Stayers & Quitters

[claire_p86]

Remember these words, these labels by the government a few years ago? Hehehe..

Anyway, I am just wondering - how many of you here will stay in Singapore forever, how many are contemplating of moving elsewhere, and how many are already making plans to eventually migrate?

And what's your take on this issue anyway?

Honestly, I have always admired people who have the courage to migrate and settle in new environments, despite the hardship, initial or otherwise. Like everything else in life, there are those who succeed, and those who don't. Either way, I really admire those who actually took the steps to do something about their lives - their wish to live in a new place, try new things, experience new environments, learn new things, meet new people etc.

To me, that's the essence of what being human is all about - adapting, finding out your limits and endurance, see the world and gaining different and new perspectives. Going through adversities in life has made many people better people, I think, and the rewards, the experiences, are actually priceless.

Yes, I know - as they say "The grass is always greener on the other side." meaning - to everyone else, the other place may always SEEM better but even if they are not - I believe in cherishing the experience and learning from it.

So, I wonder - what are your push and pull factors?

Of course the common pull factors are -

1) Singapore is a relatively safe place, with an efficient public transport system
2) Singapore is a relatively clean place, with a vibrant economy
3) Singapore has a relatively good education system, breeding civilized citizens
4) Singapore has a modern and stable infrastructure which we can be sufficiently proud of

And the common push factors -

1) Singapore is a relatively expensive place to live in, a lot of us are paying a quarter of a million dollars to live in a space that we don't actually own, the size of two garages in a typical American home
2) There is nothing really much to do and see in Singapore, besides the perennial chase to make money and satisfy our (often) materialistic endeavors
3) A relatively restrictive authoritarian government set of policies that seem less concerned for individuality and human rights
4) Lack of seasons, in terms of climate
5) Despite being the 6th wealthiest nation in the world in terms of GDP per capita, there are still penniless, homeless old folks living in the streets, collecting cardboxes, and some families living in tents at East Coast Park - makes you think about exactly how inflexible some government policies are, and how much they 'don't want to be a welfare state'
6) Relatively boring architecture, not blessed with breathtaking landscapes

Ok, maybe I've written too much.

Share your thoughts?

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

iam stayer coz iam too poor to have ready money to move anywhere else nor enough qualification to secure a decent job elsewhere. Like that how

Die lah, can only be a stayer for life

 

[visa]

i will travel the world when i have the opportunity, and then i will make my decision.

 

[Aki S. Ian]

No choice... have to stay.. work till death... so yeah.. unless a miracle happen.. but highly unlikely.

 

[synapse]

given a chance.. will definitely pack up and go. agree with the pull factors mentioned by the thread starter except for efficient public transport system and civilized citizens. and singapore does favour so called 'foreign talent' over locals.

its true the grass is always greener on the other side .. but the pace of life in singapore and the cost of living are major factors to consider. 'try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money then you die'

 

[zax]

I'm a sailor so i'll leave when i find a place i wanna reside in hahah . Thats the good part about the international shipping business

 

[zullio]

i wanna go to canada and migrate there. seems fun.

BUT, confirm no money to do so. so im a stayer.

 

[RoRK]

I thought our public and even our private transport systems suck!?!?!

I'm waiting to make my one-hit wonder - make enough moolah to go to Northern Thailand to set up a polygamous sect. Anybody wants to follow me? Gotch discount for Singaporeans.

It looks like a large percentage of Singaporeans will have close to $80K in their CPF that they will not be allowed to withdraw. The only way to withdraw this moolah is to denounce your citizenship and migrate. Me thinks that's a great reason to migrate to a place like Thailand, Laos or even Cambodia. But you'll have to purchase your citizenship there and it's going to cost more than $80K for Thailand - closer to $250K.

 

[theblueark]

The push and pull factors are actually 2 sides of the same coin.

1. Singapore is a relatively expensive place to live in, a lot of us are paying a quarter of a million dollars to live in a space that we don't actually own, the size of two garages in a typical American home.

Because of this we are all very near to each other and to our work places. This leads to efficiency and productivity. We make lots of money. This is actually the same for all high efficiency cities. Have you seen the size of the apartments people rent in order to work in New York or London?


2. here is nothing really much to do and see in Singapore, besides the perennial chase to make money and satisfy our (often) materialistic endeavors.

We have one of the most vibrant night scenes around, as above, similar to cities like New York. And like those cities, the people chase money in the day and have fun at night.


3. A relatively restrictive authoritarian government set of policies that seem less concerned for individuality and human rights

This actually leads to your point (1) Safe and point (2) Clean. I have discussed this at length with my friends. In my opinion there are only 2 ways of governing.

A. Catch all the fish, good or bad.
We restrict everyone, even those that don't deserve so severe a punishment. In this case, we are safe in the knowledge that no bad fish go unpunished, but we feel sorry for the good fish that happen to be caught in the net.

B. Try to catch only the bad fish.
This means the good fish have their individuality and human rights. However, it also means the bad fish can find loopholes or sometimes slip through the net. More human rights = less safe. Proven through history.


4. Lack of seasons, in terms of climate

Back to efficiency. We do not require heaters+airconditioners. We do not require all the things people need to drive/protect/maintain/etc in the snow.


5. Despite being the 6th wealthiest nation in the world in terms of GDP per capita, there are still penniless, homeless old folks living in the streets, collecting cardboxes, and some families living in tents at East Coast Park - makes you think about exactly how inflexible some government policies are, and how much they 'don't want to be a welfare state'

Unfortunately this is a similar policy of catching bad fish. The problem with allowing too much welfare to the poor is that resourceful bad seeds will come up with ways to exploit that. No country in the world has found a solution. Britain and America are 2 extreme examples of welfare and no welfare, both aren't doing well and both have relatively recently been looking to learn from Singapore's policies. I highly recommend reading "The Underground Economist" which is an economic book that non scholars can easily absorb.


6. Relatively boring architecture, not blessed with breathtaking landscapes

That's true.

 

[seekz]

One thing I quite tulan about the gov is the reservist, IPPT, and RT.

Its like "serve and farq off" has lost its meaning.
at least the farq off part...

secondly, its the political system, nope, its got nothing to do with LKY or how we're a one party rule and all thAT kinda stuff.
Well, I've been forced to say the stupid pledge half my kid life
and its say "to build a democratic soci, based on justise and equality"
But where the hells that?

i think the views of the people aren't well represented at all
I know there are zone reps, town reps, grassroot and all that
kinda division. but we hardly get to communicate with any of them
feels like some kinda mock bureaucracy.

 

[seekz]

worst part is that we always kena a policy bomb every 2-3 years.

then they'll come out and say its a hard and fast decision,
and that it'll take balls to make a decision like that, how its
always for the good of the country

man... maybe to cut it short, I'm sick of the authoritarian gov

 

[RoRK]

3. A relatively restrictive authoritarian government set of policies that seem less concerned for individuality and human rights

This actually leads to your point (1) Safe and point (2) Clean. I have discussed this at length with my friends. In my opinion there are only 2 ways of governing.

A. Catch all the fish, good or bad.
We restrict everyone, even those that don't deserve so severe a punishment. In this case, we are safe in the knowledge that no bad fish go unpunished, but we feel sorry for the good fish that happen to be caught in the net.

B. Try to catch only the bad fish.
This means the good fish have their individuality and human rights. However, it also means the bad fish can find loopholes or sometimes slip through the net. More human rights = less safe. Proven through history.

To catch bad fish, a gigantasaurus type of net is used to catch all. But to help the less fortunate a few sinker lines are thrown.

Bravo!

5. Despite being the 6th wealthiest nation in the world in terms of GDP per capita, there are still penniless, homeless old folks living in the streets, collecting cardboxes, and some families living in tents at East Coast Park - makes you think about exactly how inflexible some government policies are, and how much they 'don't want to be a welfare state'

Unfortunately this is a similar policy of catching bad fish. The problem with allowing too much welfare to the poor is that resourceful bad seeds will come up with ways to exploit that. No country in the world has found a solution. Britain and America are 2 extreme examples of welfare and no welfare, both aren't doing well and both have relatively recently been looking to learn from Singapore's policies. I highly recommend reading "The Underground Economist" which is an economic book that non scholars can easily absorb.

It is false to say that the Americans and British want to learn from Singapore. A closer truth is that everyone, to a lesser or larger extent is trying to learn from each other. In fact, it is arguable isn't it that Singapore has learnt more from them than they from us?

Secondly, to use the UK and USA as examples of welfare state is a poor choice as there are better examples in the form of the Scandinavian countries.

Thirdly, you have not considered how the rich may actually exploit less fortunate or even the system to enrich themselves further. It is simplistic and false to regard the less fortunate as the ones most likely to commit wrongs. In fact, the bigger the fish, the bigger the harm.

At the end of the day, does your country allow you to be the best that you can be and to be free while you are at it? You should include your loved ones, young and old.

 

[seekz]

yup, denmark in particular!

their people are rated happiest in the world!!!
how cool is that

 

[RoRK]

yup, denmark in particular!

their people are rated happiest in the world!!!

That's true although I was surprised that Danish women have the smallest breast sizes in Europe.

It's true, I read it in a study not too long ago. It goes to show that female breast size doesn't really matter!

 

[theblueark]

"To catch bad fish, a gigantasaurus type of net is used to catch all. But to help the less fortunate a few sinker lines are thrown."

I agree. As to if it is a better or worse method, is debatable. I actually like this method.

"In fact, it is arguable isn't it that Singapore has learnt more from them than they from us? "

I agree too. Singapore has learnt much from their mistakes. Which is why they now look to see what alternatives we have been putting in place. It is hard for them though, as their people are used to past policies and will defend their rights. Denmark and Sweden are, as you say very good examples, with policies very similar to ours. I believe we took many of their policies as examples of successful implementation.

"Thirdly, you have not considered how the rich may actually exploit less fortunate or even the system to enrich themselves further. It is simplistic and false to regard the less fortunate as the ones most likely to commit wrongs. In fact, the bigger the fish, the bigger the harm."

I agree again. The rich will exploit the poor in any society. In Singapore it is actually a lot harder as our policies are clear cut and no nonsense. E.g Bigger companies putting smaller companies out of business through sheer monetary pressure in America, suing for ridiculous claims of injustice, which they have the right to. In Singapore most of this cases would have been simply thrown out of the court.

"At the end of the day, does your country allow you to be the best that you can be and to be free while you are at it? You should include your loved ones, young and old."

At the end of the day actually you have 2 choices.
1. You are free, but the dude with evil intentions waiting to backstab everyone is free too.
2. You are not so free, and the dude with the evil intentions has 2nd thoughts.

We're opening really lengthy and in depth debates on many fronts, most of which have been debated at length many times over. It would be messy to debate all of them further here, but I'm open to creating a new thread for each subject to discuss further if you like.

 

[fuzztremecho]

probably the only state in thw world whereby you are taxed going to work and taxed going back home..ERP

if oppurtunity arise..i'll leave this place for good

 

[burt]

sorry to say this but if i have the money or talent, i would be outta here faster than any F1 machines.

but guess i would be here for a long long time.

ERP,GST,PIE,AYE, SLE,TPE, BKE,KJE, EEE...money money money. even a bloody kopi peng cost $1.40 at the coffee shop.

Stressed
Illusioned(dis)
No options
Gassed
Angry
Pay
Oppressed
Resigned
Exiled

 

[hecklerkoch]

I wonder how many of us here actually feel repressed living in Singapore.

Sometimes my friends and I discuss a lot about the processes, the policies that sometimes seem to be not beneficial to the average collared worker. I could almost feel the collective resentment when discussing -

1) The average starting pay of a graduate is only about 3 times it was 30 years ago, while the cost of living (we are among the highest in the world) has multiplied well above that.

2) The income gap disparity is actually quite obscene. Imagine ministers aka public servants, getting S$4 million dollars of annual salary, while there are still old folks bending over rubbish bins and collecting boxes and aluminum cans, trying to earn like S$10 a day. Personally, I've seen a lot of homeless people in many parts of Singapore too.

3) How we Singaporeans seem to pay through our noses for practically everything, 7% GST, 7.5% inflation, Every Road Pay (ERP) etc.

But anyway, I actually count myself lucky to live in Singapore. Can travel anywhere at any time of the day relatively safely, no need to worry about any natural disasters, no need to worry about foreign occupation and war, can have high speed internet access and type all this. :mrgreen:

I guess all of us can just learn how to count our blessings. The trick is to balance that out while maintaining our intellectual integrity, and not be insulted as intelligent human beings.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

heh, if still got time to log on internet forum and debate issues, most likely our life pretty fine actually, i think, i though, i, i , i me mine find

 

[RoRK]

It is a given that we are reasonably happy, from a personal standpoint. The issue is whether we are happy as a society or put in another way, are we, as individuals, happy to have a society as the one we have where the less fortunate are essentially left aside, where freedom of political expression is allowed, where profit means everything, etc etc etc.

We are told -
GST was raised from 5% to 7% to help the poor.

Tax on petroleum should not removed because then it will become a subsidy and subsidies fail because they distort the level of demand and could actually lead to higher prices.

Tax on water is required because otherwise people will overuse water - like drink more, bath more often, wash their cars more often etc etc etc.

HDB conservancy fees that have been collected, amount to billions of dollars. Yet delinquent payers are made to pay even higher fees as they are forced into paying legal costs for any legal action that is activated due to non-compliance.

No doubt there is a lot of good but there is also a lot of bad. At any point in time, one shoudl always strive to be better.

At issue is whether we have any intentions to make things better or sit on our laurels. Then there is the question of what is better. This is the biggest question to be answered. But once this has been answered, it has to be put into practice but only if the politicians want to do so, provided they believe that it is in fact better.

Thus far, they know better by all counts on all accounts. Maybe this is the biggest problem afterall.

I have confidence that things will eventually get better but only after it gets worse. How long the road to getting worse is, is beyond me. How long it will take towards getting better thereafter is also beyond me. I say because it is impossible for our type of society/socio-economy to continue indefinitely.