Dear Mr Bitter Liberty - Pls dont devalue local musicians!!

[mulyadi]

i agree with sofyan, it's not cheap and/or that easy to organize a gig. Yes, there may be 'free' public places where you can perform, and yes, you may even get like hundreds?thousands? or even just a handful of spectators, but one thing you gotta bear in mind is, that most of the gigs are FREE to attend. So, being able to get paid (much, if any) is a virtue. However, i do believe that the basic costs should be covered, and i know that heartrock does that.

if you look at the stories behind the great musicians, eg. Jimi Hendrix, even he paid for his own transport, and lived off on beds of females he met during those gigs, and only got paid peanuts just to cover his bus fare, food and strings. And that may sound like a long time ago, but i think, as musicians one way or another, we have experienced that difficulty before.

Unless you make it big, and have a following, it'd be difficult for you to be earning easy and quality bread and butter. However, don't let that deter you from trying to make it. It may be a long way to go, but hey...come on... that's what music is all about ain't it?

I feel that we should learn from the painful experiences which people had, and try not to make the same mistakes. Yes, don't expect too much if you're an unheard of band, and don't play too hard to get. Put off the airs, and put on your most humble pair of pants. My first gig, we had to bring our own stuff, amps, guitars, cables, and even buy our own strings and fork out our own transportation fare, but it was done in the spirit of happiness and agreement. Thus, we ended that with happy smiles and it was a great experience for us.

So, what to do, remember the golden-rule, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

And for you not to get undercut and get drawn into empty promises, i think that papers/forms are the easiest and clearest way to assure of that. If the guy don't have it, maybe you can make your own band's forms, just make it simple, don't demand too much, just whatever has been agreed, and get it signed. I think that that isn't too much to ask? unless, of course, the organizer is someone who you can trust, eg. has organized lots of concerts before, and without bad ratings/comments.

Hope that that helps. and to the future of the music scene of the world. cheers.

 

[lars_ulrich]

why hasnt the man himself spoken?

 

[hifi_killer]

i feel that it isnt unreasonable to charge the bands, if the organisers were to spread out the burden of the costs on to the audience, than can you imagine how many people will want to turn up. If its not for the money, how many people will do it voluntarily ? The bands are the one who out to gain in this gig. Nobody in the audience usually give a damn for the organisers.

I believe the exposure is more important than the little insignificant rewards. you are there to win the hearts of the crowd. Even if its just 10 people, you play heart out, hopefully you get 2 out of the 10 people to like your stuff. Keep playing in such gigs, slowly build up your fanbase even if its just 2 and a time, all the small numbers adds up. It is your fans that gives value to your band, not the organisers, not you. Cut a CD, sell your cds, have a large fanbase to sustain your cd sales. Thats how you earn money.

inessence, gigs are like investment. Your returns depends on how much money and hardwork you invested. Nothing without labour.[/b]

 

[atee]

why hasnt the man himself spoken?

What would you expect to hear? :wink:

 

[attitude]

disclaimer: pub players n garage band musicians like most softies are diffrent.

at last ppl are talking abt how hard it is to make an event successful.

n how gr8 players had to live on life on the 'roads' in less than wat money can offer.

i undersand 3notesabar, that pay the musician where due, but make sure theyre damn gd. we're talking abt underground bands here not regular pub players(will those bands pls stand up). sort of wen all the gr8 bands (dat we so much emulate and cover) were starting out. i have no objection to gd bands getting paid, more so in pubs.
but the trend nowadays is to expose bands in pubs it seems..n the venue rental is wat killing the organisers. n dat there are so many new gig organisers n talent scouts who r still green in dis gigging industry. wana blame the pub owners? theyre doin business, they cant afford to give favours.

actually i find paying to gig or bring own equiptments fine oso, cuz it will help the green organisers in a way. its helping each other lah. make our music community stronger dis way oso. then eventually those who are really gd enuff, will get paid as due. those cant make it either they quit dreaming of getting paid or werk harder!! we pay to practice, so just take paying to gig as a form of live practice.

reality check: even gd bands like bquartet, electrico, ronin to name a few arent really paid wat their skills are due. so wat can u do? either u break the system or u go find greener pastures elsewhere.....

 

[bernardgoh]

I think we ourself who so called supporter of the local music scene or bands should really ask ourself this. How many local album you've and how much you're willing to pay to go to a gigs? let me sidetrack abit, Take a look at Formula One Racing, those new drivers actually have to pay multi-millions buck to get into the races at first. why do they want to do this?
i do know there's gigs organiser without any form of government support that still pay the bands for the gigs but in the end, these people just get too tired to promote the bands and in return got so many problems like fighting, spoiled equipment etc..... i think bands have their own choice on choosing what they want. if the bands need exposure and the gigs organiser willing to give a chance to them and not paying them... i think is fine. cause i think for a bands to get paid to play, they themself must be good so that the organiser can pay them. still organiser have a choice too to organise any kind of gigs. be it profitable or non-profitable.
I'm just thinking why are we complaining in the forums and not take times to organise a gigs ourself? any takers? i would really like to see somebody here take up the role of gigs organiser and still pay the bands nowsaday.
Still....... above are my honest opinions which come from my heart.

 

[mulyadi]

bro hifi killer:

IMHO, it's not unreasonable, if you make it known in the first place, and if the band agrees...but i feel that if they do this to make an outright profit by charging the bands, not to just share the costs, it's a lil' unfair. at least from my point of view. If the bands feel that it will get them good exposure, then it's up to the bands themselves to decide. Yupz... but that's my opinion (the unfair thingy)....

and yeah...gigs are like investments, and like all investments, they come with their risks too. yupz... sometimes, the higher-cost ones may yield the most profit returns, but they are also more prone to dropping..yeah... but wth..haha..yeah...it's really up to u.

but i believe that organizers should not make empty promises. When heartrock @orchard was published, i even caught glimpses of the advert through the morning news@ CNA in indonesia. That's media exposure ya? and so far as i know, the bands got compensated in one way or another (correct me if i'm wrong)...

yupz..and yeah...we'd surely love to hear an explanation from mr Bitter Liberty and yeah...we should too, to prevent this whole thing from becoming a libel thingy. yupz..so...please do post your side of the story yeah? =)

don't worry, we won't kill you.

 

[3notesAbar]

but the trend nowadays is to expose bands in pubs it seems..

I think this is where the exploitation begins...

 

[mikemann]

This arguement will not have a ending, everyone have their own side of story and reason. Maybe we should not look at it in such a perspective. There different level of play when gigs are concern, some for beginner bands and some for advanced bands, organisers that come are as colorful as the rainbow.

A few bad apples are always out there, stinking up the place for all the good ones. People will be more wary when there is a 'smell'. This apply for both organisers and bands as well.

I will say the following, hope most can agree:

There is no such thing as a free lunch, honesty is the best policy.

 

[satch]

bt then again, some people just have to bitch about every thing eh? jst some time ago, im reading threads about, OH THERE"S TOO LITTLE GIGS ARND.

well, maybe those gig despo bands can apply for this one then? everyone can be happy.

 

[Vio]

Rule of economics:


Scenario 1: In a year if there are 1000 bands wanting to gig to get heard (aka "exposure"), but only 200 slots available, then it makes perfect sense to charge the bands to play. Don't want to pay? Then you don't get to play.

This is the situation now for bands who want to get heard, they grudgingly pay. Demand for gigs far outstrip supply.



Scenario 2: For bands that are professional standards like pub bands or famous bands like Slipknot and Dream Theater, where their music is in high demand, then it makes perfect sense to pay the band to play.

Demand for their music far exceeds the amount of gigs these bands will do.



Don't get me wrong, i'm not siding with BitterLiberty as i also feel the anger when i was told we had to pay to play for the Freedom Maiden gig, but looking at the bigger picture, this is the reality.

So i feel the solution is to make the demand for your bands music high enough. If that would require a bit of "investment" here and there, then i'd say its prudent and even perfectly logical.

 

[bernardgoh]

yeah.... totally agreed with the recents post.

 

[Peace2all]

Prob'bly thats the reason why potentially good one going overseas. They knew too well what a monkey they are out to be made by getting peanuts at the end of the day.
GO go go Kit Chan,Stefanie Sun,Tanya Chua, M Nasir,Dick Lee and the list goes on and on. If Ronin were to cut their tracks overseas, like in Taiwan, Australia or Europe and getting air time over there, instant success like maggie mee, fast to cook good to eat, me hungry liao.
asta la vis ta

 

[bernardgoh]

that's why i want to ask ourself are we really supporting our own local bands/artiste? are we buying their albums or are we just ripping off from other people who brough the disc or just waiting someone to put on the net so you can download. without demand.... we can never expect supply... and i mean good supply. imagine bands/artsite spend lots of money to record a album and engage musicians to sessions for them and at the end people don't want to pay for it and yet they have it? is sad right.

 

[Newbie]

Hmm so playing music and wanting to be heard, sadly to say is a form of business?

 

[bernardgoh]

sadly.... yes... if the bands don't have the money to record albums, you can't expect them to have a second albums.... same goes to organising gigs, if the gigs organiser keep losing money, how can they grow stronger to make a bigger gigs? unless they've support by the government. that's what i can think of.
everybody need to earn some money to contiune their dreams, just see how many people actually give up their dreams because of money??? i admire people like james who created this site... beside working, he still find precious time to set this up. how many of us can do it?

 

[HeartRockSingapore]

Bottom line, it depends on whether the gig organizer is out to make money or not to make money. Don't get me wrong, there are gig organizers, like full time musicians, need money to survive.

In the right perspective, the better bands should be paid, so shall the better gig organizers. I don't know how to tell a better band from the other except that whether I like the band or not. But I can tell you what a better organizer is because I am an organizer.

A better organizer, if he wants to make money out of the show, has the responsibility to ensure that there will be crowd. He has to do all he can to sell the show. It is not the responsibility of the performers to sell the show for him. It is also his obligation to the audience that the show is worth what the audience are paying for...that goes on to ensuring that the equipment and the sound crew he provides will not make the performers look silly, hence the audience get short changed. It is also his risks to bear if he losses money, because he wants to make money. There is no such thing as head I win, tail you loss.

Having said that, I must reiterate that HeartRock gigs are Head you win, Tail I loss. What I gained really is a bunch or great friends. Musicians are honest people (sometimes too naive and get exploited), they are true friends because there is no fake in them, they tell you what they really feel, and not something else. I suppose it is these things I see in musicians that make me want to do more.

 

[Newbie]

Woo. Nice post Anthony. And yes! Some of them are newbies also! Like me!! Haha but anyway... i dont know how a gig works but, how about those gigs with like tickets? cause many of the gigs ive attended er requires tickets, say 10 to 15 bucks per tix?

i mean what im trying to say is, how about making the gigs "not free"?

 

[attitude]

so now we all know wat sg music is all abt rite!!

lets build bridges not fences, especially in the soft community.. already its a small community, dun make it smaller by being inconsiderate towards ppls views and feelings.

together we can turn ppl to like our music as much as they like imported music.

so no badmouthing pointing fingers as from now aite guys!!

how abt we make a gigging seminar or sumting like dat? it'll be a gr8 learning opportunity for musos!!

 

[AgingYouth]

This is the funniest thread I've read here in a long time. How interesting that this thread is about gig organisers and only the musicians are replying in this thread.

We must admit that we were very lucky. We did all our gigs at zero costs and still managed to make money to cover overheads and finance future projects. So far, out of all of our gigs, there are only 2 instances the acts didn't get paid. Each time the act will get at least a 3 digit sum from us if we are allowed the budget. And we are very transparent about the payment and who gets how much in the instances of staggered payment.

I dunno about what union or what community can help any scene. All I know is too much talk and too little action does jackshit. Not happy with any gig organisers? Not getting enough lurve from them?

Go out and do your own gigs. Don't sit at home and bitch on an internet forum. Nothing gets done and what's worst, you still don't get to perform...