Muslims and alcohol
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hecklerkoch
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Reading something somewhere certainly does not equate acquisition of absolute facts and increase of correct knowledge, IMHO.
It is true that in the old days apostates were seen as traitors, mostly because Muslims were at war with people of other faiths, but in recent times, that has not been the case. Constitution of just about every Muslim country guarantees freedom of religion.
There is, however, social ostracizing (which can be expected anywhere) and there have been some attacks on apostates in countries such as Afghanistan and Iran, but one should not generalize.
hecklerkoch
New member
Bro, the main problem with statistics (if such detailed one stating whether the driver was a Muslim or not indeed exists) is that no one can predict the future but the chances for accidents and tragedies are dramatically increased several folds when one loses control of how much they drink and become intoxicated and lose their ability to think rationally.
Laws are written as a form or deterrence and prevention, right?
jullian_bei
New member
base on trend I do believe in 10 or 20 years Chinese will abandoned paper burning and find alternative way. In my "not so modern" hometown people still use candle and lantern but in Singapore it already replaced by eletric bulb.
alcohol banning is a good practise because alcohol does indeed have negativity. but ,imho, it also have positive side, ask the northern china peoples how alcohol served as body warm up spirit and medicine. it just did not fit desert climate since alcohol has no signficant use overthere.
maybe if the laws say, "don't drink till drunk" then the point of view will be different.
can compare the case to smoking, it serve no positively and the secular laws quickly respond to this matter by campaigning a smoking ban, but why no strong urge from religion point of view.
alcohol banning is a good practise because alcohol does indeed have negativity. but ,imho, it also have positive side, ask the northern china peoples how alcohol served as body warm up spirit and medicine. it just did not fit desert climate since alcohol has no signficant use overthere.
maybe if the laws say, "don't drink till drunk" then the point of view will be different.
can compare the case to smoking, it serve no positively and the secular laws quickly respond to this matter by campaigning a smoking ban, but why no strong urge from religion point of view.
I recommend reading The Kite Runner or watching the cartoon Persepolis. Both are true stories written by Muslims growing up in Afghanistan and Iran respectively. They give a good insight into the social impact of the rise fundamentalism and shariah law. It would be sad if Malaysia goes the same way.
The reasons are wide and varied. Some people drink to chill.Someone heartbroken drinks to forget the broken relationship etc..not everyone drink to get high just to dance and make merry.
And what is wrong with dance and make merry it is approved in most religions text and in a freemen's land.
hecklerkoch
New member
Thanks Julian, for making the smoking ban an example.
The Singapore government has progressively passed laws to outrightly ban smoking in lots of public areas and spaces, and you are penalized if you don't obey. Simple as that.
Why? Can anybody guarantee whether a person inhaling second hand smoke will definitely get lung cancer or whatnot? No, right?
BUT the laws are written in view of social order and harmony, in the interest of public health.
The same goes for Malaysia's decision to punish their Muslim citizens lah, for drinking in public.
Doesn't matter if you and I like it or not.
Simple what. Afraid of lung cancer - don't smoke. Afraid of liver cancer - don't drink. Afraid of kena langgar by lorry - don't walk on the road. Afraid of getting hit by pebbles or sharp stones - don't go anywhere near a grasscutter.
Not afraid - can do whatever the hell you want to do. Within the law, of course.
:mrgreen:
The Singapore government has progressively passed laws to outrightly ban smoking in lots of public areas and spaces, and you are penalized if you don't obey. Simple as that.
Why? Can anybody guarantee whether a person inhaling second hand smoke will definitely get lung cancer or whatnot? No, right?
BUT the laws are written in view of social order and harmony, in the interest of public health.
The same goes for Malaysia's decision to punish their Muslim citizens lah, for drinking in public.
Doesn't matter if you and I like it or not.
Simple what. Afraid of lung cancer - don't smoke. Afraid of liver cancer - don't drink. Afraid of kena langgar by lorry - don't walk on the road. Afraid of getting hit by pebbles or sharp stones - don't go anywhere near a grasscutter.
Not afraid - can do whatever the hell you want to do. Within the law, of course.
:mrgreen:
hecklerkoch
New member
fgl
Well-known member
Bro, the main problem with statistics (if such detailed one stating whether the driver was a Muslim or not indeed exists) is that no one can predict the future but the chances for accidents and tragedies are dramatically increased several folds when one loses control of how much they drink and become intoxicated and lose their ability to think rationally.
Laws are written as a form or deterrence and prevention, right?
yeah exactly - statistically if it could be proven, I guess most drunk driving cases involved non Muslims to begin with ....
RECKLESS DRIVING in Malaysia but Muslims and all religion individuals - NOW THATS ANOTHER MATTER ALL TOGETHER ....
fgl
Well-known member
ETERNALrocker
New member
Dad told me that when we were a baby he would put us in a bath of Guinness Stout so that it will strengthen us and forgot about the rest.
u may be half right!
billthegeek
New member
I think everyone can agree on the point every Muslim should follow the rules of Islam.
The true problem obviously lies with the method of punishment, or whether there should be a legal punishment in the first place.
I think caning someone for drinking is a bit too extreme, don't you think so? In fact, I even question the moral character of those who endorse the canning of Muslim alcohol drinkers...
Some of you have pointed out the harmful consequences of drinking. But to totally deny people of a chance to make the moral decision gives people little initiative for independent thinking. In Singapore, our govt counter the harmful effects of alcohol through education, not by instilling fear through the punishment of scapegoats. Educations allows people to think for themselves of the pros and cons before consuming alcohol.
In short, I believe that this law is unjustifiable and should be abolished.
The true problem obviously lies with the method of punishment, or whether there should be a legal punishment in the first place.
I think caning someone for drinking is a bit too extreme, don't you think so? In fact, I even question the moral character of those who endorse the canning of Muslim alcohol drinkers...
Some of you have pointed out the harmful consequences of drinking. But to totally deny people of a chance to make the moral decision gives people little initiative for independent thinking. In Singapore, our govt counter the harmful effects of alcohol through education, not by instilling fear through the punishment of scapegoats. Educations allows people to think for themselves of the pros and cons before consuming alcohol.
In short, I believe that this law is unjustifiable and should be abolished.
hecklerkoch
New member
The problem is that the constitution of Malaysia provides for a unique dual justice system—the secular laws (criminal and civil) and syariah laws.
Looking at the Malaysian legal system as a whole, syariah law plays a relatively minimal role in defining the laws on the country. First and foremost, syariah law only applies to Muslims. With regards to civil law, the Syariah courts shall have jurisdiction in personal law matters, for example, marriage, inheritance, and apostasy.
*Above are excerpts from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Malaysia
Say, didn't the Singapore government cane Michael Fay for vandalism? From my time in primary and secondary school, I even remember public caning was the norm, and we are talking about children, mind you. So, I don't get what is the big deal about adults being caned for drinking, even if the canes are bigger and it hurts a little bit more.
I remember when I was in Primary 5, my teacher even slapped me till my nose bled in front of the whole class, for not bringing some stupid book.
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hecklerkoch
New member
But FGL, you may be initially right.
Malaysia memang TAK BOLEH!
Kidding hor... to the Malaysians (I have loads of mostly Chinese Malaysian friends). This is just for laughs, so that we loosen up a little. Doesn't mean that I disagree with you, means I am against you. Healthy, intellectually-stimulating discussion is always welcome, for the sake of understanding and knowledge. =)
Malaysia memang TAK BOLEH!
Kidding hor... to the Malaysians (I have loads of mostly Chinese Malaysian friends). This is just for laughs, so that we loosen up a little. Doesn't mean that I disagree with you, means I am against you. Healthy, intellectually-stimulating discussion is always welcome, for the sake of understanding and knowledge. =)
Don't think so.
The problem is, making it HARD for people in Malaysia to DROP islam as their religion. Let the people choose, let them choose their own religion.
If however, you still want to be a muslim, you are still liable to muslim rules, laws and punishments, no two buts about it.
Just because seeing some muslims drinking seems normal to people here (or anywhere for that matter) doesn't mean that it is right. You choose the religion, you follow the religion. You choose to live in the country, live by its rules, or just don't get caught lah.
billthegeek
New member
LOL nice photos. :mrgreen: And I agree we shd loosen up. I'm quite tired of debating about beers. -_-
fuzztremecho
New member
Sharia law...there are several aspects of sharia law..
In plain terms and street talk, it is commonly known as Islamic Law.
However, this does not mean caning for alcohol consumption,cutting of hands for thefts..etc etc..
Sharia law deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues.
So plainly put...it is civil and criminal law within the Islamic framework/jurisprundence.
For my non-muslims brothers..there is a Syariah Court in SG and even our Singapore Legal System do have a certain form of Sharia law in the context of AMLA (Administration of Muslim Act) which deal with issues of marriage,wealth, etc etc except for criminal acts whereby its under our local CPC and Penal Code.
No worry,alcohol consumption is not under AMLA.
Indonesia-it is a secular state although it holds the largest Muslim population in the world. It does not conform to sharia laws.
Sharia laws also differ between Sunni camps and Shia camps. Even within Sunni camps there are 4 school of thoughts with different interpretations.
Case in point...consuming of pork is forbidden..a certain school of thought totally banned pork consumption and the use of its by-products, eg: pig's leather, for every day use.
Another school-yes consumption is banned but we may still use its by-products like leather, hair which is used as brushes for artworks for everyday use..
There is no strictly static set of laws of sharia.
Sharia is more of a system of law, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur'an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.
In plain terms and street talk, it is commonly known as Islamic Law.
However, this does not mean caning for alcohol consumption,cutting of hands for thefts..etc etc..
Sharia law deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues.
So plainly put...it is civil and criminal law within the Islamic framework/jurisprundence.
For my non-muslims brothers..there is a Syariah Court in SG and even our Singapore Legal System do have a certain form of Sharia law in the context of AMLA (Administration of Muslim Act) which deal with issues of marriage,wealth, etc etc except for criminal acts whereby its under our local CPC and Penal Code.
No worry,alcohol consumption is not under AMLA.
Indonesia-it is a secular state although it holds the largest Muslim population in the world. It does not conform to sharia laws.
Sharia laws also differ between Sunni camps and Shia camps. Even within Sunni camps there are 4 school of thoughts with different interpretations.
Case in point...consuming of pork is forbidden..a certain school of thought totally banned pork consumption and the use of its by-products, eg: pig's leather, for every day use.
Another school-yes consumption is banned but we may still use its by-products like leather, hair which is used as brushes for artworks for everyday use..
There is no strictly static set of laws of sharia.
Sharia is more of a system of law, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur'an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.
fgl
Well-known member
hahhahaaa
Based on his last post, Heckler has finally captured and reproduced the escense of what my initial point for starting this thread is really ALL ABOUT.
Well done Heckler - I blanja U - we go eat exotic tit bids - deep fried cockroaches dipped in chocolate sause ..hee hee my treat
Based on his last post, Heckler has finally captured and reproduced the escense of what my initial point for starting this thread is really ALL ABOUT.
Well done Heckler - I blanja U - we go eat exotic tit bids - deep fried cockroaches dipped in chocolate sause ..hee hee my treat
getting old helpless people in jail for renting a room to an illegal immigrant who had conned them....
getting caned for decorating walls....
getting slapped for not doing homework...
only fools see the downside (because it is easier to see), but smart people, they always look for the bright side... (lanzo 1966-2001)....
.....fact of life....
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