Dear Mr Bitter Liberty - Pls dont devalue local musicians!!

[Azaro]

Whoa Nelly Hey Ho,

that's a slippery slope argument you're making there. 'Establishment' in the more generic sense means better organisation and clearer governance, not the stifling of creatvity and expression. That's called bureaucracy, and that takes something more than a musician's union, or a gig organiser's union, to dream it up.

I don't think your argument (premises to conclusion) holds any water, and you're merely putting in assumptions in there - thereby muddling the issue further.

As for qualifying bands, it's a matter of setting criteria, and measuring them by the criteria. It's the same for most situations, e.g. qualifying for JC/Poly/Uni, you must meet certain educational criteria; getting admitted to Berkelee Music College, you must demostrate musical certain abilities etc.

Who's equipped to judge? The union's committee, I guess.

Who gets to be in the committee? People who are committed and have the experience, contacts etc.

Who selects the committee? The people the union supports.

Etc.




We're Only In It For the Money (thanks Zappa!)

 

[AgingYouth]

Talk does not cook rice.

Go register your union already.

https://www.psi.gov.sg/NASApp/tmf/TMFServlet?app=MHA-SIR-RO-HOME&isNew=true

http://www.mha.gov.sg/ecitizen/roses/images/docs/guide-newReg.pdf

Have fun trying to raise the intial cost of SGD400.00 to start a society. Yes, it's even more expensive to start one than to start a business. In the event you guys need auditors and legal advice, I can hook you guys up. I dunno how they will charge though. An union without legal and financial backings is more laughable than a toothless tiger. Without these, you will have absolutely no bargaining power.

Don't even start thinking about when you accumulate all the musicians in S'pore under the umbrella, you will have that power. Bollocks. a) Not everyone will go with that union. b) It just takes one hungrier musician to spoil your union trade rules.

You really want this to happen? Start attending your RC meetings and start speaking to your MPs.

Good luck.

 

[Azaro]

Obviously even the most idealistic and enthusiastic person will get derailed just reading the rules and filling up the forms

And talking to MPs won't make that any simpler.

The point I was making is that there are ways to get to a win:win situation, and we only need to budge a little to get there.

But if everyone wants to dig in their heels and cast stones, this scene will die a painful and slow death.

And yes, talk can't cook rice, but we all knew that already.

 

[Vaiyen]

Right Vaiyen? *winks* :wink:

yea, but the reality is that dedicated venues for rock/metal are fast disappearing. Last I heard, Zombie is now a dance club or something.

The venues remaining, do not cater exclusively to that kind of music, and also do not have an interest in promoting that scene. The bottom-line is what matters for them, thus the business strategies we see reflected here.

Zombie were too idealistic, and that is why they didn't last long.

 

[Kash]

Actually Zombie was the best venue to hold all types of gigs but unfortunate for us the mangement there were not the appropriate one to hold gigs..that is why they are fcuked big time.!!!!!!
Hope there will be another venue that will finally open their eyes and see the potential..do you know how much substation earns just from local gigs??? At least $5000 a month....just over the weekends..to any venue owners here..please wake up.

 

[AgingYouth]

Hahaha....

Sorry, but $5,000 is pittance lah... Can only cover the salaries of 2 employees who earns $2,000 a mth each. The other $1k? CPF, medical insurance (The working crowd here will emphatise), claims.

Kash, how much you reckon Zouk brings in on one Friday night?

 

[AgingYouth]

And yes, talk can't cook rice, but we all knew that already.

Since you know that and I see you have so much passion about this, how are you going to do anything about it?

 

[bernardgoh]

mmm.... maybe you're right... substation earn at least $5k or why not put it 10k per months. but have you think of the staff they have? their rental cost? the venues maintanance? for that kinda space and the manpower... i don't see is a good business to run for profit.
Substation is a funded organisation that's why they can substain a lower rental rates and still run the places. think the people who have to wake up is us. we're taking things for ganted that people should support us and we just wait for others to start organising gigs and stuff..... if there's no people who want to organises it, we simply just log in to soft.com and complain...... .....

 

[HeartRockSingapore]

Just to add one more that will fade away....Planet Paradigm is going Canto Pop.

OK about the union thing....

it is whether you are looking at a formalised union or an informal one. Let's not call it union henceforth because it will muddle the downstream discussion because unions are governed by different statutes from societies, or non-profit organizations.

Assuming you go for a society...as prompted by aging youth's post, the setting up is quite easy. Minimum 10 members and the fees, I guess 400 bucks. But be reminded that every member will be held responsible for the society's liabilities if it arises. And of course there will be issues of internal politiking as to who sets the rules and why must ppl who defers follow the rules set by ppl who do not know what they are talking about and etc etc may arise.

But mind you...this is not interference by the so call ESTABLISHMENT. It is your own ppl setting the by laws.

But if maturity prevails, then a formalised organization will do more good than harm. Unity translate to strength. You have better bargaining power vis a vis organizers, arts promoters, commercial interests, suppliers & vendors etc etc.

But in my opinion, our bands aren't ready as we don not have a critical mass of bands in demand. This results in an imbalance of the negotiation table.

My suggestion is to form an informal group, or seeral informal groups if niche interest does stand in the way of a unified one, and start propagating the idea of band valuation.

The issue at hand really is personal interest (your band) versus community interest (the whole band community). Will sacrificing a little now to benefit the whole guarantees your sacrifice will not be in vain?

Think about it. Need help?

 

[unsane]

Zombie were too idealistic, and that is why they didn't last long.

zombie didnt last long because the beer was what, $30 a jug?

 

[Azaro]

Since you know that and I see you have so much passion about this, how are you going to do anything about it?

Hi Aging Youth, this isn't about me (the individual) but about us (the collective) as well as the gig organisers. I can do nothing about it. But we can do something if we want to.

The question then becomes: what do we want to do? And what are we willing to give to make this work?

If we can agree on 'what', then 'how' is a matter of detail.

Even so, I think it's an unfair question to ask me because I'm not the one who's grappling with the situation. We are.

If the question was posed to you, what would your reply be?

 

[AgingYouth]

If the question was posed to you, what would your reply be?

My reply: Nothing.

I'm tired of seeing and hearing people whine about the entire situation. They come along with their plans of fancy and grandeur. So many ideas and all. When you ask one of them to come up front to lead the initiative and become an Indian chief, everyone shrinks away and start saying, "Oh, it's not about me... it's about the community."

Why did I say nothing? Cuz I don't care about what scene and what community and what music industry. I won't lie by saying we started Aging Youth Productions because we wanted to revitalise the underground scene. Please... as if anyone will believe.

We started it because we were like people out there. Our band couldn't get gigs. Instead of bitching about it on an internet forum, we organised our own. The 1st one was okay. We failed the 2nd time... miserably. Ask around. We changed our model of working. We started a regular web-zine (okay, we slipped an issue last month) which tries to promote different musical artforms. Check it. We covered metal, hardcore, IDM, indie rock, jangly pop and hip-hop in our web-zine. We made loads of contacts, loads of good friends and drank immense amounts of beer.

We took out money (always such a sensitive issue) from our funds to partially finance B-Quartet's EP. We believe in them and still love what they do.

Why? Because we love music. It's a passion and a calling. We don't wanna hide behind some excuses. We still dunno what makes the music industry tick and we won't pretend we do. We love music; playing and writing about it and organising events where it can be shared makes us tick.

Instead of viewing from the marco view, start doing things from the micro perspective. When you don't even have this sorted out, how the hell are you ever gonna do things on a bigger level?

That will be my reply.

 

[FATCAT]

hey ho let`s go!!!!!!!

i agree with HeartRockS`pore n Aging Youth.....
but this thread is already misled........

anyways...getting paid or not....the bottomline is...our local bands perform of coz because of passion firstly....sum may want the `glamour`...or the lime light....

but wat i see nowdays..in studios n at most of the shows i went to....bands nowadays need to brush up!!..more quality songs..not sum 15-mins under the block kinda songs..but well-arranged..well-structured..S.O.N.G.S......how do u expect to get paid or play in more gigs if u don`t sound good...if u can`t entertain the crowd..if u can`t give the public wat they wanna hear????..
talking abt getting paid or not..or who to get more....it`s up to the organizers actually..BUT plzz...organizers..B REASONABLE....

i think most of the users here know nothing abt organizing....that`s where all the mis-leading comments is coming from.....
i had my fair-share last yr..wen it`s time to work...everyone turned away...in the end there`s only 4 of us werking for 4-straight days..no sleep...no rest...
there`s too much PROFESSOR KNOW-IT-ALL here... n `EMPTY CANS` also....so yeah.....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

ONCE AGAIN.......THINK BEFORE U COMMENT!!!! 8) 8)

 

[Vio]

yeah Zombie rock bar is now teeming with sexy horny filipino maids packed to the point of spilling over... but only on their ladies nights and tea dance sunday.


There's no way their allowing rock back there...


... then again there IS this Masters of Rock thingie... feels like the club wants to commercialise but deep inside its still a metalhead at heart.

 

[hay88]

i'm certainly against making bands pay $$$ to get a slot...but giving them tics to sell..i think it's very fair

 

[embryo]

Very well expressed Aging Youth!

This whole debate is really a relevant one and yes it does concern everyone of us pros, amatuers and wannabes. Everyone here somehow has a valid point. Being Singaporeans we are quick with our assumptions based on our conditioned ideals and quicker to voice our opinions before taking a broader view of the circumstances we have here and the hidden consequences of our benevolent so called win win solutions for one and all.

Really what we have here is a case of placing the carriage before the horse.
Unlike our neighbours and the rest of the developed nations we as proud economically successful driven citizens of Singapore must and will typically place the importance of Industry(carriage) before Culture (horse).

We preoccupy ourselves with concerns about the how to's in industrial standards, marketing, branding, association, management and the $$$. Everything done here in S'pore always seems to come down to monetary motivations. Yet when all this is placed aside we still fail to address and work upon the most important element of our collective concerns. Something much needed but still lacking and only at it's infancy and that is the music itself.
Pls don't get me wrong here as I have no doubts about talents here as I've prersonally witnessed many but...
Music that's culturally and socially relevant should first be allowed to nurture and develop. Economies go up and down, fashions come and go but the culture of a nation's people will remain steadfast if not evolve. Commercialism and all it's associated elements will happen when it's time.

If one feels for whatever reason you don't subscribe to some organizer's version of clauses because it's unfairly questionable then simply stay out of it. The bitching always starts when some feel that it's unfair and yet so many others still bite onto it and go along with the obvious unfair tactics simply for chalking up their resumes of having associated themselves with so called big and glamourous events for the "feel good" factor. Despite all this it's sad but true that many with such naive agendas are still willing do it despite the obvious warning signs and worst of all... for free some more! Aiya! Why Lidat?

More to say and hear from the rest of I bet ya.

"All the biggest mistakes by mankind began with good intentions"

My reply: Nothing..

 

[gargle]

Society or Union???

the funny thing about this thread is that bands and organizers are so integral to each others existence, yet shocking to see disparaging comments like "bands do most of the work (90%)" and similarly pointless comments about bands that serve no other purpose than to widen the rift between the two groups.

The gig scene sure has a long way to go, but this is a good start.

But to take Aging Youth's point further, and avoiding the society/union scenario for now, perhaps the community could start by putting out the things that need to be done to put a gig together, and lets see who steps forward to take on the burden.

Lets set a date and work backwards. self organized by the community, funding all costs related to the gig.

Expect fireworks? :twisted:

 

[blackductape]

i think im gonna take a neutral view on this one although i think that paying to play is still ridiculous especially if we don't have a say in the committee and have to pay alot.

but on the other hand, since organisers had already book the venue, rent equipment and all the other stuff, we got to at least appreciate their effort.
all that cost money. in the case that bands have to pay to play, its not very good to judge the organisers cause at times, the attendance sucks big time and organisers are caught offguard. seeing the scene right now, a typical underground gig at most get like 300 people unless you're already mainstream like electrico or ronin. for that, organisers should try to publicise the gig as much as possible and not to only depend on bands to do all the promoting. also, i agree to the point that bands should be given a little token of appreciation in any case if there's a profit after the gig as a show of 'thank you for making the gig successful'. organisers should remember that without the bands which played, the gig would be nothing. otherwise, bands should also remember that without these gig organisers, they would have a really difficult time getting gigs.

so, i say that gig organisers and bands should maintain a good relationship cause without on another, this scene cannot grow. if bands are made to pay, find out why. and bands if you get paid no matter how much, say thank you.

 

[HeartRockSingapore]

Re: Society or Union???

Lets set a date and work backwards. self organized by the community, funding all costs related to the gig.

Expect fireworks? :twisted:

RR 05/06

 

[saito]

Even a small token fee for four cups of milo peng would be good.

yum.

yes it would be nice to have something to drink at a gig