Pay to play...or not?
- Thread starter trippyfactory
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Tetragrammaton
Member
To pay for an audition? Aiyah...where got such thing? When an agent or organizer ask me to pay for an audition...there's only one thing in my mind. That agent or organizer is just starting up and no contact to put any band in any place to earn money. He wants to earn some first. Only inexperience or eager people will fall for that trap.
With more than 20 years in the musical industry both local and overseas, I have never encountered such stupid offer. If ever, I will tell them to just go away and don't bother me. Hehehe!! Waste time to pay for an audition. Get this straight....you don't pay to show off your talent...you got paid for it. When you do it for fun or for the right reason it's a different issue. I have never paid to play for any gigs. But I have played for many events not getting paid for a cause I deemed worthwhile. Like World Aids Day, Cancer Day, etc.
Likewise, I am also part of the SBCS committee and I feel doing this the right way to go.
By the way, when I mean overseas....that was the time when I was studying abroad many-many years ago to earn some cash. Though we were some unknown band in Europe at that time only me an Asian, we got paid to do road trips. We didn't spend a single cent.
Say No to pay for audition or gigs!! That's a whole crappy thing to do.
Saluti!
Tetragrammaton
With more than 20 years in the musical industry both local and overseas, I have never encountered such stupid offer. If ever, I will tell them to just go away and don't bother me. Hehehe!! Waste time to pay for an audition. Get this straight....you don't pay to show off your talent...you got paid for it. When you do it for fun or for the right reason it's a different issue. I have never paid to play for any gigs. But I have played for many events not getting paid for a cause I deemed worthwhile. Like World Aids Day, Cancer Day, etc.
Likewise, I am also part of the SBCS committee and I feel doing this the right way to go.
By the way, when I mean overseas....that was the time when I was studying abroad many-many years ago to earn some cash. Though we were some unknown band in Europe at that time only me an Asian, we got paid to do road trips. We didn't spend a single cent.
Say No to pay for audition or gigs!! That's a whole crappy thing to do.
Saluti!
Tetragrammaton
reason to my post being so blunt. support for local music is not going anywhere if u ask me. SAC thinks rock is not art. Name me a band that is big in Singapore and their achievements. I can only think of Impiety which has quite a FANbase in europe and the states...and prolly most parts of the world. Other than that Indie/Alternative bands which are known to be "big" here in Singapore has no reputation in foreign waters. Yes they have gone abroad but are they remembered? CDs in demand globally....i doubt it unless someone can prove me wrong. Many local artists that make it big here goes to a foreign country...make it big there, then become big in Singapore and many parts of the world.
Singfest is another issue. No local bands were given much media attention etc. Baybeats? thats it. So why play in singapore when theres no prospect of it at all. As for the bands/artists, i think some of the bands are capable of making it big elsewhere. Im not saying we have no talent...just lacking the support. I am also sad to say ROCK is dying here in Singapore. I went to hard rock cafe and theyre playing freakin top40s. Its bloody sad i tell you. Don't talk about the overseas acts that are coming to singapore....that is for sure the only think to look forward to when it comes to rock music. But what about our locals?
This is just my opinion and you can disagree with me, but this is what i feel about Singapore's Prospect of Playing ORIGINAL music. Do not waste too much time and effort to play a show in singapore. If u have offers...take them but dont be looking around to play shows...theres no point really. Maybe as an exposure to show that ur band exists...sure why not...but to keep playing here...no point!
This leads to the link of paying to play for gigs. Do not be too desperate for a show thatll bring you nothing much if you have such high potential. Most people here prefer the western commercial music rather than real music.
I'm saying don't give up...work hard if u have a band...but go overseas and ull be appreciated more.
PS: Im not a pessimist but prove me wrong guys... facts and figures...give me some..
Singfest is another issue. No local bands were given much media attention etc. Baybeats? thats it. So why play in singapore when theres no prospect of it at all. As for the bands/artists, i think some of the bands are capable of making it big elsewhere. Im not saying we have no talent...just lacking the support. I am also sad to say ROCK is dying here in Singapore. I went to hard rock cafe and theyre playing freakin top40s. Its bloody sad i tell you. Don't talk about the overseas acts that are coming to singapore....that is for sure the only think to look forward to when it comes to rock music. But what about our locals?
This is just my opinion and you can disagree with me, but this is what i feel about Singapore's Prospect of Playing ORIGINAL music. Do not waste too much time and effort to play a show in singapore. If u have offers...take them but dont be looking around to play shows...theres no point really. Maybe as an exposure to show that ur band exists...sure why not...but to keep playing here...no point!
This leads to the link of paying to play for gigs. Do not be too desperate for a show thatll bring you nothing much if you have such high potential. Most people here prefer the western commercial music rather than real music.
I'm saying don't give up...work hard if u have a band...but go overseas and ull be appreciated more.
PS: Im not a pessimist but prove me wrong guys... facts and figures...give me some..
MadWerewolfBoy
New member
Yes, truth hurts, and i'm glad i'm constantly being reminded of it.
No major label to headhunt for talents here, not much money is invested in advertising talents here. Reason being, no matter how we wish people here to be our targeted audience, they just don't fall in that category.
The only real paying people are people who go to nightspots with live performances, they pay the bands through the buying of the venue's drinks and food. Another type of sustenance for bands are corporate events. And for a solo musician, a viable career would be to teach. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think most, if not all, full time musicians here belong to one of these three categories. Most other musicians are earning their dough doing another job or are hobbyist.
Getting signed up by a label, touring around in a band bus going from city to city, playing to people at concert venues, selling albums. If a local band can do just these to survive, they're definitely not doing it here. It is sort of sad that this option is not available to people aspiring to be full time musicians in singapore.
Ultimately, full time musicians here equal to either playing at nightspots on a regular basis, playing at coporate events fairly regularly or teaching during the day, perform during the night. Cutting and album would be fun but profits from it will be close to zilch if it's only released locally. Just ask dave from electrico.
I don't think this will differ too much even if a really good band tried playing at pay to play gigs to get famous as fame is capped, by the population who appreciate local bands here, and by the $ they are willing to part for the band's materials.
I don't have first hand experience, but I do have a feeling that bands ultimately make more profit from playing at gigs than selling albums. for that to happen, of course there must be some sort of income like ticket sale, or merch sale, or drinks/food sale, together with keeping cost as low as possible from sponsors for things such as venue, equipment and other $ sucking stuff.
Back to topic, i think most of us are more against greedy organisers who are "lazy" (for not ensuring income is generated and cost is kept low, ie no sponsors, no marketing) and are organising gigs for young, naive and gullible bands. Not saying all pay to play organisers are like that, but generally these organisers organise pay to play gigs and thus the stigma. i have worked with such organisers (as an organiser myself, with them, organising for, ironically, our bands) and i've heard many skewed reasons on why we should keep the profits and not pay bands (our friends) after suggesting to them that we should pay. I was neutral to pay to play gigs previously, but now, after going through the process of organising a fairly profitable gig and not paying the bands, as a musician myself, i feel strongly against this.
the most screwed up thing was, the bands themselves didn't know they got cheated as they thought they were just helping out friends and performing for fun. cheated, that is a strong word, but that's what it really is.
imo, if an organiser is clean, they should be transparent with the money they handle. if one is not organising gigs for the profits, then show the bands, your clients, the accounts! let them have an idea of what's going on, how much they're making, how much the organiser is earning, what were the costs, where did the $ from sponsors go. don't be dodgy with a simple statement assuring bands that "i'm not organising this for the money, it's for your exposure". I'm a typical pragmatic local and i certainly don't buy words, I wanna see figures.
trippyfactory
New member
Olivia Ong
Hah, FGL. Keep up with the times, bro. Olivia Ong is one hot thing from Singapore who speaks with an American accent and sings Bossa Nova covers in the beginning of her career. She's getting quite a lot of media attention and obejectively speaking, she's quite good.
P.s. She's responsible for the theme song from "Little Nonya".
You FGL Kaki Nangs will do just fine! All the best.
TF
Hah, FGL. Keep up with the times, bro. Olivia Ong is one hot thing from Singapore who speaks with an American accent and sings Bossa Nova covers in the beginning of her career. She's getting quite a lot of media attention and obejectively speaking, she's quite good.
P.s. She's responsible for the theme song from "Little Nonya".
You FGL Kaki Nangs will do just fine! All the best.
TF
trippyfactory
New member
Hey there, Tetragrammaton.
Some of your thoughts I agree, some I don't.
Let's start with the positive note: World Aids Day, Cancer Day are shows for charity. As an organizer for charity events, they will invite bands to play and not charge any "audition fee" or "registration fee". If you find any a**h**es organizers who charges for charity - you tell us. We'll all boycott them.
When I was overseas studying, I go to auditions to get to perform in pubs/clubs/student events and I don't pay a single cent too. There may or may not be an audition fee / registration fee, but you'll have to get invited or impress the organizers somehow that you are able to pull in the crowd for the event.
I was able to get gigs after gigs, because the organizers know that I can attract the Asian crowds to support the bars/restaurants to boost their F&B sale. Through word of mouth, the crowd gets bigger and the pay check gets bigger.
Any sane organizers for a serious event wouldn't be inviting any tom, dick or harry bands, knowing that there are 1000s of others who are equally passionate about showing off their talents. What makes your super musically talented band different from the others? It's all about selling yourselves, bro.
Besides, no serious bands want to play in front of an empty crowd, right?
Auditioning with or without fees, it's just a matter of opportunity cost. If renting of the venue for audition is free, and the organizer has nothing better to do, chances are it'll be free. But if the rental of a jam studio (for example) and the organizer actually has a work committment (to make real money) - then some kind of token in return is only fair right?
Once again, organizers CAN'T make REAL money by collecting $35 bucks per band. ** OH COME ON! ** Some people make 100 times more in one hour by clicking some buttons on the SGX's website.
In Trippy Factory's POV, auditioning (with our without fees) is just a matter of showing respect and seriousness to the gig. We strive for quality control. Watching you tube and listening to myspace is just not accurate enough to judge a band.
Spending some time to see them live and interviewing them is just one of the more accurate ways to guage if the bands fit the bill.
Finally, it's just a matter of perspective. It's either you are with it. you are against it or you are neutral with it.
All the best in your vision and belief, Tetragrammaton.
Kindest,
TF
fgl
Well-known member
yeah we fgl kaki nangers a bit behind time lah ...lolz - does she do your p2p gigs too? honestly I donno who she is ...
fgl
Well-known member
yah ... but sometimes even after you pay to go into the sale you end up buying nothing ...
fyan
New member
true true. hahah. but wouldnt that like ermm...make 'em bands think twice before wanting to audition cause they gotta be "good" so that they erm dont waste money? :O no bitter soup intended, just a cat's curiosity
dodgethis
New member
She started her career as a member of the trio Mirai, more than ten years ago.
trippyfactory
New member
Olivia Ong
Phew. At least one person in this discussion knows who I am referring to.
Mirai's album is for sale at 3 for 5 bucks at Gramophone in Cathay. Grab it before it's sold out! Haha...
Phew. At least one person in this discussion knows who I am referring to.
Mirai's album is for sale at 3 for 5 bucks at Gramophone in Cathay. Grab it before it's sold out! Haha...
dodgethis
New member
Because unlike most musicians here, she actually has a proper career in the industry. Yes, that was an intended low blow.
Tetragrammaton
Member
No wonder I don't her too!! Hehehe!!! Act good or claimed good are all not in my list of musicians circle of friends. But honestly, I've never heard her in the night scene. Maybe TV, I don't know lah...cause I don't watch TV now a days.
But as I've said earlier on other thread, these "pay to play or pay to audition" organizers will still have their market of people. Whatever their reason is not valid to me. It's like trying to deny a wet thread. Those who still wants to pay to play, please do so. We on the other hand are not trying to be any "policemen". We don't believe in gaining money from young bands that are starting out. It's easy if we all wanna gain money from this. We get the place for free for an example, get the bands to sell tickets and if tickets not sold they have to buy it in order to play. A ticket sell at $15 and $2 for the band. That's earning money? Come on lah!! And then we can promise them a recording label will be around to check out the bands. More "high profile" gigs for selected bands? Please come to reality. We all know about the record label now a days. In my time, I've recorded a few too with some record label but there....still no one knows me from which band I was in the 80's. What "high profile" gigs? Play in Esplanade considered high profile? Get paid $20 per person good enough already? Don't be a kotek ar....the organizers are earning.
Our objectives are different from those pay to play organizers. We want people to get together in music. Share and learn from each other. Try to tolerate the genres others are playing at the same time try to appreciate it all. We have no high profile gigs in the coming future as we are here for the facts. But we do have season players coming by and by to check out. The most the bands end up in some night scene if they are lucky and want to. If not we are just here for some clean fun to build a bigger circles of musician friends.
I think, everyone has every right to choose what is best for them. We at SBCS are having the same mind in what we do. Our Chairman is James himself. And to think, if soft.com were to charge some kind of payments...would any of us be here in the first place? Cause the objectives are different, that's why things are made free for all.
Saluti!
Tetragrammaton
trippyfactory
New member
Different Games , Different Views
Tetragrammaton, like I mentioned - we have different views and different games to play.
What you are doing and your intention is very noble and I respect and admire that. Sincerely.
What Trippy Factory is setting out to do is simply to cover all cost (including opportunity cost) if we can make a little bit, even better.
How much do think it's a fair price (hehehe..NTUC) to pay to each member? The last time I heard *Scape is only paying $50 bucks per band. Which means, Trippy Factory is almost paying 100% more in the amatuer market.
When you work in a company and agreed to a fix salary, do you get jealous when your company is successful and surpass it's budget over $1million dollars?
And you do you ask "how come parts of that 1 million dollars of PATMI (Profit after minority interest and taxes) doesn't come to me?"
Of course not, the company would have debated that you have agreed to your fix salary and we've paid off your bonuses and 13th month, be thankful!
Back to the context of selling tickets: When a band agreed to be paid $100 but ask for a little bit more from us when the ticket sales from the band has surpass it's given target- we'd gladly consider.
But most of the bands we've worked with did not succeed. Some even shrug their shoulders and gave me back the stack of 25 tickets they were suppose to sell.
5 tickets per member to sell in 4 months, can't even do it? It's sad to learn that they don't even have 5 friends each who would support them individually. Or are they just plain lazy?
When the organizers can't even break even, how to pay the band members more?
Trippy Factory will unravel more in due course on why the upcoming Black Revelations 2011 is a little bit more "high profile" then the rest of the gigs. In the meantime, just hold your horses on the negative comments.
Kindest,
TF
Tetragrammaton, like I mentioned - we have different views and different games to play.
What you are doing and your intention is very noble and I respect and admire that. Sincerely.
What Trippy Factory is setting out to do is simply to cover all cost (including opportunity cost) if we can make a little bit, even better.
How much do think it's a fair price (hehehe..NTUC) to pay to each member? The last time I heard *Scape is only paying $50 bucks per band. Which means, Trippy Factory is almost paying 100% more in the amatuer market.
When you work in a company and agreed to a fix salary, do you get jealous when your company is successful and surpass it's budget over $1million dollars?
And you do you ask "how come parts of that 1 million dollars of PATMI (Profit after minority interest and taxes) doesn't come to me?"
Of course not, the company would have debated that you have agreed to your fix salary and we've paid off your bonuses and 13th month, be thankful!
Back to the context of selling tickets: When a band agreed to be paid $100 but ask for a little bit more from us when the ticket sales from the band has surpass it's given target- we'd gladly consider.
But most of the bands we've worked with did not succeed. Some even shrug their shoulders and gave me back the stack of 25 tickets they were suppose to sell.
5 tickets per member to sell in 4 months, can't even do it? It's sad to learn that they don't even have 5 friends each who would support them individually. Or are they just plain lazy?
When the organizers can't even break even, how to pay the band members more?
Trippy Factory will unravel more in due course on why the upcoming Black Revelations 2011 is a little bit more "high profile" then the rest of the gigs. In the meantime, just hold your horses on the negative comments.
Kindest,
TF
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trippyfactory
New member
The amount we've collected so far is not even enough to cover my cost. What kind of earning are you referring to?
After paying for the venue, the utilities, rental of equipments, the bands, publicity materials and most of all, the TIME SPENT - I don't even break even. I make a lost most of the time.
Doing gigs in Singapore is a thankless job - and that's why I only organize once a year.
I salute to all the bands who share the same vision as I do. To the rest who doesn't, perhaps this discussion can make you think a little harder.
Best,
TF
Tetragrammaton
Member
There is nothing wrong on your part since you have cost to cover. By doing the math, I know you don't earn that much or probably break even. But you are diverting what you said earlier. You are saying that people like us who do events without charging are not being practical as in long run our pockets will run dry. I have said repeatedly we get sponsors. We don't fork out any money except our time there as it is our passion to see that bands have their share to be given such opportunity.
We are not eager to get a place and pay but then not charging the band any thing. Yours are different, you pay for your venues and things like that. But don't you poke on people who can do it for free. You will still have your market of people and we care less on that. What crap are you talking about NTUC voucher? We are not businessmen and we're here not to make a profit. You go make that profit if you can. It is your call!! None will challenge their employers why this why that. It is totally irrelevant. Stick to the points and you have yours. We value your points if said accordingly if you read the first paragraph I've written. Your cost and things like that. But you branding others to be this that is not a nice gestures to do some discussion. You can state clearly, the reason you charge because......this..that...what cork lah. No one is gonna say as what have been said earlier. Since you are the threadstarter, you'd probably want to see what people's view.
So, you as a professional gig organizer should see this as something you can improve in times to come.
Saluti!
Tetragrammaton
We are not eager to get a place and pay but then not charging the band any thing. Yours are different, you pay for your venues and things like that. But don't you poke on people who can do it for free. You will still have your market of people and we care less on that. What crap are you talking about NTUC voucher? We are not businessmen and we're here not to make a profit. You go make that profit if you can. It is your call!! None will challenge their employers why this why that. It is totally irrelevant. Stick to the points and you have yours. We value your points if said accordingly if you read the first paragraph I've written. Your cost and things like that. But you branding others to be this that is not a nice gestures to do some discussion. You can state clearly, the reason you charge because......this..that...what cork lah. No one is gonna say as what have been said earlier. Since you are the threadstarter, you'd probably want to see what people's view.
So, you as a professional gig organizer should see this as something you can improve in times to come.
Saluti!
Tetragrammaton
mockingbird
New member
^ Very well said.
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