My opinion of what's wrong/needs to be improved on with SG music scene.

[Danelectrico]

hey daryl, now if that was all of what blank said, then i doubt this little thread would have carried on to such lengths. Obviously something was said that ruffled a few feathers, and it certainly wasn't because he held a mirror up to our faces forcing us to confront ourselves - but rather it seemed an uneasy mix of a distortion of unfounded facts, inadequate analysis and opinions that really didn't have much weight to begin with.

now blank, i read your posts in great detail. yes, you didn't say anything overtly negative about allura, but "decent songs, live show lacking" certainly didn't sound positive either. you said this in your first post, and where it was in the context of analysing what was wrong with our scene - read together, it translates to "this band ain't much, they're not lowering the averages but they certainly aren't raising the bar either".

Likewise on IADS: "My judgement on them was based on their earlier myspace tracks. Maybe I don't know everything there is to know about them, would you follow and buy the new albums of a band you didn't enjoy?" Actually I have, quite often, and sometimes I'm very pleasantly surprised at what I find. Also, I certainly don't post on a forum criticizing and singling out a band based on a few songs I heard about a year ago or earlier. In fact, am I the only one who thinks something is majorly wrong in thinking that you can fairly and credibly criticise a band by just listening to a couple of their songs ages ago? Jeesh.

Yes I was at Baybeats and i caught a number of the sets you mentioned. I didn't see Midnight Marvel though and I don't claim to know much about them, all i will say is that I do see a nod towards riot grrl rock from their Spit It Out song and i find it really catchy in spite of its crudeness and slight sloppiness. My overall impressions of the bands i did see were that the new bands (YAWH, Oslo Castaways, Silhouette, Cardinal Avenue, Sourgrapes) were pretty good, i enjoyed their sets - sure, some were a little rough around the edges, and there's always room for progress, but i really didn't think anyone did a terrible job and i enjoyed myself. As I'm not familiar with their recorded material, I went in with no expectations and had a good night out with some bands on my watch list. I thought Analog Girl, Amberhaze, Electrico and Caracal played sets i thought were excellent, with some moments bordering on fantastic. it's nice to finally get to hear Electrico from the front of house rather than via on-stage monitors. The Oddfellows, who I'm a huge fan of, had some cringeworthy moments featuring some massively untuned guitars and bass, but once they hit in their stride, showed some really good songs and classic songwriting. Just a shame that such an iconic band couldn't have worked on their tuning and played a bit tighter, the opening songs were quite shambolic.

You just said "I just think they don't help the scene as much. They do, but not that much. And when there are alot of bands like that, not only that, they don't even do it well, they do bring the standard down. That being said, if generic bands did what they did well (which over here I don't think they do), they would help alot more."

Until we're less vague about what bands you consider generic and what's not, i'll assume bands with some level of recognition, either from a commercial or critical point of view, and have at least recorded material for release. I'll hazard to state that bands like GSE, Electrico, Plainsunset, Shirlyn, WGB, Jack & Rai, Ronin, Saw Loser, Observatory, Force Vomit, Astreal, Concave Scream, The Suns, Vertical Rush, Daphne, Allura, B Quartet, Lunarin, Fishtank, AVA, ATC, IADS and Zero Sequence would qualify under this criteria. Throw in up and coming bands who've already made a buzz in spite of not having a proper release, or who have only just released material and you'll bring up the toll considerably. I'm puzzled as to how any of those bands "don't help the scene much", don't "do [their generic sounding songs] well" or "bring the standard down". Maybe I'm just a lot more forgiving or have shit music taste, who knows.

To say that these bands don't help the scene strikes me as being shockingly dismissive and ignorant. I'd argue that the moment you start releasing music, playing shows, organising shows, going to shows, buying local releases, writing about stuff in your blogs or zines, getting your friends interested to do the same, you're contributing. and if you're in the workforce and you help bands achieve those means by either recording their music, publishing reviews and articles, using their music, playing their music at your venue, engaging them to play music at your venue, hiring them for your corporate functions, designing their artwork, being involved in the production aspects of their music videos - you are at also contributing. this is not a laundry list, it's just the most direct cause and effect type links.

So, blank, you're "trying to do your part" - by what, passing judgement on bands you've barely heard, under the guise of offering some actual advice that's worth even two cents?

You say "The scene does NEED something more interesting if it wants to move on." - easy to say. I dare say you wouldn't even know where to start if I asked you to explain yourself in greater detail - because you have no insight or real knowledge of the music industry or even at the most basic level, how to get your music released, heard and noticed. "What the scene needs" can fill volumes. It's not just "something more interesting" in the sense of some new band, or an overall change of the Singaporean mindset.

"Go do shit boy" is not an argument. I'm challenging you to do so. And I sincerely hope that when you finally do you'll actually get some reward out of it and you'll actually contribute to the positive development and growth of it. You might take away some humility from it all as well, who knows - especially when someone gives a run down of why he thinks your music or live set was rubbish.

 

[Danelectrico]

One thing, I never said bands had to be totally groundbreaking or anything, example:Nirvana. They weren't that groundbreaking musically, but they did something that deviated from what everyone was playing at the time, they did it well, and without backtracking 10 or 50 years.

Yes. They fused elements of the melvins, the pixies, mudhoney, dinosaur jr, sonic youth, flipper, meat puppets, husker du, black flag etc but more somehow they managed to make the whole package ridculously catchy and whole look and attitude a new fashion statement to the world. they were great at what they did, and to a large portion of the public they were groundbreaking...not musically to us, with the benefit of hindsight, but definitely in effect. and besides, pre internet, how many people had heard that kind of sound before?

But they were at the right place at the right time. Man, do you have any idea of how bad 80s poodle rock was? Nirvana was the antidote to that.

Also, they had one GINORMOUS marketing budget and a team that infiltrated all channels to push them the way it was. That's one big reason why they succeeded in breaking through where many of their contemporaries didn't. And it was always a toss-up between Nirvana and Dinosaur Jr anyway, everyone excepted Dinosaur Jr to be the breakthrough but nope, Geffen's choice prevailed because they spent more money on them. you couldn't get away from how huge Nirvana were.

Watch 1991: The Year Punk Broke. It's essential and quite fascinating as it tracks them in the sidelines just before their massive rise.

 

[visa]

I do like local music, it's just that I don't like most local music.

this is a winner!

 

[Danelectrico]

Visa, you're right. If this weren't so hilarious it would be way too depressing.

 

[AgingYouth]

EDIT: Something else, we need more people/organizations/labels like Aging Youth, all their bands are of good quality. More QC!

That's a very kind thing to say.

But like our door b itch extraordinaire AvonRellets has mentioned in his below post. We are pretty lucky that people actually thought we were any good. We are a bit rojak in terms of our genres as compared to the rest of our buddies in other labels.

Kitty Wu(tang Clan) Records specialises in post-rock/ avant garde electronica and random beer drinking. WakeMeUpMusic's bands have a common punk/ American indie rock thread to them, at least in my opinion. Straits Records' acts are more into hardcore while Mourning Sound Records is about pure metal and xiao-long-bao-eating in China. Kenny and Rui's The Enigmatic Army is just starting out but I see that they have a strong focus on Asian bands, being proud of that fact as well.

I guess our acts are pretty good live and entertaining to watch. That's probably our QC?

Hi!
Just to state for the record, we at Aging Youth don't exactly "QC" the bands. The bands who came under our label all started out as friends, going for gigs, drinking lots of beer and then realising "Hey I think we can trust these guys to distribute our album for us!"
I think we're just lucky that all our friends are way more talented than us.

I'd like to think that we operate by the motto of (one of my favourite rappers) Jay-Z's "what you eat don't make me shit". We try to help to put our acts into the hands of an appreciative crowd and get them a larger audience. It gets frustrating of course but we just keep tryin' and keep on truckin'.

Oh yes re: Midnight Marvel
I suppose if you're seeing them thru the eyes of the public, yeah I would agree the music is abit ... unusual. But if you take a look at who they are influenced by, maybe you will start to "get" the music.
What I do like very much about Midnight Marvel is their work ethic. Hardly a year since its inception and already, they have a website, merch to sell and good gigs. If you have the chance, talk to them, you will find that "rock out with your cock out" fire in their eyes.
How do I know that much? Well I'll be guesting as the bassist along with Terence on guitars (aka ZoRT) for Midnight Marvel for their Esplanade show on the 27 Dec along with a host of other bands! Do come down if you're free. Hopefully my playing will up their points abit.

Eh, I think Allura is playing on the same night. Need to confirm that though.

Some people like them, some people don't. If they think they haven't paid their dues. I guess a way is, if you are in a band, work harder and score better shows than MM.

In any case, I think one of our acts are primed to do a remix for Midnight Marvel... something in the vein of Euro-techno. Maybe that will go down easier.

 

[dir]

awesome if there's anything I love more than italo disco, it's euro techno!

 

[e]

I can respect the other bands, though their not really my thing, Zero Sequence, Documentary in Amber, Lunarin.
YAWA isn't on aging youth the last time I checked, regardless, I still think they aren't good.

I dunno.. if you claim to be an avid follower of music... ermm.. wouldn't you know these things/following up on new releases etc...?

My judgement on them was based on their earlier myspace tracks. Maybe I don't know everything there is to know about them, would you follow and buy the new albums of a band you didn't enjoy? No I don't think so.

That's kinda like saying if i didn't like Pablo Honey because it sounds too American Indie college rock, i won't be buying The Bends, OK Comp, Kid A, et al? A case of one strike and you're out?

I heard somewhere that Amateur Takes Control applied, and they got rejected over Midnight Marvel?
And believe me, I'm just one of the many putting Midnight Marvel down.

Not that I know of... plus ATC had just played at the Esplanade Waterfront a few months before Baybeats. And I think the bands like MM, Leeson etc all went thru an audition process. One of the clauses for audition entry was to not have played at the Esplanade before? (Correct me if I'm wrong)

And for the matter, I actually liked MM's set at Baybeats as it was something different (like a breath of fresh air from your other typical indie pop rock sounds.) Unpolished and raw I admit but isn't that the whole DIY ethos of garage punk/rock? Very reminiscent of Bikini Kill, Sleater-Kinney with a dash of The White Stripes.

 

[edder]

wow bikini kill and sleater kinney! ol skool! up your points bro e bro!

 

[AgingYouth]

What up points?

Up rep lah...

 

[blank]

blopblopblop

 

[empihsrow]

What's the point of debating how good or bad the bands/musicians in Singapore are?

 

[blank]

This is too damn long. I'll highlight the part I feel is important.
To visa: I like music, does that mean I like all music? You probably got this, but also probably have a personal grudge against me for what I think of your music.



Allura. I just think they could have a better live show, i dont think that's negative.

IADS. Does one line sound like a detailed proper review to you? They did "borrow" alot from Mogwai, your argument seems to be "Oh you don't listen to every single one of their tracks." Fact is the main bulk of their tracks are very Mogwai. Out of all the songs on their myspace right now, I'd say Machine Takes Over is probably the only one that doesn't remind me of Mogwai. Their all from the new album.

To e, it isn't one strike and you're out. It's please move on and evolve, they seem like the kind of band to do so. I'm sure their not thinking to themselves "Oooh lets rip mogwai off." But it does sound uncannily like Mogwai, but not done as well, though I wouldn't call them bad. If their newer stuff sounds good I'd say their good, I don't have anything against a name, anyone can be good.

In general, though I might have given the impression that I was saying these bands should disband and go become lawyers, I'm not. Regarding them, someone said something about finding their influences before judging them, I remember yeah yeah yeahs being at the top of their list. Definitely see bits of Karen O bleeding into her general stage persona, except not as... engaging.

Baybeats. I am part of the majority here, who thought that this year's baybeats wasn't that good. If you enjoyed it, great, good for you. I know that most younger people thought it was mediocre, people around my age.

In that regard, I think I know more than you do, it's a fact that the youth, which i am, make the bulk of the rock music scene, as supporters. And they generally feel the same about local music as i do. I don't speak for every single young person out there obviously, but most people I know don't really think highly of it.

Those bands you referred to, I think they do what they do well(most anyway), generic or not, if it sounds good, it contributes to the scene. Generic bands however, do not help as much as say, a band with fresher music which sounds good.

Sure I don't have that much knowledge of the music industry, I'm still young and willing to learn, I haven't spent half my life in it doing it all of the time. I never claimed I did, neither did I claim I knew exactly, step-by-step how to solve it. My main suggestion of a solution was asking musicians to listen to more music, not to confine themselves to genres or bands, because they might find you'll get more satisfaction out of it. Also, the scene will benefit greatly if the mindset of making fresher music is more widespread.

If you don't, and want to continue on making generic music, then go ahead, do whatever you want nothing's wrong with that. Fact is, at the end of the day, if you have shit music, generic or not, you're degrading the scene. That doesn't mean you give up on music, it means you keep trying to be better. But in Singapore, people like you and others are candy-coating criticisms and these horrible bands continue on being horrible.

Look at foreign countries, the big ones, America, Europe, Japan. Shitty bands play shitty sets and maybe their friends and mothers will tell them "The sound system was bad" or "You were great!", people won't give a shit about them. But they'll watch other bands play, and see great bands, and they'll say "I want to be like that." They'll work harder at making themselves better, being more critical of themselves, before the critics can rip into them.

Critics themselves? Do you honestly think their so nice? Go read their publications, they totally rip the horrible bands a new asshole, and essentially encourage bands to give music up. Actually, not even the horrible bands, they don't give a shit about trying their best to be objective. The biggest critics are like that. They listen to a lot, after all it's their job, and they, consciously or subconsciously, compare you with other bands.
Go check Robert Christgau out, he gives one line reviews and a grade, for entire albums. Pitchfork? For Jet's new album they put a youtube video of a monkey drinking his own piss, not sure actually, but there was a monkey in the video. Go send I am david sparkle to pitchfork, they would give them hell, no doubt about it.

And they definitely do not give a shit whether it's your first or twentieth album, they judge it as it is, they judge the entire band if it's their first record, they really do not give a damn about whether you cry yourself to sleep. They also don't care if you worked hard on it, have a dying passion for music.
The bands might get depressed and take a break, but they come back stronger and better, because they don't want to experience the same thing. Especially the newer bands.

Also, being involved in the scene so long, you probably recognize all the hard work put in and all that other shit. But at the end of the day, mediocre music is mediocre. It doesn't matter if the band spent 12 hours a day for 4 months writing songs and recording them. If it sounds bad, it is bad. And I think you're mixing in your own personal feelings with their music. You might talk crap about the Oddfellows, but only because their baybeats set was pretty obviously terrible. Regarding the Oddfellows, their probably the perfect example of this... bleeding of sentimentality into one's opinion of their music. Sure, everyone does that, but not to this extent.

I think most SG bands have the benefit of having critics with either 1.Low expectations or 2.Really really really nice personalities. Benefit being, a benefit to them so they don't get sad, but their music, not so much benefit to that.


Summary:Most, not all. Let me repeat, not all (for your skimming tendencies) but most local music is mediocre, or terrible. If you want to debate that, go do a survey of 1000 kids who listen to rock music on a below regular to above regular basis. Ask them what they think of local rock music, I guarantee you at least 800 of them will go "no hope la, go overseas."

The last part about Nirvana. Yes, they had marketability, but they had great music that's undeniable. Can you name a single band that Nirvana just pulled all of their music out of? Yes, Kurt did admit he just tried to rip the Pixies off, but his and the other band members' influences bled in, and the only thing he probably ripped off a fair bit was the soft-loud dynamic, which wasn't really created by the pixies in the first place.

I see you as an older guy on his high horse, there's really no end to this argument because you have your mind closed up and you don't really discuss anything, but I do so to defend your clouded accusations. I'm pretty open, I've discovered new things in this thread and changed my mind about various things, but I'm sticking by my main point.

You skim through my posts and pick out things, spin them, then give your condescending ageist response, primary focus to put me down.
You must think you're older and have everything figured out, but try understanding different opinions and viewpoints before going off on your subtle tirades. But it seems the older you get, the more you love to go "Oh man, look at this kid."
I hope I don't turn out like that. Get off my lawn!" with a shotgun in hand, ready to blow apart whatever any younger person says because it isn't sprinkled with pixie dust and suited to their liking, and more importantly, 'this kid isn't old enough to understand, all kids are too ignorant to have opinions, they have to know that back in the da....'
But I just might, who knows?

 

[ATC]

To Mr Blank.

To Blank:

Sorry to disappoint you but the real musicians here in Singapore don't really care about what you think cause we have been there and done that and the days of pleasing the listeners, especially like you, have been left behind. We don't owe our music to you, so we will not change what we believe or play, for you, or anyone else for that matter. You're really not doing anyone any favour by being myopic about music, especially about the bands here in Singapore.

You have your rights and opinions but you have nothing to prove and honestly speaking, you cannot change anything. Unless, of course, you come up with a kickass album and release it, then that will be a different ball game. I'm not saying that with arrogance, rather with encouragement.

So, think about it and please do yourself and all of us a favour and stop your nonsense cause we're not gonna listen to you.

Also, Amateur Takes Control did not audition for baybeats, nor did we sign up for it. Since you heard it from "somewhere", it's either your "somewhere" got their facts wrong or you have a problem with your listening.

To end this post, I'd like to let the music do the talking.

Amateur Takes Control - www.myspace.com/amateurtakescontrol
A Band Named Power - www.myspace.com/abandnamedpower

Peace and respect,
Adel
Amateur Takes Control
A Band Named Power

 

[visa]

To visa: I like music, does that mean I like all music?

The reason what you said is funny is because of proportion.

Suppose I like prawns. But I don't like don't like crab, I don't like fish, I don't like seaweed, I don't like shrimp, I don't like calamari. Sashimi sucks, and bouillabaisse is absolutely disgusting!

But I like seafood! Because I like prawns. But I don't like anything else!

You say you like TWO local bands, out of potentially thousands. That renders your statement rather useless. And yet you defend your specific statement by reverting to the general.

You probably got this, but also probably have a personal grudge against me for what I think of your music.

Think again! My band is called Armchair Critic precisely because we don't give a damn about what people like you have to say I don't lose any sleep at night if you don't come to our shows or don't listen to our music. There are many other people who do, and I'd much rather focus my energy on listening to them.

'this kid isn't old enough to understand, all kids are too ignorant to have opinions, they have to know that back in the da....' But I just might, who knows?

You may. You may not. But since you personally don't seem to want to get involved or do anything about it, nobody actually cares. Your opinion is of no consequence at all.

If you feel you have the right to judge others, then others have just as much of a right to judge you. Don't think so highly of yourself when you have accomplished... what have you accomplished?

If you're going to say "I don't need to accomplish anything to have an opinion", well, nobody needs to care about anything you have to say. Have fun feeling self-important! Nobody will miss you when you're gone.

 

[GlypH]

my take is.honestly. the local scene here. hasn't gt any original bands up to 'breakout' and 'woah' standards. lotsa ppl think of that too. sad but true.

 

[halfastepdown]

One day some band will! That I'm sure.

Who's gonna be the first?

 

[visa]

Blank:

Your heart is in the right place. You want people to stop being so mediocre and to shoot for higher standards. You want to see less hand-holding and bootlicking, and more brutal honesty.

But you will accomplish nothing with your approach, except perhaps get yourself resented and disliked. Alot of parents do this to their children and wonder what went wrong.

Ask yourself what you really want. Do you want to make a difference? If you do, ask yourself if there's a better way to do it, because what you're doing right now clearly isn't working. If you don't, and you simply want to state your opinions and ideals in the face of the big-bad-dumb-condescending scene or to 'stick-it-to-the-Man' then you're going to get exactly what you're getting now.

In case you still think I have something personal against you, let me clarify that I don't. We're both above this kind of petty "I don't friend you, you don't friend me" nonsense. Be logical, and maybe do a little soul-searching.

-Visa

 

[daryl]

picking picking picking. i for one am all for critics. you guys are disappointing me.

ok so, some guy comes in with guns blazing and insulting most local bands. you guys, the musicians, get pissed off and insult him back.

why are you guys all sounding so pissed off? this has become a 'let's flame blank' thread. for one, i am feeling rather sad you guys are dismissing all his claims based on several faulty ones.

let's take him as an average listener of local music. since he doesn't seem to be much involved. his attitude towards local music, i must say, mirrors the attitude i notice in my peers. why are you guys ignoring the fact that most people out there think local music sucks? i mean, compared to what the international scene has to offer, singapore's standard of music is bad. dodge this bullet for me to see. dodge it.

 

[soft]

Slowly, it takes time. First, we must have mass (5000 bands) and filter out 50 best (1%). Then we will have an industry to work on.

 

[dir]

this is getting out of hand, I think everyone will have an easier time understanding if they see that mr blank is looking at the local scene through grey-colored glasses which he has fashioned himself and refuses to take off.

@dan: thanks for the insight, i find myself agreeing with a lot of your well-articulated points. I feel that the IP model absolutely has to evolve, and not just in the context of music, but also media. Mega corporations are profiting at the expense of the consumers and artists Though if there's going to be any change at all, the government will have to intervene at some point.