something worth rewatching

[ShredCow]

daniel, ur knowledge/exposure to the blues is more than I thought, from the past discussions on blues on this forum hurhur. Cool that u do listen to blues music.

What are your thoughts on John Mayer and his bluesy playing? Personally I see him as one who gets around monotonous pentatonic scale playing very well.

Kenneth - I doubt I have enough knowledge to hold a conversation with a bluesman... I mean, my conversation with Whitesnake is more of playing styles and theory, not so much of blues blues, if you get what I mean.

I don't listen to blues on a regular basis... but I go listen to recommendations here and there, once in a while. Blues is really not my thing but like, if listening to it can inspire me, sure, I'd love to listen - once in a while.

And yeah lah, since last time, you know, I did do some "homework". I may not be a professional musician but I do take music seriously.


What I think abt JM? I think he's been put off by many blues purists because he started pop then became a poster boy - like selling out to all those guitar companies... just brushed off as a pretty face.
But I think he's okay... he's fine. Like what you said, he plays in a "bluesy playing" style. I don't think of JM as blues blues, raw blues... but bluesy playing. He's the dude from Berkley no? He knows where to use quite few more notes but keep it blues-like.

I'm not a purist when it comes to the blues so... that's that.

Oh oh... one more thing why JM doesn't strike me as a blues blues player. He doesn't have that vibe. People joke about, to play the blues you got to have your dog died and stuff? I agree. Seriously. I don't believe that ANYONE can play the blues when you have nothing to ... "be blue" about. Perhaps some can emulate that feeling without having experienced it but... I can't think of anyone. I don't know JM's life or what but he doesn't strike me as true-ly playing the Blues.

 

[snuffleupagus]

In my opinion Marty's version is quite horrid. I don't feel it, the main message of the song to me seemed lost in his notes of self-indulgence?

I rate Marty highly though in his other works, but I really am quite disappointed in his rendition of this classic being a Hendrix fan. I do like Skid Row's version or Steve Lukather's.

And Blues is Blues, Rock is Rock, Jazz is Jazz, Fusion is fusion, Techno is techno.

Why bother understanding each other's preference of music' styles when everybody's intitial choice had been molded by a form of bias in the first place?

If BB king does his own rendition of "surfing with an alien", JS freaks will go nuts and Blues-men will proclaim his genius.
Diff Strokes for Diff Folks.

 

[ChanMin]

as a good young malay guitarist once said...

"shuddap and play your guitar"

discussing musical styles is commendable... but unless you apply it to your own playing ... its kinda pointless eh? I think the most important thing to ever come from a guitar player ... is not his point of view... but the music created from his instrument.

The internet has enabled many people wayy more credit then they deserve... in the era of the guitar legends... it was alot more sincere and "real" as the only way a guitarist could prove his point was by playing his music infront of other people.

i thought what Eric Ng (music producer of 881) said was very true....
there are two types of musicians... those that stay at home and go "i dont care if the people enjoy listening to what i do... its my style and im original" - basically these people never get anywhere in music as they are too myopic to accept critic and suggestions - thus completely overlooking the true essence of music in its entirety. Kinda like getting the best gear in the world and not playing it.

They may be technically excellent and theoretically well versed ...
but they will never write something that can bring a smile to a listener's face or a tear to a listener's eyes.

 

[ShredCow]

Snuff and Chanmin, I understand your concern but this conversation was really for me.

I want to know so I can improve and further mold my concepts of music - in this instance, blues. What's there to steal? What makes up this "primitive" form of music that can move?

These are ideas and stuff that come in to me and I find I can use them... in my compositions or what not... or even to say to a younger musician, to inspire them, help them have a deeper appreciation of music.

EDIT: Appreciation! Eh Snuff, this is the word lah... appreciate of other music forms/genres. Different strokes yes, but these discussions serve to help build a narrow bridge so at least, I wouldn't like, flip the channel the moment a blues concert goes on.

_________________________________


FYI, Chanmin, I have applied things learned in musical discussions to my music. Hence my great excitement and enthusiasm in such discussions. Coupled with the fact I take music seriously and I wish to explore its impact on people.

And I'm not for that certain "good, young malay guitarist's" quote because it just does not fulfill my interests and needs, in fact I find it shallow because he is like Yngwie to me...
When you shut up and just play - you starve yourself of potentially beneficial information and ideas that could take you a step higher.
Or... you could become totally true to yourself and make yourself happy.
Pros & Cons.

Funny that, you (Chanmin) go the opposite end of things where - music is for the people for the listener, and the player has but to fulfill that criteria. i.e. He has to move the people.

I disagree.

I recall certain musicians, professional sort, not like you and me, who have done their music, put it on albums... sent around the world... People critique it. There's good critique and then there's critique that stem from one's bias-ness (e.g. Shredcow saying blues = boring). To the latter kind of criticism, those artistes really don't care!

Why don't they care?!

Because music has to do with the individual as well.

People call music as a form of expression. If your expression has to be tailored to what the audience (or, the WORLD) thinks as acceptable, then... how many of you think that's a sad thing?

And I think - that's a problem. Unknowingly forcing conformity upon yourself, limiting the unlimited musical horizon to the rows of audience in front of you.

For some - that works. Suit yourself. Go ahead. (Note, this is a plus point)

To the rest, I like that. Be yourself. Go on at home and make the music that brings a smile to your face. (Which ironically, includes the "good young malay guitarist" )



Therefore, I find it difficult to accept your definition of "the true essence of music" because what the home player plays, can move people, maybe just not you.

 

[Whitestrat]

Whitestrat (for some reason, I'm inclined to call you whitesnake)

Just because you're named after some animal... whaha... kidding lah... I don't mind. But though I grew up in that era, I do dig David Coverdale's vocals, but not much of the band's stuff. Very glam rock lah... And somemore they not more glam than Poison... whahaha...

People joke about, to play the blues you got to have your dog died and stuff? I agree. Seriously. I don't believe that ANYONE can play the blues when you have nothing to ... "be blue" about. Perhaps some can emulate that feeling without having experienced it but... I can't think of anyone. I don't know JM's life or what but he doesn't strike me as true-ly playing the Blues.

Phil Collins asked EC: "How can you stand there in a $3,000 Armani suit and sing the blues?" :lol: EC replied: "Blues is a state of mind". Then again, EC has had one depressing, tragic life.

But I honestly know what he's talking about. Truth!!! I once went thru a period where I had NO guitars to play, simply because they were all distributed everywhere for repairs and mods and whatever, and I was stuck with only my 7 string. I was missing my strats BADLY. I began playing the blues very well on that 7 string... whahahaha... :lol:

I dig what you say about "ignore the scales and what makes sense" and play what you hear in your head. I think this is a double edged sword... on one hand, it can potentially stick you to the corner of repetitive-ness because you're holed up in your own limited musical ideas...

Well, that's also another excuse for these blues greats to justify their technical ignorance! whahaha... :lol: But I understand that. Then again, I did get this concept from someone else very well versed - Steve Vai. He mainly spoke about getting an idea in your head and playing it there and then during improvising. He said the limitations are your hands, not your mind. So, you need to learn how to control your hands with your mind, and remove that limitation.

I like it when the solo flows with the chords - sort of what you are saying that the "pattern changes every 2 bars" - because I feel that this style of solo-ing, truely brings out the backing chords and really, shows how good/bad you are at improvising. Its bloody tough!!!

Yeah man... bloody tough. That's why I can't remember the songs which had it. I gave up on them!!! :lol:

Heck, I heard BB King use harmonic minor... eat your heart out yngwie.

You know what? So does Clapton. :wink:

Eh eh, tis truth! Wonderful Tonight live, the solo, got major scale (notes outside the pentatonic) inside lah. Really!

I know lah... just joshing you... But that's my point. Why does it only have to be pentatonic? I don't think EC knows what he's really doing either. The apparent thing about that one is the melody more than the scale used. Generic major scale.

Most of the time, its like there's some sort of "reverential" emphasis placed upon the sacred blues pentatonic

I think we got it upside down. I think the initial introduction on blues is mainly 3 chord shapes. The A chord, E chord and the D chord shape. transpose these up the scale and what do you get? the basic frame works of pentatonic scales in 1 harmonic minor pattern. I think that's why the "reverence" of that scale. It's not because they just want to use it, it mainly because there's nothing else they know that can be used!

 

[Whitestrat]

And Blues is Blues, Rock is Rock, Jazz is Jazz, Fusion is fusion, Techno is techno.

Then you're missing the point.

The point is: There is no spoon.

Genres are defined by man. Music is not created by man. We are just busy trying to box ourselves in.

Study te chromatic scale, and you'll know what I mean.

 

[Whitestrat]

discussing musical styles is commendable... but unless you apply it to your own playing ... its kinda pointless eh? I think the most important thing to ever come from a guitar player ... is not his point of view... but the music created from his instrument.

Actually, you have it the wrong way round. A Guitarist should ALWAYS be a musician first, before playing his guitar. Otherwise you're always confined to playing guitar they way you conceive it to be. But if that conception stems from a perception which can be altered, then they way you play will be different. Just like playing different guitars will result in you playing different styles.

Look at my signature. Jeff Beck knows what he's talking about.

 

[Whitestrat]

What's there to steal? What makes up this "primitive" form of music that can move?

Actually, when you listen more to various genres, you'll realise something strange.

The Blues is the ONLY music community where everyone steals from each other, and it's totally ok!!!! You can rip off another bluesman, but you better do good by him. (that your version better do him proud) But it's still ok to rip off his licks or riffs.

Try that in Metal... :lol:

 

[snuffleupagus]

Sigh shreddycow, yes appreciation is the correct word, I'm sure you know me well enough to know what I'm driving at.I'm a bluesman at heart but I really enjoy other genres too, especially out-of-the-box stylings of yours which traditional bluesmen would shun and scoff at.

I'm just stating my honest non-sugar-coated opinion about Marty's rendition which I will not make any apologies for, but I do appreciate his style and technique prevalent in his own works.

Dear Whitestrat, I agree that music is music and that every genre is intertwined by some magical cosmic mathematical design and that we should not limit ourselves.I would buy into your point of stating the obvious of the existence of "Sporks"However, if somebody says Blues is prmitive, then I will have to defend saying that that somebody does not understand blues at all.I own't even bother to explain that statement. I think KWS is a rip-off, just like SRV and many others,but politically speaking, he is still a muscian and should be appreciated and should be applauded for being one with music in essence, but that does not mean I'll have to like it.That applies to everyone, whether shredcow says it or whoever.Music is opiniated in all its glory, but when the right puzzle fits with the individual, the same spiritual experience will be shared equally regardless of genre.I'm just stating my case and I do not wish that our opinions are of the same, but I do value differing opinions though.

I could go on and state patronising metaphors to make myself feel better momentarily, but I'd rather be clear and to the point.

To top it off in the most contradictory manner thinkable, I would like to sign off by offering the most cliche-smart-alecky-i-am-a-guru-behind-my-keyboard rambling of "Cogito Ergo Sum". :?

 

[gsonique]

if John Mayer plays blues ...then click five does it too ... :?

 

[KennethC]

wahaha still in denial!

 

[gsonique]

Have you seen a Goose get violent :smt021



:lol:

Bro we grew up with Blues ...we kinda know what it's all about aye !

Btw IMO ... :wink:

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth - I doubt I have enough knowledge to hold a conversation with a bluesman... I mean, my conversation with Whitesnake is more of playing styles and theory, not so much of blues blues, if you get what I mean.

I don't listen to blues on a regular basis... but I go listen to recommendations here and there, once in a while. Blues is really not my thing but like, if listening to it can inspire me, sure, I'd love to listen - once in a while.

And yeah lah, since last time, you know, I did do some "homework". I may not be a professional musician but I do take music seriously.

good stuff. =) I'm no blues purist myself, I'm learning to appreciate it more as I go along.

What I think abt JM? I think he's been put off by many blues purists because he started pop then became a poster boy - like selling out to all those guitar companies... just brushed off as a pretty face.
But I think he's okay... he's fine. Like what you said, he plays in a "bluesy playing" style. I don't think of JM as blues blues, raw blues... but bluesy playing. He's the dude from Berkley no? He knows where to use quite few more notes but keep it blues-like.

Oh oh... one more thing why JM doesn't strike me as a blues blues player. He doesn't have that vibe. People joke about, to play the blues you got to have your dog died and stuff? I agree. Seriously. I don't believe that ANYONE can play the blues when you have nothing to ... "be blue" about. Perhaps some can emulate that feeling without having experienced it but... I can't think of anyone. I don't know JM's life or what but he doesn't strike me as true-ly playing the Blues.

Well I guess I never did see dead pets as a pre-req for playing true blues...but I know what u're getting at. Also, what makes me blue may not make you blue...so maybe his pet dog shat on his new converse sneaks, and he was darn sad abt it. hehe, kidding. But I do think "being blue enough" to play the blues is relative, and subjective.

Oh well, maybe I really don't know the blues la. I'm not professing to know it like an expert. Chill ya ppl, I'm not trying to be antagonistic.

Is this really not blues music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KGw9JXsBmI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qla13aWrNP4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh4n1bZi4d8&mode=related&search=

 

[KennethC]

ok la bro goose.

I honestly probably know too little abt blues music to talk too much abt it. Like I said in my prev post, the videos seem quite "blues" to me, though I might just be a frog in a well..so don't flame me for thinking it's blues ya!

cheers fellas.

 

[snuffleupagus]

That is definitely the blues, I do not see how that can not be blues. :lol:

 

[ChanMin]

well ... white strat and cow... i do believe i got it the right way around...

i too am looking to further my musical horizons like you guys... my post was merely to indicate that... being a musician - one must not let his personal opinion and ego eclipse what is truly important. The Actual music being created.

yes, i prefer to play things that people like to hear. As opposed to just playing what i like. Being open minded and trying to enjoy what someone else likes to hear is "embracing music" on a whole is it not?

So if say...

i think blues is primitive... its too simple... its boring because its just pentatonics again and again ... and again ... over a 1,4,5 progression where everyone just takes turn to solo and moan about lack of money and women...

i think yngwie malmsteen is boring.. because its the neoclassical equivalent of army canteen food...
i openly slam another equally good or maybe even better young malay guitarist because he plays and sounds like malmsteen- i think his approach to playing is shallow and boring.

SO i say... OK ... COME .. show me the BLUES ... lets discuss BBking and CLAPTON and break their styles down into tiny bits so all of us can better appreciate whats so nice about them after all ... whats it about this primitive style of slave music that is so bland and un-refined that moves people? i mean .. i DONT play blues... i just want u guys to try and sell the blues idea to me... cus im currently on a higher plane of musicality here... give me a bloody reason to come down to your level guys...

Oh and even after this conversation ... im pretty much - still not gonna play blues. but thanks for the chat! real mind blowing~


******
i mean i know all of you have your own opinions and perspectives on music... but come on la...
you guys all concur that WONDERFUL TONIGHT was well written...its got a simple but well written lick that has left such a lasting impression on all of us guitarists...

(you know you can hum that wonderful tonight intro....
ok ... now hum for me the intro of any Mattias IA Eklundh song)

Now now... we all call clapton the "hand of god"
you think he would have been so popular and well received if he didn't bother to put out what people liked to hear and just banged out cd after cd of 12 bar blues? tracks like blue eyes blue... .wonderful tonight.... was clapton embracing other genres of music out of blues and appealing to the mainstream listener. who's opinion is no less valuable then yours or mine.

Oh and btw JM is a blues guitarist. One of the best too... - thats kinda like clapton eh? blues guitarist but globally famous for a few mainstream pop tunes... :wink:

 

[gsonique]

No need to go far ....this fella plays the blues

you dig !!

 

[Whitestrat]

However, if somebody says Blues is prmitive, then I will have to defend saying that that somebody does not understand blues at all.I own't even bother to explain that statement.

Actually, I would explain my statement. Because Blues IS a primitive form of music. Just like the instinct to mate is a primitive subconscious instinct we all have. Pardon the analogy, but to me the blues is very simple: If I am horny, then all I want to do is screw. I don't want to think about how I want to do it, or with whom. Just screw and enjoy it. :lol:

I think KWS is a rip-off, just like SRV and many others,but politically speaking, he is still a muscian and should be appreciated and should be applauded for being one with music in essence,

That's why I have all of his CDs... :wink:

yes, i prefer to play things that people like to hear. As opposed to just playing what i like.

Whats wrong with making what you like into what people like to hear? I used to be one of those snobs. Only play prog metal and stuff. Then I tried jmming with a band where all the members could have been my grandfathers. We played The Shadows, The Beatles, even Theresa Teng!!! And you know what? I liked it! I began playing covers a lot after that, and discovered a whole new way to play the guitar which I never knew. And to those who think playing Top 40 covers is easy, try playing Backstreet Boys "Incomplete" on a 7 string... Heh. That is FUN!

I think they key word is versatility. Not so much on whether which style is better to play. Why not play everything? The only style that still eludes me is Jazz.

i think yngwie malmsteen is boring.. because its the neoclassical equivalent of army canteen food...
i openly slam another equally good or maybe even better young malay guitarist because he plays and sounds like malmsteen- i think his approach to playing is shallow and boring.

Sure... but that young malay guitarist didn't start an era in music... Malmsteen, love him or hate him, did.

Now now... we all call clapton the "hand of god"
you think he would have been so popular and well received if he didn't bother to put out what people liked to hear and just banged out cd after cd of 12 bar blues? tracks like blue eyes blue... .wonderful tonight.... was clapton embracing other genres of music out of blues and appealing to the mainstream listener. who's opinion is no less valuable then yours or mine.

All I'm gonna do, is show you this:

i just want u guys to try and sell the blues idea to me... cus im currently on a higher plane of musicality here... give me a bloody reason to come down to your level guys...

uh... why should we? If you don't get it, then you don't get it. No one's forcing anything down your throat... Anyways, i'm sure you're much happier and succesful in your loftier form of self indulgence. :roll:

To top it off in the most contradictory manner thinkable, I would like to sign off by offering the most cliche-smart-alecky-i-am-a-guru-behind-my-keyboard rambling of "Cogito Ergo Sum".

Damn!?!?!? What does Descartes have to do with the blues? Sounds more like prog rock! :lol:

 

[ChanMin]

show us his feet leh .. im pretty sure hes using a G'sonique pedal~

 

[gsonique]

Just imagine that goin through a fuzz 8O