Muslims and alcohol
- Thread starter fgl
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THOA
New member
Ah then this is where things get a little more complicated.
In the IDEAL sense of it, faith dictates that we know our religion well. That we know our holy texts, that we do what should be done and avoid what should be avoided. In the IDEAL sense, if everyone knows the faith inside out, there is minimal need of a religious leader. There's more need for social leaders.
But as time went by, more and more people are less and less knowledgeable of the religion because slowly we are losing interest in it. And thus those who chose to thoroughly stick through with the faith are naturally selected as "leaders" simply cos they know more.
Yes, we gave them that power, because we are ignorant as compared to them. But are we born ignorant and are we limited to not knowing? No, we can learn and be as knowledgeable, and can even be better than them as leaders. But who is bothering to do that these days?
Of course there are misguided individuals who use that power vested in them to misguide others. An extreme example are terrorists leaders. It might not even be that they are spurned by greed or madness. Sometimes it is truly because they thought they are serving the will of a higher being. In a less extreme sense, there are those who use religion for personal gains, and we chose to blindly follow cos we are ignorant about the faith. How do we counter that? By knowing the faith as well or even better. Again, who's bothering?
Do note that these people job scopes not only serve to punish. But they are also to serve to aid eg a Catholic priest listens to confessions, an Muslim imam leads prayers on Friday etc. These people are tasked to serve a community. It's like how a government works. Is anyone debating about who gave them the power to exercise the punishment of the law on us?
So the context of this topic basically revolves around this: the punishment for an act which is deemed to be socially accepted in general is deemed too severe, irregardless of whether the faith sees it as a serious or not. That's how this debate got started.
I say, if you are the follower of the faith, and if there are examples from within the context of the faith (in this case the Muslim's Koran), that shows why the PUNISHMENT itself wrong, and that there are other ways to deal the crime, let it be known to the leaders. Otherwise, we are complaining about how religion is unfair about this and that, when we don't even bother knowing.
If you are NOT the follower of the faith, however, well... this is how the faith dictates the punishment is. Faith itself is beyond reasons, so why bother asking for one?
THOA
New member
Then it is up to someone in Malaysia with high faith and deeds to challenge that dogma. Fire with fire. Knowledge with knowledge.
We who are of ill knowledge about the faith can only sit, watch, complain, lambast and blame. We are not even Malaysians.
Personally what really ticked me off is how the media even had to jump on this as a controversy. I quote from the article itself:
"It's rare but it's within the law and Muslims are subject to such law in this country," lawyer Pawancheek Merican, a sharia law committee member of the Malaysian Bar Council, told AFP.
We have stranger laws in other countries than this.
We who are of ill knowledge about the faith can only sit, watch, complain, lambast and blame. We are not even Malaysians.
Personally what really ticked me off is how the media even had to jump on this as a controversy. I quote from the article itself:
"It's rare but it's within the law and Muslims are subject to such law in this country," lawyer Pawancheek Merican, a sharia law committee member of the Malaysian Bar Council, told AFP.
We have stranger laws in other countries than this.
dir
New member
^Because people undoubtedly equate criticising religious laws to criticizing their faith, and that's a tad too uncomfortable for many. As mentioned before, The God Delusion book by Richard Dawkins is really good reading material, especially to anyone questioning the idea of faith and morality.
THOA
New member
I'm not saying it is wrong. I'm saying that it is not as simple as you think. It's fine if it's just the law, but now it ties to faith and religion and here's where the issue gets touchy.
When you criticize the law, it is inevitable that the faith bit steps in. So who then do we blame? The law, or the faith? This thread has already got out hand when the faith bit comes in, but it is inevitable. Problem comes when:
1) people start to use "reason" to question the faith, OR
2) people start using faith as the "reason"
When you have little to no knowledge about the faith itself, does that make us qualified to question such a law? I know I am not. I'm not supporting the punishment, but I know I have very little back up with me to say that I am against it.
fgl
Well-known member
points up - good reply!
We have Saddam who's been hung. And Osama who's being hunted by thousands of men with guns.
Religious leaders have money/respect/power. A combination of those 3, or even just 2, one can get away with anything, a lot like the N.Korea leaders. Drinking fancy red wine and plotting to start a nuclear program while his citizens starve...
dir
New member
Terrorism is a serious offence everywhere. However religious leaders hold more political influence than the government in some states, so it's not as black and white as you think when terrorists get caught. What constitutes terrorism in itself is a big debate.
Post some facts other than anecdotal evidence for the marriage of 12 year old girls to religious leaders.
Stop trolling or try harder next time.
fgl
Well-known member
same as the ruling party in Afghanistan which prohibits women from getting an education ... according to their religious beliefs.
or cultures that advocate the "honour" killing of their daughters / sisters etc who were rape victim ...the victims die to save the family's "honour"
I'm at a loss .....
or cultures that advocate the "honour" killing of their daughters / sisters etc who were rape victim ...the victims die to save the family's "honour"
I'm at a loss .....
hecklerkoch
New member
Sorry, I attribute your posting largely as ignorance, with a possible intention to cause disharmony by contributing controversial opinions.
Taken from Wikipedia -
In the Siriono culture of South America, a girl may marry before she reaches puberty. The Murnigin girl of Australia is likely to become a wife when her breasts first begin to develop and a boy might marry for the first time when his beard begins to appear. A Lepcha girl in Tibet is sometimes married at eight years of age, while boys are often married when they are 12 years old.
Boys marry at 15 years of age or less in 10 percent of 58 societies. Another 42 percent marry between 16 and 19 years of age. Thirty-eight percent are married in their twenties, and 10 percent marry when they are 30 years of age. (Ayer) But why are people pushing their children to marry at a young age across the cultures? Scientists and psychologists made a discovery in 1963 that in traditional societies, boys and girls have usually begun to do serious work well before they reach puberty. Girls are often doing womanly work at a certain age: cooking, weaving, gardening, taking care of their siblings when they are the earliest age of six to the age of nine even earlier at three or four. Boys on the other hand, learn how to farm, herd, and hunt before they reach manhood.
Mothers and Fathers attempt their children to choose their potential loved ones, but about 70% of their decisions are their parents. Parents who fail to marry a child at the proper age are thought to be neglecting their responsibilities, with their reputations suffered. Across cultures, females tend to be married earlier than males. Boys are married later than girls in 85 percent of 45 cultures.
Please do not mistake this as condoning of any child marriages involving a man of power and a helpless child forced into the situation by poverty or other reasons.
We all need to see beyond what we see in our own little worlds, either by personal choice or otherwise (because some people only see the things they want to see and hear the thing they only want to hear) and that the world does not revolve around this little island of Singapore only.
On the subject of terrorism, I honestly will ensure I do everything that needs to be done (within the law of course), if my fellow Singaporean like Mas Selamat Kastari is found guilty beyond doubt, that he has plans and is already in the process of creating mass destruction that'll probably hurt me, my loved ones. my friends and my fellow Singaporeans.
There is no doubt about that whatsoever.
Of course it would be wrong to think that these problems are confined to Islam.
Take the continuing problem of pedophilia and sexual abuse amongst catholic church clergy,
or the polygamist marriages amongst Mormons,
or the allegations of sexual abuse and murder surrounding hindu guru Sai Baba,
or the cambodian budhist monk charged with rape
dioswkg
New member
Well I'm not sure if there is any verse in the Bible that somehow "allows" clergy to misinterpret it so that they can perform sexual act on young kids cos afterall I'm a Muslim man :mrgreen:.
I do know that 'jihad' is not a word to be use freely as Osama has been using or marrying more than 1 is to be practice as ... say praying 5 times a day.
I read it from somewhere that a married Hindu man and his lover in India, convert to Muslims because Islam allows man to marry more than 1. This is what I'm referring to - People takes what is written in the Qur’an to suit them.
And "cambodian budhist monk charged with rape" well that is a rape case. No religion involved in it right? Just because he is a monk we have to bring in his religion into the rape case?
I do know that 'jihad' is not a word to be use freely as Osama has been using or marrying more than 1 is to be practice as ... say praying 5 times a day.
I read it from somewhere that a married Hindu man and his lover in India, convert to Muslims because Islam allows man to marry more than 1. This is what I'm referring to - People takes what is written in the Qur’an to suit them.
And "cambodian budhist monk charged with rape" well that is a rape case. No religion involved in it right? Just because he is a monk we have to bring in his religion into the rape case?
fgl
Well-known member
Bin Laden urges jihad against Israel
By LEE KEATH,Associated Press Writer AP - Thursday, January 15 CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden urged Muslims to launch a jihad against Israel and condemned Arab governments as allies of the Jewish state in a new message aimed at harnessing anger in the Mideast over the Gaza offensive.
Bin Laden spoke in an audiotape posted Wednesday on Islamic militant Web sites where al-Qaida usually issues its messages. It was his first tape since May and came nearly three weeks after Israel started its campaign against Gaza's militant Hamas rulers.
The al-Qaida leader also vowed that the terror network would open "new fronts" against the United States and its allies beyond Iraq and Afghanistan. He said President-elect Barack Obama has received a "heavy inheritance" from George W. Bush _ two wars and "the collapse of the economy," which he said will render the United States unable to sustain a long fight against the mujahedeen, or holy warriors.
"There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God," bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, referring to the revered Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. "The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades."
"Islamic nation, you are capable of defeating the Zionist entity with your popular capabilities and your great hidden strength _ without the support of (Arab) leaders and despite the fact that most of (the leaders) stand in the barracks of the Crusader-Zionist alliance," bin Laden said.
The authenticity of the tape could not be independently confirmed, but the voice resembled that of bin Laden in previous messages.
The White House dismissed the tape, saying it reflected bin Laden's "isolation" and shows the al-Qaida leader is trying to remain relevant at a time when his ideology and mission are being questioned and challenged.
The tape, entitled "a call for jihad to stop the aggression on Gaza," was played over a still picture of bin Laden and the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem's Old City, one of Islam's holiest sites. But there were no English subtitles and flashy production graphics that usually accompany such messages.
That suggested the message had been hastily put together and issued to best exploit anger in the region over the Gaza offensive, which Palestinian medical officials say has killed more than 940 Palestinians, half of them civilians. Israel said the offensive aims to halt rocket fire from Gaza against Israeli towns.
Bin Laden accused Arab leaders of "avoiding their responsibility" to liberate Palestine.
"If you are not convinced to fight, then open the way to those who are convinced," he said.
Bin Laden and his lieutenants frequently use the Palestinian issue to try to rally support for al-Qaida and often call for holy war to free Jerusalem. But there has been little sign that the terror group has carried out attacks in Israel.
Bin Laden made no direct reference to Hamas, which seized power in Gaza in 2007. Al-Qaida leaders have frequently criticized the Islamic militant group for participating in elections and failing to seriously pursue jihad against Israel.
The al-Qaida leader also said the world economic crisis was a sign that the United States' power was falling apart.
"The Islamic nation's jihad is one of the main causes of these destructive results for our enemies," he claimed.
Pointing to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, bin Laden said al-Qaida was prepared to fight "for seven more years, and seven more after that, then seven more."
"We are on the way to opening new fronts," he said, urging Muslims to "join hands with the mujahedeen to continue the jihad against the enemy, to continue bleeding them on these two fronts and on the others that are open to you."
"The question is, can America continue the war against us for several more decades? The reports and signs show us otherwise," he said. He said Bush had left his successor "with a heavy inheritance," forcing Obama to choose between withdrawing from the wars or continuing.
"If he withdraws from the war, it is a military defeat. If he continues, he drowns in economic crisis," bin Laden said.
It was the first time bin Laden have spoken of Obama, though he did not mention him by name. Bin Laden's top deputy Ayman al-Zawahri has previously spoken against Obama, warning Muslims he will not bring major change in U.S. policies.
By LEE KEATH,Associated Press Writer AP - Thursday, January 15 CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden urged Muslims to launch a jihad against Israel and condemned Arab governments as allies of the Jewish state in a new message aimed at harnessing anger in the Mideast over the Gaza offensive.
Bin Laden spoke in an audiotape posted Wednesday on Islamic militant Web sites where al-Qaida usually issues its messages. It was his first tape since May and came nearly three weeks after Israel started its campaign against Gaza's militant Hamas rulers.
The al-Qaida leader also vowed that the terror network would open "new fronts" against the United States and its allies beyond Iraq and Afghanistan. He said President-elect Barack Obama has received a "heavy inheritance" from George W. Bush _ two wars and "the collapse of the economy," which he said will render the United States unable to sustain a long fight against the mujahedeen, or holy warriors.
"There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God," bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, referring to the revered Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. "The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades."
"Islamic nation, you are capable of defeating the Zionist entity with your popular capabilities and your great hidden strength _ without the support of (Arab) leaders and despite the fact that most of (the leaders) stand in the barracks of the Crusader-Zionist alliance," bin Laden said.
The authenticity of the tape could not be independently confirmed, but the voice resembled that of bin Laden in previous messages.
The White House dismissed the tape, saying it reflected bin Laden's "isolation" and shows the al-Qaida leader is trying to remain relevant at a time when his ideology and mission are being questioned and challenged.
The tape, entitled "a call for jihad to stop the aggression on Gaza," was played over a still picture of bin Laden and the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem's Old City, one of Islam's holiest sites. But there were no English subtitles and flashy production graphics that usually accompany such messages.
That suggested the message had been hastily put together and issued to best exploit anger in the region over the Gaza offensive, which Palestinian medical officials say has killed more than 940 Palestinians, half of them civilians. Israel said the offensive aims to halt rocket fire from Gaza against Israeli towns.
Bin Laden accused Arab leaders of "avoiding their responsibility" to liberate Palestine.
"If you are not convinced to fight, then open the way to those who are convinced," he said.
Bin Laden and his lieutenants frequently use the Palestinian issue to try to rally support for al-Qaida and often call for holy war to free Jerusalem. But there has been little sign that the terror group has carried out attacks in Israel.
Bin Laden made no direct reference to Hamas, which seized power in Gaza in 2007. Al-Qaida leaders have frequently criticized the Islamic militant group for participating in elections and failing to seriously pursue jihad against Israel.
The al-Qaida leader also said the world economic crisis was a sign that the United States' power was falling apart.
"The Islamic nation's jihad is one of the main causes of these destructive results for our enemies," he claimed.
Pointing to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, bin Laden said al-Qaida was prepared to fight "for seven more years, and seven more after that, then seven more."
"We are on the way to opening new fronts," he said, urging Muslims to "join hands with the mujahedeen to continue the jihad against the enemy, to continue bleeding them on these two fronts and on the others that are open to you."
"The question is, can America continue the war against us for several more decades? The reports and signs show us otherwise," he said. He said Bush had left his successor "with a heavy inheritance," forcing Obama to choose between withdrawing from the wars or continuing.
"If he withdraws from the war, it is a military defeat. If he continues, he drowns in economic crisis," bin Laden said.
It was the first time bin Laden have spoken of Obama, though he did not mention him by name. Bin Laden's top deputy Ayman al-Zawahri has previously spoken against Obama, warning Muslims he will not bring major change in U.S. policies.
hecklerkoch
New member
Bro, THOA - I must say I am a fan of your posts and opinions, man.
Well said, intellectually stimulating, concise and easy to understand for most people, and most importantly I know it's meant to educate rather than defensive (or worse, self-serving).
This is after all a discussion, and those who mean well, as in participate in the discussion with the sole purpose of finding out more and understanding more about the topic for his benefit and knowledge, will understand how this works.
You really don't have to agree with what's being discussed, if it's against your own principles and if it's outrightly biased and contains wrong information, but as long as one posts without malice, I think it's all healthy and good.
So, if you think you can benefit from this - go on and share your opinions and thoughts.
Otherwise, there are another thousand and one threads in SOFT for you to participate in besides this.
fgl
Well-known member
Singaporean terror suspect in Indonesia says ready to face consequences
Channel NewsAsia - Thursday, January 15 INDONESIA: A Singaporean member of the terror network Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), who is facing charges under Indonesia’s anti—terrorism law, said he is ready to face the consequences for his actions.
[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]
Trained in Afghanistan, Mohammad Hassan Saynudin alias Fajar Taslim fled Singapore in 2001 with other JI members after Singapore authorities began to arrest terror suspects following the September 11 attack in the United States.
Mohammad Hassan was on the run in Indonesia for seven years before he was arrested in South Sumatra six months ago.
He said: "Three years I was in Java, four years in Palembang. While in Java, I didn’t do anything. I was lying low, keeping a low profile. But it was in Palembang where I started venturing out. As a Singaporean, I have something valuable here — English. So I taught English and I could feed myself and my family."
It was in Palembang that Mohammad Hassan met other extremists. They eventually formed a group called Jemaah Palembang and assembled dozens of homemade bombs.
The group is alleged to have killed a teacher in Palembang, attempted to kill three Christian priests and to bomb a cafe where Westerners congregated.
According to court papers, Mohammad Hassan mooted the idea of killing the teacher because he had shown disrespect to Muslim students who donned the headscarf.
"There are things which I regret and there are things which I don’t. Anything which is not in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah, I regret. But if it is according to the Quran and Sunnah, I do not regret even a bit," he said.
Mohammad Hassan and his nine other accomplices could face the death penalty under Indonesia’s anti—terrorism law. The trial is expected to take months as prosecutors attempt to prove the role played by each of the suspects.
Channel NewsAsia - Thursday, January 15 INDONESIA: A Singaporean member of the terror network Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), who is facing charges under Indonesia’s anti—terrorism law, said he is ready to face the consequences for his actions.
[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]
Trained in Afghanistan, Mohammad Hassan Saynudin alias Fajar Taslim fled Singapore in 2001 with other JI members after Singapore authorities began to arrest terror suspects following the September 11 attack in the United States.
Mohammad Hassan was on the run in Indonesia for seven years before he was arrested in South Sumatra six months ago.
He said: "Three years I was in Java, four years in Palembang. While in Java, I didn’t do anything. I was lying low, keeping a low profile. But it was in Palembang where I started venturing out. As a Singaporean, I have something valuable here — English. So I taught English and I could feed myself and my family."
It was in Palembang that Mohammad Hassan met other extremists. They eventually formed a group called Jemaah Palembang and assembled dozens of homemade bombs.
The group is alleged to have killed a teacher in Palembang, attempted to kill three Christian priests and to bomb a cafe where Westerners congregated.
According to court papers, Mohammad Hassan mooted the idea of killing the teacher because he had shown disrespect to Muslim students who donned the headscarf.
"There are things which I regret and there are things which I don’t. Anything which is not in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah, I regret. But if it is according to the Quran and Sunnah, I do not regret even a bit," he said.
Mohammad Hassan and his nine other accomplices could face the death penalty under Indonesia’s anti—terrorism law. The trial is expected to take months as prosecutors attempt to prove the role played by each of the suspects.
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