Singapore Malay Model Got Canned For Drinking Beer In M'sia.

I STILL HAVENT FOUND MY ANSWER: ?????

Religious terrorists all over the world have their own "guidelines" which in their eyes, the killing of of innocent lives is justified as long as their cause is served ..... In their world this is their "law" ... JUST AS THE RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES THERE HAS TAKEN UPON CANING TO BE A JUST LAW???

Ya, FGL - you should be singing "But I still haven't found what I'm looking for..." like Bono. :mrgreen:

Well, in no way I am defending anything because I don't really know the history of how these punishments were invented but you have to ask yourself - is it a 'just' law to mete out caning for vandalism, is it a 'just' law to hang a drug mule who had tried to smuggle in a certain amount of heroin?

I know, the comparison with these crimes and their implications are vastly different but tell that to a mother of a son who was a victim of a drug syndicate, forced to carry drugs through to Singapore, caught and then hung.

Do you think she'd think it's a 'just' law?

You know, everybody would love to do something about all this but can we do?

Tell me - what can we do?

As I said, these kind of punishments in Shariah law exists more in those fundamental countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran and now we know, Malaysia.

It's good to know, IMHO, that man and politics have had more than a hand in shaping what we call religion, over time.

The woman has already decided to accept the punishment.

Let's move on, shall we? ;)
 
All religion teaches us good, somehow or other the meanings get lost in translation when they are passed down by the tongues of man.



Well said,FGL. I remembered John lennon once said "Jesus is allright,it is the followers (disciples) who are thick and ordinary"
It sums up everything,hahaha! Being a christian when i was younger,i read bible saying ' not everyone who publicly cries "lord, lord" will be saved' there's more hypocrites than we can count with our fingers and toes.
 
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You call Malaysia,Iran and Saudi Arabia fundamentalistic countries? That's over generalization.

I think the reference was made directly from this website which he referenced earlier in one of the posts -

Flagellation (or flogging) is also used as a form of punishment in some fundamentalist Muslim countries. The most well-known of those countries are Saudi Arabia and Iran. In those states, flogging is used to punish the crimes of: fornication (sex outside of marriage), drinking alcohol, taking drugs and defamation of Islam.

In Islam, lashes are to be performed with the Koran under one arm to minimise the swing, are not supposed to leave permanent scars, and when the number of lashes are high, are frequently done in batches to minimise risk of harm.


:cool:
 
visa, it is all "state of mind". When you are at peace with yourself, the surrounding should not matter. You simply understand that 'things happen' for a reason.

I believe this is the Way.

I can understand such a perspective- but it can also be very dangerous when people choose not to take an active interest in their surroundings.

Did the Holocaust happen for a reason? Genocides in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Native America? Can you be "at peace with yourself" if you live in a community of racists, sexists and xenophobes? All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
 
hifi_killer:

I think parents have the right to influence their child in anyway they want to. Well, No it is not just their right, it is their responsibility.

So it was Southern Americans' right and responsibility to tell their children "When you see a nigger or a Jew, son, shoot it and shoot it good"?

and imposing religion at such a young age should be seen as "education" and helpful to the child's mental development.

A closed mind does not develop.

A child who has a religion 'imposed' onto him would probably fare better than a child without religion when it comes to moral development, mood stability, reaction to traumatic events.

I know of people who felt extremely guilty and frightened by religion as children and are still carrying the scars to this day; the concept of burning in hell for eternity is quite a traumatic one!
 
Forcing religion onto a child is child abuse, I cannot in good conscience let anybody I know do so. You had better make sure I don't know you personally before you try, or I'm bound by my conscience, integrity, and honour to kick your ass.

Come on hifi, you've been through the army, in my few months there, I have seen religious people show lapses in integrity for the sake on convenience. It's disgusting, religion clearly has no link to the personal character of a growing person.

You know what hifi killie billie? I value above all else, strength in a person's character and integrity to his beliefs. Despite your horrendously warped mind, I admire the fact that you have consistently showed strength and integrity by stubbornly clinging on to your backdated beliefs. You may want to consider revisiting your interventionist policies though, because someday, someone might turn around and bite you, HARD.

I believe in only doing what you want to do, and I promised myself to crush all who tried to stop me. Clinging to old ideals of societal control is something I despise. I will flatten my BMT platoon sergeant if I ever see him outside of Singapore in a "free world" country (home field advantage) because of this reason. I hope the same does not happen to you hifi, because you are a sheltered and mollycoddled in the cocoon of this country. Mind you, I think people who believe in the same set of values that I do will willingly give our lives for what we believe in.

Vae Victis
 
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Hi Everyone,

A point to note when discussing syariah courts in Malaysia, each state has its own governing body on matters of religion and its own interpretation of the laws. As mentioned before, The religious moral guidelines may be founded on the main texts in Islam; Qurán and the collection of (hadith) narrations and practices of Muhammad (in the Sunni tradition, largely derived from 6 major compilers). Moral guidelines have also transcended over generations from practices of companions and communities (various religions) at the time of Muhammad based on a reasoning that these practices existed while Muhammad was alive and he did not prohibit (and in most occassions did not also promote them), as such were seen to be acceptable (not necessarily encouraged) practices.

Fgl pointed out accurately on the pivotal differences between moral guidelines and shariah penal code. However, in many situations just as in Singapore, moral guidelines have cascaded into punitive measures when those in authorities fears helplessly on being unable to control the situation to their preferred standards. (example http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/07/big-brother-descends-on-speakers-corner/)

Works by many scholars of religion have demonstrated that in the various religion there are aspects of Love and Wrath as premises of moral guidance.

For those seriously wishing to seek answers, this reading is recommended; http://eprints.um.edu.my/303/1/siti_zubaidah_university_of_malaya.pdf. A paper presented in Singapore on the subject of The Implementation of Shariah Offences in Malaysia: Issues, Challenges and The Way Forward.

It is an academic work that was written by an established practitioner/academic in law. (her profile http://umexpert.um.edu.my/papar_cv.php?id=AAAJxnAAQAAAF+GAAA)

The reason I'm posting this is to share resources that were done in rigour beyond the convenient googling and wikis which are very dependent on hits and popularity rather than accuracy and credibility.

regards.
 
I believe in only doing what you want to do, and I promised myself to crush all who tried to stop me. Clinging to old ideals of societal control is something I despise. I will flatten my BMT platoon sergeant if I ever see him outside of Singapore in a "free world" country (home field advantage) because of this reason. I hope the same does not happen to you hifi, because you are a sheltered and mollycoddled in the cocoon of this country. Mind you, I think people who believe in the same set of values that I do will willingly give our lives for what we believe in.


You sounded like you are trying to be a "keyboard hero" as some people have called me. By the way, what is your "old ideals" and what are the new ideals? Don't you know what's new today is actually growing old very soon? And what do you mean by willingly giving up your lives for what you believe in, what do you believe in? Statue of Liberty in the US?
 
yes. of course if the child is exposed to blasphemous beliefs, it will do more harm than good. The child will grow up with a rather narrow mindset and even develop schizotypal traits.

but. for every child who is taught to kill their enemies ruthlessly, there are probably 120941237413049824 children out there who will be taught by their religion to love thy neighbours.

having a religion in general ( a normal one, orthodox one, not the extreme kind) helps the child.
Empirical research generally supports that the idea that religion is indeed helpful to a child's mental and moral development. In the face of a traumatic event, a child with strong faith will be able to dissociate from the traumatic experience easily and hence suffer less stress compared to one without religion.

yes integrity is important, but too much integrity is usually associated with obsessive compulsive personality traits in general, overly -defensive ego.

Also in general, criminals have abnormally high integrity.

i dont think its worth to die for an idealistic cause
 
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I believe in my personal freedom, and would rather die than see it taken away (and no, I'm a rather willing conscript). I also believe in self-discipline, and SELF Discipline only, nobody has the right to impose anything on anyone else (within reason of course, rape is obviously wrong).

Hifi, where is the empirical research you speak of? I pulled through many a high stress situation only to emerge stronger. The brutal truth toughens you up, religion gives you a crutch to lean on. Makes you weaker, and unable to fight the traumatic experience. You are going to need to visit american bible belt hifi killer, they're all bonkers and militantly christian over there, too many to constitute a 'small minority'.

Balloons, if you know me in person, you wouldn't call me a keyboard hero, I put my money and my blood where my mouth is. Anyway, who said my set of values are "new"? They're considerably older than you are.

By the way, the Abrahamic faiths are warped. Believe in him, or he'll send you to a special place, full of fire and burning and smoke and torture where he'll send you to suffer and burn and scream and cry for ALL OF ETERNITY.


But he LOVES you.

I wonder how putting the fear of such a place in the mind of a young impressionable child can actually slip by your conscience.

Generally a lack of empathy seems to be prevalent in criminals.

I think dying to save your cause is worthy, because you pave the way for future generations.

Please don't even think about dissing the Americans as well, without them, you'd be speaking Japanese.
 
hifi_killer:
but. for every child who is taught to kill their enemies ruthlessly, there are probably 120941237413049824 children out there who will be taught by their religion to love thy neighbours.

Really? Then why are there so many religious people who practice racial and gender discrimination? Why are there so many religious homophobes? How many religious people would pass a lie detector if they said that they truly love their neighbours without prejudice or indifference?

In the face of a traumatic event, a child with strong faith will be able to dissociate from the traumatic experience easily and hence suffer less stress compared to one without religion.

That's like saying a person who is drunk is less stressed than a person who is sober; it might be factually accurate but doesn't actually mean anything and doesn't have any social benefits.

Let me explain by using examples. Let's think of a traumatic experience- say, your parents being killed in a terrorist attack. If you're religious, you might be more at peace thinking that your parents are in heaven. This alone however doesn't actually change the fact that terrorism exists. As such, if you think about it, the only person who stands to benefit is the child himself- in the same way that a drunk stands to benefit from drinking.

Karl Marx described religion as "the opiate of the masses". In other words, if you believe that you will be rewarded for your suffering with a blissful afterlife, you're less likely to revolt against an authority which is exploiting you without you realising it. Neutral folks in who witnessed the Holocaust might have thought "Oh dear, it's terrible that all these people are being killed, but at least they're going to Heaven". Everything, after all, is "God's will".

i dont think its worth to die for an idealistic cause

What better kind of cause is there to die for? Abraham Lincoln died for an idealistic cause. So did Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Joan of Arc. What would YOU give up your life for? If you say "I wouldn't want to give up my life for anything", that really means that your life isn't worth anything either.
 
EngelFaeuste:

I believe in my personal freedom, and would rather die than see it taken away (and no, I'm a rather willing conscript). I also believe in self-discipline, and SELF Discipline only, nobody has the right to impose anything on anyone else (within reason of course, rape is obviously wrong).

Agreed!

Hifi, where is the empirical research you speak of? I pulled through many a high stress situation only to emerge stronger. The brutal truth toughens you up, religion gives you a crutch to lean on.

Agreed +100!

PS: someone's been listening to Carlin, eh? :D
 
Hifi, where is the empirical research you speak of? I pulled through many a high stress situation only to emerge stronger. The brutal truth toughens you up, religion gives you a crutch to lean on. Makes you weaker, and unable to fight the traumatic experience. You are going to need to visit american bible belt hifi killer, they're all bonkers and militantly christian over there, too many to constitute a 'small minority'.

Balloons, if you know me in person, you wouldn't call me a keyboard hero, I put my money and my blood where my mouth is. Anyway, who said my set of values are "new"? They're considerably older than you are.

By the way, the Abrahamic faiths are warped. Believe in him, or he'll send you to a special place, full of fire and burning and smoke and torture where he'll send you to suffer and burn and scream and cry for ALL OF ETERNITY.


oh well said, EngelFaeuste, i am afriad i didnt have the honour to know you personally. By the way,i am 42 years old,and how about you? Why are you against Abrahamic faiths? are you a staunch atheist? For all you know,Hell ain't a bad place. Don't worry man, but it sure will be crowded because Atheists belong there too.

I don't agree with you religion give people a crutch to lean on. Is love a weakness or strength? It is pretty obvious you haven't grown enough to figure it out. Makes someone weaker and unable to fight a traumatic experience? are you talking about yourself? if you are, why don't you share your experience with us here? who knows we can help you feel better soon.
 
You are going to need to visit american bible belt hifi killer, they're all bonkers and militantly christian over there, too many to constitute a 'small minority'.


Well,again the same mindset, "all bonkers" "too many to be a small minority"
They,over there in US don't represent all christians. Just as one or two women don't represent all women in the world.

In today's world, there are no perfect examples from a race or religion to systematically present to us the characteristics of that particular trait of human nature. Just like, you can't say all blacks are good in moonwalk or dance,just because Michael Jackson did it like no one else. Similarly, you cannot say the whole buddhist community are out of their mind if a monk is caught spending public's donations for the sick to buy a horse in Australia or a condo in New Zealand.
 
visa:

Really? Then why are there so many religious people who practice racial and gender discrimination? Why are there so many religious homophobes? How many religious people would pass a lie detector if they said that they truly love their neighbours without prejudice or indifference?

So if there is no such thing as religion at all, do you think all the racial and gender discrimination disappear?
There is no solution in this world works 100% in ensuring harmony. But if you look at religion from a cost - benefit paradigm, its clearly better than the costly media campaigns, military deterrence and mainstream education.
Yes religion have been a caused of many bloody wars in the past, but thats in the past. Post 9/11 mainstream religions have changed a lot since then. In general, among different religions, similarities are emphasised, differences are trivialised. Obama had indeed made use of the similarities of Abrahamic faiths to reach out the the Muslim audience in Egypt.


That's like saying a person who is drunk is less stressed than a person who is sober; it might be factually accurate but doesn't actually mean anything and doesn't have any social benefits.

what.? How is drinking LIKE religion?

religion provides a buffer against trauma, promotes social cohesion , unity, at least within our communities. As mentioned earlier on, mainstream religion after 9/11 saw it as their one of their goals to mend ties between faiths. There are clearly social benefits in addition to the psychological benefits.

Let me explain by using examples. Let's think of a traumatic experience- say, your parents being killed in a terrorist attack. If you're religious, you might be more at peace thinking that your parents are in heaven. This alone however doesn't actually change the fact that terrorism exists. As such, if you think about it, the only person who stands to benefit is the child himself- in the same way that a drunk stands to benefit from drinking.

Other than the drinking part, i agree that that the child benefits from it. Well, that was my original point

Karl Marx described religion as "the opiate of the masses". In other words, if you believe that you will be rewarded for your suffering with a blissful afterlife, you're less likely to revolt against an authority which is exploiting you without you realising it. Neutral folks in who witnessed the Holocaust might have thought "Oh dear, it's terrible that all these people are being killed, but at least they're going to Heaven". Everything, after all, is "God's will".

Karl Marx is an idealist, his ideas arent perfect, you should take his ideas with a pinch of salt.

What better kind of cause is there to die for? Abraham Lincoln died for an idealistic cause. So did Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Joan of Arc. What would YOU give up your life for? If you say "I wouldn't want to give up my life for anything", that really means that your life isn't worth anything either.


I belief the basic goal of ALL living organisms is self-preservation. Only when such lower level needs are satisfied (self-preservation), human beings are then able to proceed to satisfy their higher level needs, as according to Maslow's Pyramid.

If you are dead, what use are you of to the world?
 
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