Drumming In HDB how to deal with "noise"

[RudimentalDrummer]

I told HDB that - There is a Secondary School right behind our Block - and the students will practice from 7am till 7pm in the evening (on every Saturday)...These are New Students who join the School Band (and I know this school is No. 1 in Singapore for Music they play Secondary level)......

What the difference here, Imagine with 20 to 30 Horns Player altogether - Isn't it louder than the drums - YES ? Of course it is and they have the right cause it's within Reasonable Time of the day....Maybe I can understand (cause I'm into Music too) - (But not everyone is at my block) - so a line have to be drawn ( thus law states - start 10am to before 10pm) though a little grey area here, but still this is very needed as - "One's Man meat is another Man's Posion" because everyone is different (not everyone love Music) or (same Tye Of Music) say about (Instruments they play).

The same goes at Jurong Green CC (even if they have the right to Perform in Events though when the Minister came) - The hour is not-later than 10pm (with Licence.) - in case there is dispute (and they know - there will be).


Just because, someone doesn't like the sound of drums (and is deemed irritating to them) doesn't makes it - NOISE.

Cause I can also say "I doesn't like the sound of Piano" thus that's noise to me. The same goes if I do not like my Neighbour Singing Karaoke (cause they really cant sing and I deem it as Screaming) means they have to stop singing, or I cant understand the Dialet or language means (it's irritating to me) right - because they really do own their rights here...

I can always say - To Someone who knows how to appreciate Music - they call this Music - To those that dont - They call it noise....

So - this should applies to a Drummer too in a fair manner.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Well it’s being some time, and this Thread had been pretty quite for some time

Well tomorrow evening, the HDB Officers will be up knocking at my door (not exactly as we have an appointment) – or a discussion on:-

Neighbours complaining about my drumming…..well guess I can’t run away from this…anyway why should I, not that I did anything wrong here.

I’ve spoken to the Police Department and had got a confirmation from them – That I do have my right’s to Drum, but not later than 10.30pm in the night (because if after this time, someone complain – they will have to take action.

So I told them about the issue at hand, that my neighbours had launch a complain against me to the HDB.. My question was simple

(1) Do I’ve the right to drum from 7.00pm to 9.00pm at most (sometimes I stop at 8pm or 8.30pm) – They told me it’s very reasonable and yes I do have my rights here as long as not after 10.30pm…….BUT, they say it would be good if I can control my playing alittle (as best as I can) here…….

(2) My next question was – Does the Law apply equally to all parties whether you are living in a HDB, or a School Band playing at the School, or someone Karaoking, or Events held under license in the public – and the answer was a “yes”

(3) Now comes the tricky part – I then ask – The Law here states that I can drum from a certain to a certain time according to the police (I repeat I say The Law)….What about HDB, do they too have a Law governing this area that I can drum at my own home as long as I stop before a certain time (like The Law above)…..well you would have guess – The answer was a “I don’t know”, but to us “You Can”.

So, this is the grey area – assuming if HDB says “You Cannot” and the Police says “You Can Under The Law” - - - Which Law preceed which?, Can I or Can I not? …. Because a Law is a Law – there will be no conflicting Law & objective right?…..Cause one cannot say (especially here in Singapore) that - …Hmm.mm Let me think “I think I will say can” or I suka suka say “Cannot” because “I just feel like saying you cannot” and I can play around with it...no how can law be ...Vague

To me very simple as quoted.

You sing Karaoke loudly (it’s also call disturbance), you sing in a language some can’t or cannot understand (they might call it disturbing), A young 17 year old kit will not be able to appreciate (those 1950s Chinese Opera kind of Songs) and likewise the older generation might not necessary find Rock-Music soothing to their ears (thus it can be deem as Disturbing or a Disturbance to them)……One’s man meat is another man’s poison…all of us will not in most cases share the same hobby or liking….more so when there are so many kinds of people living in a HDB.

Why does a School Band practice their horns (say 40 blowing it altogether) from morning till only 7pm – cause they must have been told their “Rights” here by the school.

Why does Ko-Tai or events held at HDB out in the open stop at a certain time (they are told their rights when they should stop), the license is merely needed to show that it is a social activity that needs approval…since there will be hundreds of people there.

The police (The Law Stated By Them) applies to all above concern with no exception here.

To me – If a complain is launch then (HDB comes and says – Stop Drumming) – this shows Exception - - - Yes in law there might be some exception, but this exception that (if someone complain-than you cannot) if (People don’t complain-than you can) – is not a LAW…because to me – a Law must be just & fair, simple as that.

Tomorrow, the officer will talk to me at my home (paying me a visit)…..

It’s just like (if a country law says – You will be Hang for Murdering Someone)…(can another law override this, as an example here - a Certain Totally New Religion says – Oh You can’t hang him because Our Type Of Religion Law says – “No To Hanging Even For Murder” … Which law now comes into play. - - - - Don’t take offence my dear friends (I mean nothing here) just an example to show – that at the end of the day – There will only be one-law standing that says “Hang” or “Don’t’ Hang” – cannot be sometime they let it go “ok Don’t Hang him” cause he belongs to this Group and they have a law, and to those not under this Group- to says “ Hang him” - - - no…no, this will not be fair – thus not a Law. A Law is Fair and applicable to everyone…not somsthing that is very subjective…subjective to complaining is no justification cause that fellow can be Sabo anytime by someone who doesn’t likes him……Hehehehehe

I think tomorrow I will talk like that to the HDB Officer

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

So tomorrow is a (Meeting between myself & those HDB Officers at my home), wish me THE BEST of luck here too, cause I am here to defend our very Passion = “ Drumming In HDB ” where most of us resides (because drumming is not solely restricted to the rich only mah – not all of us are rich enough to stay in Private Housing) …. If all things turns otherwise – Chai-lat liao, meaning - provided HDB can and will set a precedent (that's becomes the new ruling supperceeding the law from the police) – overriding it (from what the police told me) that we can drum till 10.30pm.

 

[jeepers]

All the best, bro! What time are the cops coming over? I go support support! I'm 10 minutes away!

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Thanks Jasper...not the Cops (the cops gave me a Green Light), it's the HDB Officers that are comming at 7pm...hahahaha


Eric

 

[lester_music]

Wow....

RD.....the future of drumming in HDB depends on your discussion...hahah..just kidding...

Anyway, all the best...support you mentally....hehe

 

[KDY]

Lets all propose to HDB to have a musician only estate!

Haha

We all can play as loud as we want anytime and every week have a gig at the void deck!

 

[Sheylara]

Lets all propose to HDB to have a musician only estate!

Haha

We all can play as loud as we want anytime and every week have a gig at the void deck!

That's a damn cool idea!!! I love that!!!

But then imagine the family members of the musicians... they will die... hahahaha. Cannot be all the musicians are single right?

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Well, yesterday the HDB Officer came. He look at my drums and he said “I think Maybe you’re not allow to Keep Drums At A HDB Flats”

I ask him “Why? is this illegal?”..”Does that means, nobody staying at HDB is allow to allow to own and play drums, what about other Musicial Instruments eg Piano, Electric Guitar, Saxaphone, are these not Musical Instruments etc”…He says “Drums is very different”…and he will have to check with “HDB Legal Department if I can put a Drum-Set in a HDB Flat”….so he ask me “I want to take pictures of your Drum-Set and send it to the HDB Legal Department”…and I said “No, you can’t anyway who doesn’t knows how a DrumSet looks like, so no need to take the pictures, just ask the Department” He didn’t want to spend time taking to me to hear my point of view and then he left saying “I’ve other issues to attend to”. If people complain you cannot drum, if people don’t complain, they can drum, we don’t care….what kind of statement is this – Fairness, not vague, clearly defined? As to Yes or No? Anyway I said “The Police The Law says I can drum till 10.30pm and it’s not against the law here, yous says If people complain you cannot, If no complain you can, and we don’t care even they are drumming at HDB”…”Now Which is which- Yes or No-Does HDB Ruling here override the Police Law or what?, and he says “I don’t want to answer your this question”


I then call Mr Tama Goh and tells him above happening. Tama says “Of course one have a right to keep a Drumset at home even it’s a HDB Flat – It’s not illegal weapon or what – it’s just another Musical Instrument, and if you have the $$$$ you can keep 15 sets or more – there is no law that says you cannot own many drums.

Anyway, Tama told me, Things like these happens and since the Officer says “a very unfair statement” and “The police says The Law is till 10.30pm”……Look at it this way”If someone wants to Sabo us” we had it. I already compromise by playing only from Monday to Wednesday (cause I have Rehersals on other days) and I only play from 7pm to 8.30pm (1 ½ hrs only though law says till 10.30pm) – This by itself is a compromise - - Unfortunately it’s is not a 2-way affair here cause if they want me to stop drumming completely in HDB for the rest of my life (it’s not a compromise).

I’ve actually took Tama advice telling the HDB initially that the Owner who complain to speak to me (so we can compromise – but it seems he doesn’t wants to – and just want drummings to be stop completely)…..Also I’ve been drumming 2 years ago, but no complain because I play Jazz (those times) and since I started to play Rock-Drumming (maybe they don’t like Rock Music) – I kenna lah…

Of course the advice here is, I can bring up to my MP in my area, if things get worst (HDB insisting no drums are allowed in HDB or no playing of drums).

Well, we’ll see how it goes from here.

 

[Blofeld]

Well, yesterday the HDB Officer came. He look at my drums and he said “I think Maybe you’re not allow to Keep Drums At A HDB Flats”

I ask him “Why? is this illegal?”..”Does that means, nobody staying at HDB is allow to allow to own and play drums, what about other Musicial Instruments eg Piano, Electric Guitar, Saxaphone, are these not Musical Instruments etc”…He says “Drums is very different”…and he will have to check with “HDB Legal Department if I can put a Drum-Set in a HDB Flat”….so he ask me “I want to take pictures of your Drum-Set and send it to the HDB Legal Department”…and I said “No, you can’t anyway who doesn’t knows how a DrumSet looks like, so no need to take the pictures, just ask the Department” He didn’t want to spend time taking to me to hear my point of view and then he left saying “I’ve other issues to attend to”. If people complain you cannot drum, if people don’t complain, they can drum, we don’t care….what kind of statement is this – Fairness, not vague, clearly defined? As to Yes or No? Anyway I said “The Police The Law says I can drum till 10.30pm and it’s not against the law here, yous says If people complain you cannot, If no complain you can, and we don’t care even they are drumming at HDB”…”Now Which is which- Yes or No-Does HDB Ruling here override the Police Law or what?, and he says “I don’t want to answer your this question”


I then call Mr Tama Goh and tells him above happening. Tama says “Of course one have a right to keep a Drumset at home even it’s a HDB Flat – It’s not illegal weapon or what – it’s just another Musical Instrument, and if you have the $$$$ you can keep 15 sets or more – there is no law that says you cannot own many drums.

Anyway, Tama told me, Things like these happens and since the Officer says “a very unfair statement” and “The police says The Law is till 10.30pm”……Look at it this way”If someone wants to Sabo us” we had it. I already compromise by playing only from Monday to Wednesday (cause I have Rehersals on other days) and I only play from 7pm to 8.30pm (1 ½ hrs only though law says till 10.30pm) – This by itself is a compromise - - Unfortunately it’s is not a 2-way affair here cause if they want me to stop drumming completely in HDB for the rest of my life (it’s not a compromise).

I’ve actually took Tama advice telling the HDB initially that the Owner who complain to speak to me (so we can compromise – but it seems he doesn’t wants to – and just want drummings to be stop completely)…..Also I’ve been drumming 2 years ago, but no complain because I play Jazz (those times) and since I started to play Rock-Drumming (maybe they don’t like Rock Music) – I kenna lah…

Of course the advice here is, I can bring up to my MP in my area, if things get worst (HDB insisting no drums are allowed in HDB or no playing of drums).

Well, we’ll see how it goes from here.

Eric,

I can understand your frustration and indignation but the reality is that many people consider a drumset as a noisemaking device, not a musical instrument...esp when one is practising alone . Pianos, saxophone, violins etc are probably less objectionable.

The other issue is that drums can be very loud, and what may sound reasonable music in your ears is pure racket to another. Some even say what's the difference between a practising drummer whacking away...and a construction crew banging away in your flat.

Many years ago (when I used to practise) I was living in a semi D house and my music room was actually insulated (sort off)..but the noise still gets out and I received visits from our local police car quite frequenctly. Cannot win lah.

Living in an HDB flat can be worse !! After all, the HDB can set any rules they wish as long as the majority of HDB dwellers do not object...hence, no large pets... no pissing in the lifts...no holding of wakes except on void decks...etc etc.

If they pass a law against playing drums (they cannot stop you from owning a drumset in your flat) then you are really stuffed. After all, drummers can never form any majority among HDB dwellers.

You have my sympathy but your problems are not going to end any time soon.

 

[kdash]

all the best, bro eric! just be careful to respect others and try not to be over-agitated ya. will be interested to see how things turn out.

 

[headwan]

Rudi,

HDB have always been contradicting with the so call rule they apply, if ppl complain abt something they feel unhappy abt, they will say is illegal.For example, keeping cats in HDB flat they consider illegal, i mean after 5 years i have my cat, suddenly there this rule.Ask few of the personnel, and gez wat, all the answer is different, from Sars carrier to poo-ing ard and creating a mess...WTF? another ruling,i living in the 1st floor, so my parent and my neighbour took turn to dry laundry in open area near our own corridors, it happens quite a while, ard 5-6 months, den they say is an obstruction to the neighbour..."DING-DONG", what neighbour, apparently is just a small corridor, and only my family and my next door neighbour in tat so call corridor, no obstruction to the staircase or wat so ever.....

And pass Monday was the best thing ever happen. HDB told tat apparently for some reason, the drainage have been flooded with foams that apparently comes from our house from all those dish washing, and yuh they did say dish washing, not washing machine,they say that the drain only belong to our home and nt connected to other unit in that paticular block, when my mom ask, y is tat so, they say, is the construction of the building....what the heck??????....so u decide, is HDB ruling been decide by apparent complain from neighbour, becoz i believe that nosey neighbour are causes of HDB personnel frequent visit to our home or do they have their own black and white "books of rule"

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Yeap what you mentioned is true in a way, that's why "One's man meat is any man's poison Frank". Funny thing is when I was practicing Jazz, no one complain for 2 years (some even tell me - Hey I like it - even practicing trade 4 many a times)....When I turn to playing Rock nowadays just recently - chai-lat complains comes in - so these people dont appreciate Rock Music at all.

But then again, Music comes in all forms & style, and drumming/practicing is my passion here and I 'm sure no one Drummer will want to be told by their Neighbours - What to play & what not to play (as they can hear what you ae playing).....

But yes, many of us, not only get complains from some neighbours, but our own immediate family (and this is very true) especially most female they can't stand all those Boom...boom boom kinda sound, even practicing on a Rubber-Pad (tock-tock-tock) is very very irritating to them ....True isn't it.

And if the term "disturbance" is not within certain clear lines/framework eg The Law that states "Any Noise to stop after 10.30pm" - then Noise/Disturbance can apply to practically anything even to a point of some people who have the culture of talking loudly, Karaoking, Majong can be anything.

Of course I agree one has to be considerate (especially a drummer) like in my case only 7pm to 8 or 8.30 pm (1 1/2 hrs at most) - yet this compromising on my part is never appreciated (although the Law staes - till 10.30pm)...

Of course it's frustrating, if I cannot drums anymore from now onwards at HDB...worst, all drummers at HDB is not allowed to drum anymore.....But Law is always a very fair thing (it has to be), not one-sided, it's clearly convey (no such thing as If get complain - you cant, No complain you can) - If thats the case.....it is Bias/Unjust and, and I think even rules like that are only made / or pass by - By The Parliment not by an HDB Officer...eg "Maybe you cannot keep a Drum at HDB" OMG.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

In a friendly discussion something came to my mind and I did ask the Officer.

Let's say (in the middle of the night) Cats make love at my door (which is at the HDB charge) every night and I can't sleep (you all know how it sounds like - very very loud and irritating). If I launch a Complain (That's Noise, that's disturbing isn't it)......Will The HDB Officer comes and catch those Cats...NO of course, they will say "Please refer to AVA, it is their area here"...I'm sure HDB Officer will not catch those cats, even though the cats are making noise at a HDB Flats.....right?.

If someone got murdered inside a HDB unit, whose job?...HDB Officer or Police?...Police lah of course. HDB will not do the investigation here.

So, if people complain about Noise (Drumming here), HDB says "Yes - you cannot drum"?????? and the Police here says " Disturbing the Public is also our Baby - but we enforced a Law - That stop noise before10.30pm"...Now what is what...Isn't this a grey area?

Likewise a Policeman will catch someone selling (Illegal Imported Cigarette) when they see one and not based on "If people complain then I will catch you and persecute you for selling Illegal Cigarette", if no one complain I wont catch you for selling these things even if I see you selling it - - - I'm sure a policeman wont say that...because it's never a grey area.

Singapore does encourage Arts & Music..look at Espanade (spend so much money to promote this)...and now I dont think they will say "Stop Drumming" and stop playing Music, beacuse Drumming is not Music and certainly not a Musical Instrument.

 

[jeepers]

=Blofeld

I agree, in particular, with this. I can't say I know how you feel right now, Eric, 'cos I don't. But I do sympathise with you and the other drummers who stay in HDBs.

I've never faced any problems drumming at home, my neighbours are fine fine individuals and have kids who used to drum so they understand. In my entire estate, there are loads of musicians. There are always a bunch of people practising at any one time, I've even heard mini jam sessions. My neighbours (who recently moved out) used to jam Maroon 5 every weekend and it was a blast.

For what is worth, if they ever do ban from you from drumming at home, you can come over to my place any time!

 

[soft]

The issue is not drumming but disturbance. There is no law on this but as good neighbour and person, we try to do what is best for ourself and others at the same time.

For example, if your neighbour makes salted fish or balachan every day, we also cannot tahan right?

Solution? Play soft soft, use those practise pad or play really nice song.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Bro James, and soft I did play, and restricting myself to only playing for 1 to 1 1/2 hours, 3 times a week, but still of no use, cause the neighbour just wanted me to stop drumming completely....so playing Soft is still a very subjective matters here.....if neighbour still complain - we had it liao.....hahahaha !.

There is a solution,any HDB Dweller can do here is (as advice by our Advicer Mr. Tama Goh)....make an appointment with your MP in your area and every resident can bring up issues during the "Meet The People Session".......held every month....In my case, my MP in charge of the area is Mr. Lim Boon Heng......This is my alternative.

Dear James: - as per your example, if my neighbour makes salted fish or balachan every day, we also cannot tahan which is absolutely right? But on the other hand, we also can't complain and say - Please dont eat or make Balachan everyday, or please if you want - Make it Ordourles (No smell) here - would likewise be very unreasonbale for us to tell them that. Compromising here doesn't means pleasing others at our own expense on our Favourite food which goes back to the saying of - " One man's Meat is another man's poison "

 

[lepak]

Compromising here doesn't means pleasing others at our own expense on our Favourite food which goes back to the saying of - " One man's Meat is another man's poison "

Totally agreee haha

 

[jeepers]

I agree with Eric's last paragraph, but what Mr. James has explained is valid as well. There will always be a debate on this issue.

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?"

Speaking to the MP is one solution, but then again, like Blofeld said, the HDB usually rule according to the majority, and sad to say, we drummers aren't the majority.

 

[soft]

Well, I am lucky cos my neighbour do not make salted fish or balachan everyday.

HDB is a dense living environment, we just have to be more considerate. Just like when we get into a crowded bus or mrt, we try to fit in with the crowd. Can't imagine if someone start blasting their 'breakdance' mini compo next to me.