Why do we need to pay to perform nowdays???

[carboxymoron]

I am curious about one thing, is band really appeal to us(locally)? I am not interested in band really. Also local people can pay more than $5 to watch a local performance(in different genre). The highest I bought for local performance is $22. If nobody wanna pay more than $5 for a band then sometime must be wrong there.

Price is honestly not the limiting factor. Several local bands have had sold-out shows at the Esplanade Recital Studio which is about $25 to $30 per ticket for max seating of 300, if I remember correctly.

But starting out and expecting anyone to pay a cent to see you is just wishful thinking.

so many gigs organized in one day

This is a problem. There're dry spells for weeks and then one fine Friday there'll be 3 or 4 relatively well known bands playing different locations. Shooting themselves in the foot really.

If bands hate these capitalists organizers, then bands should go ahead book and organize their own gigs

+100000

 

[kongwee]

I would say local performing group, seek their own source of income. They may not do full time. But to keep their "hobby" going, they organised themselves and seek no other people. They do their own promotion. Yes, they themselves sell their own tickets. They book their venue, print their poster/ticket and seek for their own sponsor....etc. Many of them are working adult, they put their organisation system into their performing group. They seek for young musician that have "leaders" quality to put into their administration team.

 

[ridethetiger]

theBlueark and Ancientmariner, seriously i got nothing against u too,if u both are not the "ptp" organizers.But wait,what if you both are? LoL. Come to think about it,i have said what i said,and we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' to justify we should now all adopt 'ptp'. Because at the end of the day,personally for me,i would pay $10-30 bucks to watch Quality local bands like Instrukental in the "loudest band in Singapore" competition here in soft. Quality matters.If u ask me to go down and watch "p2p' gigs that those young bands are totally unprepared but sell out the tixs cos it's their first time performing. All their uncles,aunties,cousins,primary to to secondary school friends all come. I would rather not.And that doesnt mean i dont support local acts. I do,but can't be bothered with quality-less gigs as such.

 

[lordie]

yes times has change and what local scene? look at singapore and malaysia or the rest of the region, such a joke. especially those pay to play. And band desperate to play that they willing to pay? Good bands will always get invited to play.

If a gig organiser dun have a biz model or the biz accumen to start organising a gig, DON'T start. Your effort is meanigless and will never succeed for local bands or 'scene'. if a gig organiser dun have the marketing initiatices and the network to market the gig and promote the bands and just wanna collect money from the bands and minimize their risk so they can get popular or their band may get famous.

and yeah CD do sell, trades are flourishing, distributors are more savvy the internet makes the local scene global and able to get their music across bigger audience than just 40+ folks in the crowd, and yet they can stream their live shows via youtubem etc..etc... if the band churn out good enuff music and spend effort going to the studio and creating good tracks + savvy marketing and PR. its way way way way so much better than play to pay gig. the returns are so much more. And u will get invited to play not just in singapore but overseas and all over.

Simple answer to a rather tiring question.

Rising costs, there is inflation every year but ticket prices for local gigs still remain unchanged for the last decade or so... Even gig organizers need to think of breaking even... unless you want to support them by paying for their food and transport lah...

Apathetic music listeners who does not want to pay for local gigs despite all the B.S. they spew online about supporting local music... and some of these pathetic "local music supporters" happen to play in a band. They want people to watch their band but they don't watch other bands perform... yeah, long live local music!

Profiteering venue operators who think they can charge high rent for small spaces... but nowadays land and property prices keep rising... something which "local music" scene kids have yet to understand because they don't follow the news...

Lazy bands whose idea of promotion is just to have a Myspace or Facebook account, expecting MANY people out there are dying to come to their boring shows...

Bands who still have their rock star egos stuck in their asses, thinking that times have not changed, refusing to adapt to changing conditions in today's music landscape...

Don't wish for free gigs here in Singapore (unless got big sponsor or some kids with rich daddies organize one)... even our politicians used to say there's no free lunch in Singapore... but when got free gig, you see all the lazy bands and rock star wannabes wanna play... and you have all those lip-service "we support local" kids will come and watch...

So, adapt to these changes or just go ahead and dream about the good old times that won't come back, just like how the days when bus fares were as cheap as 15 cents won't ever come back. Last time, you produce demo, got people buy. Now you spent thousands to produce CD, who will buy?

So enough said. Talk a lot also no use. Live and learn, people.

 

[lordie]

most band start small somewhere somehow but than they dun need to pay for gigs either, every country have their own history and local scene. metallica plays in garage so is exodus, etc.. (check out Get Thrashed documentary or global metal, etc..) of course every genre has their rags to stadium concerts story. Don't get paid to perform is still ok depending on what type of gigs but pay to play to the same crowd every few mths is ???!??!???

In addition, if you just starting to play in a band, start small first lah... Bon Jovi also never play in big stage in front of thousands when they first formed.. Metallica played in garage shows.. as in literally, at other people's garage... so what's wrong with pay to perform or don't get paid to perform? Seriously, who wants to watch your new band in the first place?

If your band is like established and you know for sure, and organizers know for sure, that many people want to watch you.. then you can start talking about making money from gigs...

If music to you is just hobby, then treat it as it is... a hobby... an expensive hobby... most hobbies you need to spend what? So paying to perform is part of the cost of your hobby.. if you want a cheaper hobby, maybe go collect tin cans or bottle caps...

By the way, simple economics... if there is no demand for you, why should people pay to listen to you? Why would then organizers put you in their show? So bands... instead of whining about the music scene nowadays... go and CREATE DEMAND for your own selves...

 

[ridethetiger]

Totally agree with Lordie,
All the 'ptp' organisers are not of the sincere type.Where's their biz model? Most of the time,young bands just out of frustrations of can't sell the tix,asked them " i can't sell all the tixs". What they say next? "nevermind,just pass me the total amount will do".This only adds on to the 'money is what i really want' mentality of the organisers. Talk about 'surely you don't want to play to an empty crowd" haha! why don't they say, "Just pass me the money i will give u a slot,but i can't gaurantee the turn out as i am saying all these to the other bands before n after u as well."

 

[soft]

But seriously, are there any alternative to this ptp? There were a few individuals who stood up, hit on the chest and say they will do something about it, many moons ago, but still the glimpse of light is not in sight.

 

[lordie]

Hey ridethetiger bro,

Nice to see an idealist like you still around.

FYI, I have been following the local music scene for the past 20 years. I started out as a fan, going to gigs (free ones like those at old WTC Amphi), buying demos from up-and-coming local bands (and I still keep them today), reading underground news on fanzines (before the internet). I can say that I care more about the local music scene than many online posers nowadays.

And I don't make such comments on a fancy. I have interacted and discussed this issue with many musicians and organizers. And we get very heated and blunt about this issue. But the main thing that every aspiring hardworking band must realise is that the times have changed. THE TIMES HAVE INDEED CHANGED! With MP3 and downloading, making demos or CD may no longer be sound so bands have to think of a better way to reach out...

it change for the better, so much better. than 20yrs ago. where tapes and flyers and glued stamps and 2-3 weeks turn around for a mail. now its time for local bands to excel and expand. but it always must always start with a CD, there where u can trade with distributors and other bands and use that to sell locally and recover cost. eg) if u sell your CD for $10 locally and trade it with a trade and trade CD's as Nile or rotting christ, or upcoming bands, etc..etc.. and than u use that CD to sell it locally for $20-25? set-up a band fund and tour overseas working with gig promoters and lables and sell merchandise and we emptied out 95% of our merchandise everytime we hit overseas gig.

u can ripped yer own cd's ;p put up online, give to podcast radio stations, give up free 1-2 downloads, DIY music video, etc..etc.. way way so much better than pay to play gigs.

if u dun cut the CD;s and how u going to trade or give to lable, u know u can print limited small quantity cd without compromise quality right? when i am putting out band discography sample pack to lables. i ordered 50 pcs of those blank CD-R but they thermal print the CD with band design or logo and use a jewel case and print color jackets i use it to burn hyrid CD's with music as well as videos and band bio, pictures, etc..etc... its looks damn nice to be given to big labless as well as small lables and cost the same as a pay to play gig or even lesser. You are right, times has changed, u dun need to order minmum 1000 pcs anymore or pay to play gig. band need to realise there are other ways for them to engage lables and audiences, its wise to engage 50 lables than 50 folks in a pay to play gig.

so the root of this qns is , how to attract cowd, there are more ways to attract crowd and better more efficient cost with bigger impact than a pay to play gig. bands can organised their own gigs i think some already did and the bands got $7 each minus cost after the show i think.

 

[theblueark]

theBlueark and Ancientmariner, seriously i got nothing against u too,if u both are not the "ptp" organizers.But wait,what if you both are? LoL. Come to think about it,i have said what i said,and we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' to justify we should now all adopt 'ptp'.

I haven't brought in any argument that pay-to-play is either good or bad. My whole point was that it's not new, and it's not something unique to Singapore. TS used the word "recently" which I made fun of. Cos it's anything but recent. Unless "recently" means he just found the internet yesterday, and 'old times' means 10 years ago.

He then said later on "Alamak like this how Singapore music to grow???"

As if this is a unique problem to Singapore. Green grass over the other side much?

Hey hey look what google can find.

These are pay-to-play arguments in the US:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2639376
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2572690

Go read their posts. Exact same pattern as the arguments here. Nothing new, nothing special.

If you wanna discuss ptp, sure. I've discussed it a couple of times in past threads. Just that you didn't have to make it sound like you've found something so new and so special that only exists in the country you live in.

 

[ancientmariner]

"we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' "

Whoever said must be one of the many people who are living in a vacuum and thinks that one thing doesn't affect the other...

"if u both are not the "ptp" organizers.But wait,what if you both are? LoL. "

Who said this? Already mentioned I am not an organizer...

Anyway hats off to you, Lordie bro, you used reasoned arguments to counter some of my points and I can see the validity of some of your ideas. And certainly agree with you last point: "how to attract cowd, there are more ways to attract crowd and better more efficient cost with bigger impact than a pay to play gig."

"There were a few individuals who stood up, hit on the chest and say they will do something about it, many moons ago, but still the glimpse of light is not in sight."

Yes, precisely... who's gonna do something about this? Talk is cheap...

 

[ridethetiger]

if you want to quote me,then quote the full paragraph.quoting a few words from a full sentence showed your shallowness in understanding the whole paragraph i typed. I've previously quoted your whole paragraph. See if you can do that.

 

[ancientmariner]

So...

I don't see a need to reply to your comments but for the last time, I shall make my stand on this. Feel free to comment but be rest assured, I will not respond to it (unless it is about the real issue being raised in this thread).

Anyway, I read through your comments thoroughly and I fully understand them, but it takes quite some time for me because English is not my mother tongue and I don't speak English that much. I apologize for not quoting your whole paragraph (or is it the whole post) because in primary and secondary schools, my English teachers never taught me to quote the whole comprehension passage or paragraph if I want to say my point. So thank you for bringing up this flaw in my learning and comprehension.

My final say is that let us all, you, myself and everyone else, be humble enough to accept different points of view and rebut them in an objective manner. Before we write something, let's clear our thoughts first. Before we post, read through it and see if we are being rational.

Of course it hurts our pride when people rebut our points. Hey, there are good counter-arguments to my points which I read and when credit is due, I give it to them and I accept their point of view.

But please, don't distract from the issue and turn this thread into some trivial issue.

And yeah... back to the main point, for all the talk, will there be anyone who is going to do about the "p2p" situation? The soft admin guy brought it very succinctly. Good point yet all the smart talkers have yet to respond to it fruitfully. So let's focus our energy on that.

if you want to quote me,then quote the full paragraph.quoting a few words from a full sentence showed your shallowness in understanding the whole paragraph i typed. I've previously quoted your whole paragraph. See if you can do that.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

hehe, all this is like pap vesus oppositon fellas in parliament hearings, aka

"dont tell me the problems and issues we already know, tell me what you can do to solve the problem and issues"

Oh well, end of the day, some fellas wanna be pimps there will be fellas who wanna sell and at the same time, another bunch of fellas who wanna buy. Fair and square imho.

Theres a saying in chinese, roughly translate to "you wanna hamtam someone, you must have someone who is willing to get hamtam". So, point is, what we talking here, prolly no use. Changes in the whole culture, is beyond what we can do, unless having the abilities to alter the mindset and psychological state of young fellas starting out on mass level, on top of having too much money and time to spare(organise gigs regularly and paying bands, regardless of can play, cannot play, just wanna get laid, thus i play or my mother be proud of me when i play kinda bands/fellas)

and if still wanna more fun, try reviving this thread below and see whether any rituals can be done to invoke those fellas in there to start anything, again.

http://soft.com.sg/forum/music-kopi-tiam/124394-anti-p2p-pay-play-organization-up-ready.html

 

[theblueark]

Erm ok, here you go then. I dunno why you need the whole quote since i'm not discussing any of the content in your verbal spew.

theBlueark and Ancientmariner, seriously i got nothing against u too,if u both are not the "ptp" organizers.But wait,what if you both are? LoL. Come to think about it,i have said what i said,and we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' to justify we should now all adopt 'ptp'. Because at the end of the day,personally for me,i would pay $10-30 bucks to watch Quality local bands like Instrukental in the "loudest band in Singapore" competition here in soft. Quality matters.If u ask me to go down and watch "p2p' gigs that those young bands are totally unprepared but sell out the tixs cos it's their first time performing. All their uncles,aunties,cousins,primary to to secondary school friends all come. I would rather not.And that doesnt mean i dont support local acts. I do,but can't be bothered with quality-less gigs as such.

I haven't brought in any argument that pay-to-play is either good or bad. My whole point was that it's not new, and it's not something unique to Singapore. TS used the word "recently" which I made fun of. Cos it's anything but recent. Unless "recently" means he just found the internet yesterday, and 'old times' means 10 years ago.

He then said later on "Alamak like this how Singapore music to grow???"

As if this is a unique problem to Singapore. Green grass over the other side much?

Hey hey look what google can find.

These are pay-to-play arguments in the US:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/....php?t=2639376
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/....php?t=2572690

Go read their posts. Exact same pattern as the arguments here. Nothing new, nothing special.

If you wanna discuss ptp, sure. I've discussed it a couple of times in past threads. Just that you didn't have to make it sound like you've found something so new and so special that only exists in the country you live in.


Is it too hard to understand? Maybe I should break it down for you?

theBlueark and Ancientmariner, seriously i got nothing against u too,if u both are not the "ptp" organizers.

You called me pathetic. I'm still not sure why.

But wait,what if you both are?

I'm not sure how to answer this. What if the earth was square? What kind of an answer are you looking for?

Come to think about it,i have said what i said,and we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' to justify we should now all adopt 'ptp'.

I never brought in any content to justify anything. I was talking about TS's over exaggeration of how new and how unique ptp is.

Because at the end of the day,personally for me,i would pay $10-30 bucks to watch Quality local bands like Instrukental in the "loudest band in Singapore" competition here in soft. Quality matters.If u ask me to go down and watch "p2p' gigs that those young bands are totally unprepared but sell out the tixs cos it's their first time performing. All their uncles,aunties,cousins,primary to to secondary school friends all come. I would rather not.And that doesnt mean i dont support local acts. I do,but can't be bothered with quality-less gigs as such.

What's all this information for? Is this thread: "come on everybody, tell me at the end of the day personally you like ptp or not"

In fact, you have not answered TS's main question at all.

Why do we need to pay to perform nowdays?
Your answer was: because after doing their promotions for your band,and getting gigs venue owner to agree,and print out tickets etc..the rest of the money doesn't go to any charity in Singapore,it goes to their pocket.

Doesn't seem like it answers the question at all.

Let me answer this simply. You do not NEED to pay to perform. But you have the option to. And this option is not NOWDAYS, it has been around for years.


There I have commented on everything you said. Now answer 2 very simple questions for me.

1. Is ptp new? How new?
2. Is ptp unique to Singapore?

I have a feeling you'll skip my questions again.

 

[lordie]

the point i am trying to put across is patience... there is better things a band can sped $$$ on than P2P to gain an audience and more effective way.

the band i just reform after hiatus of 15yrs got that syndrome some of the bandmates wanna play p2p but of course i veto. They have yet been exposed to what i am being exposed off with the genre we are playing but slow and steady.

P2P is just a huge waste of resources for a band to invest in, unless they can recover in terms of ROI.

there are better ways to get your music across and P2P its not one of those ways.

 

[ridethetiger]

theblueark, Seriously i don't have to answer your questions.Doesn't mean i am dodging or don't know the answers,but i got a choice to answer or not. Just like ptp whether u wanna fall into the endless cycle of useless gigs which makes u look like a silly salesman or not.It's entirely up to you. But here we are,discussing and giving new band hopefully some intelligence to avoid and shun ptp gigs. As lordie has pointed out other ways and methods,thus by adopting those other ways,we can gradually come out of this vicious ptp cycle altogether,as a whole music scene in sg depends on us. Like i said, i would rather answer the TS's question directly,then to spend another 30 posts in answering your two questions. My answer to TS's question is the same throughout and i won't change my point of view, it is just "greed". Why do we need to pay to perform? cos its the greed of organizers that's all. Why should it be so difficult to understand? Of course the more you argue that it's perfectly all right and we should all go along with the "flow of ptp" it naturally arouse my suspicions whether u are that "greedy organizer" or not, if u are not,then it's fine.

 

[ridethetiger]

"we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' "

Whoever said must be one of the many people who are living in a vacuum and thinks that one thing doesn't affect the other...

"if u both are not the "ptp" organizers.But wait,what if you both are? LoL. "

Who said this? Already mentioned I am not an organizer...


Yes, precisely... who's gonna do something about this? Talk is cheap...

Here i am ,Ancientmariner, quoting your full sentences. Look,here you mentioned 'whoever said "we don't have to bring in economical reasons and 'how society has changed' " must be living in a vacuum. Clearly,it was referring to me,but i am typing that in relation to how these factors shouldn't affect our freewill to avoid ptp gigs. Thus,u have misquoted me. But nevermind,since u have already apologized somewhere here. I forgive you,let it be.

However,i don't fully agree with "talk is cheap" everything started with a discussion,a plan,a biz model to counteract the current vicious cycle of PTP,since most bands,in fact everyone understand deep within that PTP is unworkable,but why there are still such issues? we must tackle it to the core. what Lordie said is workable.Let's discuss how to expand on that,the pros n cons of Lordie's ideas.

 

[kimura]

I would gladly 'pay to perform' if it is for a charitable cause especially something that's close to my heart. If the organizers states that they'll take a cut then I reckon a level of transparencies is needed cos organizing is by no means an easy task. As long as those who wish to partake agrees to the clauses etc.

Those organizers who take advantage of situations only manages to do so because there are willing parties.

Every post in this thread has truth in it. This is not a trend, it's been around for a long time, I am sure& despite this, our music indursty has seen growth perhaps not on an astronomical level but radio's been playing songs by local artistes, there are M/Vs of local bands etc.

There are avenues one can choose to exhibit one's talent& that includes P2P because it is a choice. NO one can say or have the right to say it is NOT the way, better choice of words could be something like "It is an avenue though not THE best.." No one has a right to dictate a band's choices unless that band put ink to paper& sign their future to the hands of someone else.

This thread took a turn because it became personal but everyone made their points. We just have to be objective for..

it's up to the bands/artistes to decide& one should live by one's decision, for the good or for the worse.

 

[theblueark]

The thread took a turn because TS asked a simple question, that has a simple answer, and emotional people are using it as an excuse to rant their personal grievances in a way that doesn't answer the question at all.

The simple answer is nobody NEEDS to pay to perform.


ridethetiger, you called me pathetic, then you won't answer any questions. It wouldn't take 30 posts. You can't even answer a simple yes or no question.

Does a new band NEED to pay to perform?
1. Yes.
2. No.


Sure, you don't have to answer my questions. I guessed as much that you wouldn't. Cos you don't treat this as a discussion thread where we go back and forth exchanging information. You treat this as your blog where you come to shout all your personal views and go LALALALA at everyone else that says differently. I took the time and showed you respect by responding to everything you said. You continue to refuse to answer extremely simple questions.

But do go ahead ignore me and rant some more. Your blog is really interesting.

 

[lordie]

got blog? eh kekekeekeke