direct contact, just 2nd or 3rd degree contact.
Even weird-er! I have bumped into you @ Malcolm's yet you wouldn't bring up these issues, except to resort to name calling ("forum king", "poop head") on a virtual forum.
WHERE DID THAT BEGIN?
With you.
Context: Whitestrat and I having a well-meant, light hearted conversation
Current Situation: Chanmin walks in to POOP all over it
The last straw was just walking off when I made quite an effort to address your points and answer them in a un-condesending, even respectful manner. You don't like to talk fine - don't bother starting then.
However, since you already have your bias-ness - its no suprise you would come in and do your damage anyway. Its even more interesting your bias-ness stems not from direct contact, just 2nd or 3rd degree contact.
Even weird-er! I have bumped into you @ Malcolm's yet you wouldn't bring up these issues, except to resort to name calling ("forum king", "poop head") on a virtual forum.
Whitestrat
New member
Have a great time playing with yourself!!! :lol: :roll: :wink:
aiyah... dun be so glum lah. you want to call someone a poop head, dun just come in a say things like that. write a song about it lah. then we can all jam along!!! :wink:
Then shredcow can really sit in one corner and sing the blues: "They call me the poop head... that's my name..."
Whitestrat
New member
Dude... Chill. Lets continue lei... We were having fun.
No lah Whitestrat... this thing between Chan Min and I has been on for a long time. Its unlikely it would be resolved so easily.
You know... I agree with you when you said "the blues is music in it's most base form of expression".
I think that's the heart of blues - conveying one's emotion thru song - I'm sure this no one would contend against no?
Like what I posted, if its good Blues going on, I am not going to care about mistakes on the guitar (or any other instrument) because the artiste paints a beautiful picture regardless of his technical ability.
That said, Nanoshred would be right to say, blues isn't primitive because, blues as a genre has expanded and influenced a whole host of music.
I see a distinction there.
I also see that... the more you expand upon blues - you tend to lose that base meaning and purpose of the blues.
You know... I agree with you when you said "the blues is music in it's most base form of expression".
I think that's the heart of blues - conveying one's emotion thru song - I'm sure this no one would contend against no?
Like what I posted, if its good Blues going on, I am not going to care about mistakes on the guitar (or any other instrument) because the artiste paints a beautiful picture regardless of his technical ability.
That said, Nanoshred would be right to say, blues isn't primitive because, blues as a genre has expanded and influenced a whole host of music.
I see a distinction there.
I also see that... the more you expand upon blues - you tend to lose that base meaning and purpose of the blues.
snuffleupagus
New member
Sheesh
:roll:
I'm sorry, where's waldo now?I guess I was so enlightened by your first post till i got carried away.
Well there are so many points that you say I have missed but honestly, its your points that I have not agreed with in the first place, and there is no universal point in the first place.Its a discussion about personal perceptions.What your classical teacher has taught you is just his/her peception.Can it be agreed universally?Will all music theorists in the world sit down and say yes?Will there be room for people with different perceptions somewhere out there ?I am sure that there are many others out there who can refute or disagree.If you wana be attention grabbing and controversial then please by all means stop regurgitating your influenced beliefs into my face whilst citing lame life-history lessons of your formative years. So stop getting your panties all twisted up eh.
Ok so your point is your a psychic or a very good guesser of how people approach their craft..Instinct? My point is that he knows what he is doing, and that instinct that he used came together with his EXPERIENCE with the scales and fretboard.Sorry I still don't agree that one can equate primitive with basic in this context.sue me.
:roll:
I'm sorry, where's waldo now?I guess I was so enlightened by your first post till i got carried away.
Well there are so many points that you say I have missed but honestly, its your points that I have not agreed with in the first place, and there is no universal point in the first place.Its a discussion about personal perceptions.What your classical teacher has taught you is just his/her peception.Can it be agreed universally?Will all music theorists in the world sit down and say yes?Will there be room for people with different perceptions somewhere out there ?I am sure that there are many others out there who can refute or disagree.If you wana be attention grabbing and controversial then please by all means stop regurgitating your influenced beliefs into my face whilst citing lame life-history lessons of your formative years. So stop getting your panties all twisted up eh.
Ok so your point is your a psychic or a very good guesser of how people approach their craft..Instinct? My point is that he knows what he is doing, and that instinct that he used came together with his EXPERIENCE with the scales and fretboard.Sorry I still don't agree that one can equate primitive with basic in this context.sue me.
Whitestrat
New member
But you see ah... my problem with your problem with "good blues" is that if I show you a guitarist playing strictly pentatonics, there's likelyhood that you might just dismiss it, when you might be missing the bigger picture. Would you think that your basis for judgement might be a bit too narrow scoped? I dunno ah, I'm just guessing. This is from seeing your reaction to SRV's Little Wing seen above.
There's a passage in that version where he does a single 2 note hammer on pull off, then rakes the 6 strings in a desparate fashion. This reminded me if someone straining at something, then eventually letting go a gasp of relief. And I think this is what he wanted to convey. If that's not masterful execution of emotion thru playing, then I don't know what is... :wink:
Actually, this made me laugh a bit. Not at you or the post, but I was thinking; isn't music in the first place supposed to be about conveying emotions through song? Then I thought of some prog musician having emotions which are timed at 13/8 time signature.... whahahaha...
But to me, Blues IS primitive BECAUSE of that. It's like it's the root of all things. Like the eyelem in the Big Bang Theory. It's a singluarity. But is it complex? Yes! Do we understand it? No. But it's still the primitive stage of the universe!
100% totally agreed!!!!
snuffleupagus
New member
Hahah sorry Goose, its not a slanging match dey, its just a healthy pointless discussion about something that has been discussed for donkey years.
Ok Whitestrat, I'll agree with whatever you wanna say next so that we can just put this to rest. At the end of the day, its still opinion vs opinion.
Ok Whitestrat, I'll agree with whatever you wanna say next so that we can just put this to rest. At the end of the day, its still opinion vs opinion.
