Even in flood, India's `untouchables' last rescued
- Thread starter THOA
- Start date
RudimentalDrummer
Moderator
God...how could I be left out in this kinda sort of Thread !. right? .
PS:- This is a pretty sensitive kind of Thread, but I guess you all know the rules, so play by it...Thank You All !! .... and enjoy.
Eric
PS:- This is a pretty sensitive kind of Thread, but I guess you all know the rules, so play by it...Thank You All !! .... and enjoy.
Eric
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bluepowder
New member
Glad to shed light on the issue....
I dont think any more discussion on this issue will sort issues in any way since all the points are already out there in the thread....
Lets end this issue and stop posting....
My pm box is open for further discussion...
I dont think any more discussion on this issue will sort issues in any way since all the points are already out there in the thread....
Lets end this issue and stop posting....
My pm box is open for further discussion...
=bluepowder
Beside this universally accepted authority, Bhagavad Gita Verses 18.41-18.44
Tell me who spoke manusmriti(Since you are willing to mention the lawbook)
Chapter 1
Verse: 31 and
verse: 87 to 91
and refer to Vashishta dharmashastra chapter 2 verses:13-23
Regarding your unfair treatment here in Singapore,i guess you have to think in terms of other races and not so much of caste,because caste is not applicable in Singapore context.
In any cases,your response is more like a cry for unfairness based on your encounters in Singapore rather than seeing the truth.If you can quote Manusmriti and consider yourself as hindu,then you cannot dismiss the above verses.
Beside this universally accepted authority, Bhagavad Gita Verses 18.41-18.44
Tell me who spoke manusmriti(Since you are willing to mention the lawbook)
Chapter 1
Verse: 31 and
verse: 87 to 91
and refer to Vashishta dharmashastra chapter 2 verses:13-23
Regarding your unfair treatment here in Singapore,i guess you have to think in terms of other races and not so much of caste,because caste is not applicable in Singapore context.
In any cases,your response is more like a cry for unfairness based on your encounters in Singapore rather than seeing the truth.If you can quote Manusmriti and consider yourself as hindu,then you cannot dismiss the above verses.
growlingsoulpup
New member
Thanks RudimentalDrummer for stepping in.
I just trawled through 15 pages of this thread to get here, and I'd just like to remind everyone here to keep discussions on a civil level. Martel here might hold some views that contradict the ones we hold, and we have the privilege to freely air our disagreements to it. However, keep in mind that at all times, you should only attack the points and not the person. Martel might be coming from a different perspective, but he still deserves to be treated with basic courtesy and respect, even as you seek to express your disagreement.
On the other hand, I disagree with what Martel is saying. I understand that issues of faith and religion are always sensitive, especially in the context of our multi-racial nation. However, this country was built upon the ideals of harmony, unity, democracy and equality. Therefore I would have to disagree with your argument that Sudras are more inclined to crime, and naturally and genetically unclean as compared to Brahmins, and by extension, your advocacy of the caste system.
Firstly, the darkness of the human heart is equal through humanity. All of us have the potential to murder, rape, steal or plunder. All of us have the urge to commit crimes and sins. On a scientific basis, there is no evidence that crime is genetically influenced. Unless you can state your scientific source proving that DNA plays a role in determining who is a criminal, I am inclined to disbelieve your statement.
Secondly, your statement that the caste system as created by your God and your argument that Sudras are innately unclean do not agree. I'm sure you agree with me that God is holy, clean and pure. Why then would He condemn someone to uncleanness by predetermining it from birth? Even taking karma in account, to forbid a Sudra from seeking spiritual purity and enlightenment by studying the Scriptures seems out-of-line with the compassionate nature of a Divine Being. Surely God, in all His mercy and love for mankind, would want all people to move closer to godliness and spirituality. Why would he condemn someone to evil and leave something like the course of their lives out of their control?
I understand your argument that the caste system is the natural order of things, but throughout history, progress and revolution have only occurred when people have dared to believe in the fundamental values of equality and equal opportunity. You mention the state of disrest India is currently in. Unfortunately, you fail to understand that we live in a corrupt world. Evil is something that has been present since the dawn of time. Caste system or no caste system, robbing, killing, raping and stealing will always occur.
I empathize with the hurt you must have felt by some people who, in their passion and haste to make their point, must surely have hurt your feelings by attacking you personally. I understand that your faith is something deeply personal. I myself am Christian and would hate for someone to attack me on the basis of my faith. What I think we need, however, is open-mindedness on both sides. I have presented my argument and tried to see the case from your point of view. Would you like to consider the fact that perhaps the caste system is restricting rather than helping India in their efforts to progress to a modern First World country?
I just trawled through 15 pages of this thread to get here, and I'd just like to remind everyone here to keep discussions on a civil level. Martel here might hold some views that contradict the ones we hold, and we have the privilege to freely air our disagreements to it. However, keep in mind that at all times, you should only attack the points and not the person. Martel might be coming from a different perspective, but he still deserves to be treated with basic courtesy and respect, even as you seek to express your disagreement.
On the other hand, I disagree with what Martel is saying. I understand that issues of faith and religion are always sensitive, especially in the context of our multi-racial nation. However, this country was built upon the ideals of harmony, unity, democracy and equality. Therefore I would have to disagree with your argument that Sudras are more inclined to crime, and naturally and genetically unclean as compared to Brahmins, and by extension, your advocacy of the caste system.
Firstly, the darkness of the human heart is equal through humanity. All of us have the potential to murder, rape, steal or plunder. All of us have the urge to commit crimes and sins. On a scientific basis, there is no evidence that crime is genetically influenced. Unless you can state your scientific source proving that DNA plays a role in determining who is a criminal, I am inclined to disbelieve your statement.
Secondly, your statement that the caste system as created by your God and your argument that Sudras are innately unclean do not agree. I'm sure you agree with me that God is holy, clean and pure. Why then would He condemn someone to uncleanness by predetermining it from birth? Even taking karma in account, to forbid a Sudra from seeking spiritual purity and enlightenment by studying the Scriptures seems out-of-line with the compassionate nature of a Divine Being. Surely God, in all His mercy and love for mankind, would want all people to move closer to godliness and spirituality. Why would he condemn someone to evil and leave something like the course of their lives out of their control?
I understand your argument that the caste system is the natural order of things, but throughout history, progress and revolution have only occurred when people have dared to believe in the fundamental values of equality and equal opportunity. You mention the state of disrest India is currently in. Unfortunately, you fail to understand that we live in a corrupt world. Evil is something that has been present since the dawn of time. Caste system or no caste system, robbing, killing, raping and stealing will always occur.
I empathize with the hurt you must have felt by some people who, in their passion and haste to make their point, must surely have hurt your feelings by attacking you personally. I understand that your faith is something deeply personal. I myself am Christian and would hate for someone to attack me on the basis of my faith. What I think we need, however, is open-mindedness on both sides. I have presented my argument and tried to see the case from your point of view. Would you like to consider the fact that perhaps the caste system is restricting rather than helping India in their efforts to progress to a modern First World country?
According to Atharvaveda (19.6), the Samaveda (6.4), the Yajurveda (31.1-6)
What does Purusha Sukta says in Verses 11 and 12?
In case you are a practising Hindu, i urge you to find the truth by reading with your own eyes. If you are not,then all the best. I shall pray for you.
What does Purusha Sukta says in Verses 11 and 12?
In case you are a practising Hindu, i urge you to find the truth by reading with your own eyes. If you are not,then all the best. I shall pray for you.
bluepowder
New member
The Bhagwad Gita was a part of the Mahabharat....the Mahabharat was compiled by Veda Vyasa...who was the son of a fisherman and hence a lower caste....
According to your beliefs, the Bhagawad Gita was written by a Shudra....your elitist attitude is quite ridiculous then isnt it...
Veda Vyasa....was appointed by God as Maharishi.....which is above Brahmin if you knew anything....
so lets get this straight....Veda Vyasa a shudra compiled the bhagwad gita and is a maharishi....you really think the gita decides by birth? your interpretations are ridiculous....
If you have any issues....meet me and defend your issues....dont hide behind the safety of your computer and spread your propoganda....
MODERATORS: I request this thread be closed....spreading religious propoganda is disgusting in this day and age...
Martel and I and anyone interested can sort out our issues within ourselves
According to your beliefs, the Bhagawad Gita was written by a Shudra....your elitist attitude is quite ridiculous then isnt it...
Veda Vyasa....was appointed by God as Maharishi.....which is above Brahmin if you knew anything....
so lets get this straight....Veda Vyasa a shudra compiled the bhagwad gita and is a maharishi....you really think the gita decides by birth? your interpretations are ridiculous....
If you have any issues....meet me and defend your issues....dont hide behind the safety of your computer and spread your propoganda....
MODERATORS: I request this thread be closed....spreading religious propoganda is disgusting in this day and age...
Martel and I and anyone interested can sort out our issues within ourselves
Not to worry,i am not hurt by people whose quality are in the mode of ignorance. They only want to win without logic.Also,they are probably without any faith or religion,why should i be hurt? But at least you have a religion,and may the Lord bless you for being a good christian.
Regarding the restriction on progress,well again it boils down to what progress really means.Material progress and people behaving badly or spiritual progress where the basics are met and everyone act according to God's laws.
oh my! you exhibited the symtoms of Tama-Guna. why? my friend. Why the violence in you? Peaceful talks can achieve something unless you are afraid of eating back your words later. I pray you be calm about this.
bluepowder
New member
Without Logic???
Read your own post...In this post itself you have stated that caste is determined by:
(1)character
(2) DNA
(3) Birth
Religion is not about coming out swinging your dick and quoting verses....stop hiding behind numbers and verses....and START UNDERSTANDING the religion....
I am quite sickened by this thread....and I dont really care about being banned or anything....but I am quite sickened by you Martel...because its people like you whos fanatical belief in man-made caste systems...is holding India behind..and whats more you propogate it as the words of Vishnu which is quite untrue....
I am not going to post in this thread again or read it...the facts are here...enough for people to decide....
pm me if you like....
Isn't there a clear distinction between a compiler and the speaker? Who spoke the Gita? and what does the Gita says about the Caste system. You are gradually going out of context. When and if the lord empowers anyone,even a fisherman can be a prophet/compilier/sage/author. You can ask any muslim about it.
But the point is you claim the caste system is invented by Men,so i am quoting these sources for you to see.
In before da lock!!!
okok serious..I've read from page 1 til now...its very interesting. I stand with majority of ppl's veiw in this. Theoretically this class/caste system sounds good, but in practice it will never work, because human will always abuse the powers they have. Eg the flood news. So why still wanna use it if doesn't work AT ALL?
P/S: After reading Rudimental's comment below, its not my intend to question the religion. Although not a hindu I don't believe this caste system is made by god. Therefore my comment is about the caste issue itself.
okok serious..I've read from page 1 til now...its very interesting. I stand with majority of ppl's veiw in this. Theoretically this class/caste system sounds good, but in practice it will never work, because human will always abuse the powers they have. Eg the flood news. So why still wanna use it if doesn't work AT ALL?
P/S: After reading Rudimental's comment below, its not my intend to question the religion. Although not a hindu I don't believe this caste system is made by god. Therefore my comment is about the caste issue itself.
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RudimentalDrummer
Moderator
Wellll......see.eee my dear Bros/Sis here - that's the reason why "Very Sensitive Issue" pertaining to Religions, Race and many other Super-Sensitive Issue are not permitted by many well-managed forums - as a discussion....This is envisage from all the feedback and post here.
But I've something to say though...actually I'm pretty happy at the way most of you had (managed in your own way here) to try not to go over-board - this is the good thing, as we can see everyone is really trying their very very best (and it's 15-pages long Thread now) and iin still a manageable condition .... arguement and exchange of views there is and of course for such sensitive discussion - - -we all can expect from the start, things are going to turn pretty nasty (not so nice here) just......When??????
This Thread will not be locked as now (not at the way) you guys are managing it in a rather healthy manner......continue the discussion - - - just keep it that way, remember attack the issue - not a Person...we all have our very own beliefs (makeup of the way we are being brought up, the environment we live in, our own differences in religion & race, our educational level and too much to mentioned here though not exhaustive) ------ so this made each and everyone of us here so.oooooooooo diverse and different. We must accept this very facts here.
But if these Thread goes overboard - - - Yes we will indefinetely Locked This Thread.....but let this not happens here...bearing in mind bro THOA opened this Thread for a specific reason (to better understand this Caste System kinda things) ..... Let's continue the discussion, but in a way that it doesn't goes off-hand here - so everyone can still futher the discussion from here - - - - and gain some insights.
PS: - but try not to start quoting "Quotes" from (you know what I mean) - There will be no end to it lah...The whole Book will be quoted...How?
Let There Be Peace ...hahahaha.
But I've something to say though...actually I'm pretty happy at the way most of you had (managed in your own way here) to try not to go over-board - this is the good thing, as we can see everyone is really trying their very very best (and it's 15-pages long Thread now) and iin still a manageable condition .... arguement and exchange of views there is and of course for such sensitive discussion - - -we all can expect from the start, things are going to turn pretty nasty (not so nice here) just......When??????
This Thread will not be locked as now (not at the way) you guys are managing it in a rather healthy manner......continue the discussion - - - just keep it that way, remember attack the issue - not a Person...we all have our very own beliefs (makeup of the way we are being brought up, the environment we live in, our own differences in religion & race, our educational level and too much to mentioned here though not exhaustive) ------ so this made each and everyone of us here so.oooooooooo diverse and different. We must accept this very facts here.
But if these Thread goes overboard - - - Yes we will indefinetely Locked This Thread.....but let this not happens here...bearing in mind bro THOA opened this Thread for a specific reason (to better understand this Caste System kinda things) ..... Let's continue the discussion, but in a way that it doesn't goes off-hand here - so everyone can still futher the discussion from here - - - - and gain some insights.
PS: - but try not to start quoting "Quotes" from (you know what I mean) - There will be no end to it lah...The whole Book will be quoted...How?
Let There Be Peace ...hahahaha.
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RudimentalDrummer
Moderator
Now I will join in this discussion in a small way - My opinion on this is:-
I do have friends (my ex-colleagues) who is so-called a Lower-Class man (but he has a very nice character) and he married a woman (his wife now) from a higher caste-system - here in Singapore (both their parents are Singaporeans)....they are not Indians but Singh - The girl after marrying my friend was disowned by the Family (unfortunately), however fortunately too this happens here in Singapore (that's all the parents or anyone could do) ... because we have a Bigger-System here within Singapore.
So, some people (very small fraction I would say) still do practice this right ? (the older ones maybe) ? -
My stand is - - - I do agree that we as Humans are from the day we were born "Imperfect" and we will remain "Imperfect" till the day we die - we are merely Humans.....remember there is this song "We're only humans, born to make mistakes" something like that lah...the chorus Kekekeke.
But - I will never admit that we are a Born-Loser ?, how could that be...The day I am born, I am already destined to be a Loser ????, or I have to submit to the next baby (sleeping in the cradle beside me says in Mount Elizebeth or KK Hospital lah)......because if this is true -then there is really no-point studying so much, working so hard, trying to do our best in life and even be good - because our life had already been predestined...It is call FATE....and one is fated to be born as a lower-class will be a low-class (forehead chop with the words - low-class or in this case - it's the Surname that shows you are a low-class). The smarter ones will change their names (in Singapore you can do that I believed) - - and if these happens - - - - - - chai-lat.
No we should have a Choice in life, God help those that would help themselves...probably in life yes...fate/luck do exists (a little here & there but ... the rest is really up to us. Or else we can all simply push whatever things wrong or happens to us for what we have done, or what we are today to ...( God or Fate) ...It's really not our fault, cause we are coined once born to do wrong things, or to earn less and get a lousy job under the submission of others (cause lower-class mah)......
This way it will also make us all very irresponsible because we can then push whatever wrong doing to fate..right it's predestined ---- No - we must all be accountable for our own action. If we earn less or we didn't get a well paying job or be rich (it is not predestined), partly it is luck ( I do agree) but we must put in the effort to achieve what we want too .
So in Singapore whether you are a (high or low class) -you kill you murder - you must pay for your action - both in the same fair manner.....just akin to Soft.com - - - you frame someone, you are too much, keep on making trouble - you will be indefinetely Banned too..
Oh and yes - at Soft - - - we don't have high and low class distinction ( we only have friendly Moderators who have a tough job to do moderation here) - - and all of you are treated in the same fair manner ... just have fun everyone !
Someone once said to me and I would like to pass this message to you all here too - He said
The day you were born - you are already a Winner. Why? because you all have to swim and beat millions before you could come into this World out here, so how could you be a Born-Loser? ... Yes so all of you who is reading this Thread now - You are all Winners and you've beat millions to be here .... and was never a Born-Loser of a lower class my dear Bros and Sisters.
PS:- Though I do not agree to the Caste System - however I do really admire martel for standing so strongly and firmly in his own Beliefs, unbelievable to me here, of a person so strong (in his faith - if this has something to do with religion here) in this century, especially here in Singapore. This is good example (why is it - that for a country) in order for Harmony to exists there must not be disparity cause by Religion/Race whatever being the main cause (not the only though) for a Division among people that would hamper a country's growth.
Eric
I do have friends (my ex-colleagues) who is so-called a Lower-Class man (but he has a very nice character) and he married a woman (his wife now) from a higher caste-system - here in Singapore (both their parents are Singaporeans)....they are not Indians but Singh - The girl after marrying my friend was disowned by the Family (unfortunately), however fortunately too this happens here in Singapore (that's all the parents or anyone could do) ... because we have a Bigger-System here within Singapore.
So, some people (very small fraction I would say) still do practice this right ? (the older ones maybe) ? -
My stand is - - - I do agree that we as Humans are from the day we were born "Imperfect" and we will remain "Imperfect" till the day we die - we are merely Humans.....remember there is this song "We're only humans, born to make mistakes" something like that lah...the chorus Kekekeke.
But - I will never admit that we are a Born-Loser ?, how could that be...The day I am born, I am already destined to be a Loser ????, or I have to submit to the next baby (sleeping in the cradle beside me says in Mount Elizebeth or KK Hospital lah)......because if this is true -then there is really no-point studying so much, working so hard, trying to do our best in life and even be good - because our life had already been predestined...It is call FATE....and one is fated to be born as a lower-class will be a low-class (forehead chop with the words - low-class or in this case - it's the Surname that shows you are a low-class). The smarter ones will change their names (in Singapore you can do that I believed) - - and if these happens - - - - - - chai-lat.
No we should have a Choice in life, God help those that would help themselves...probably in life yes...fate/luck do exists (a little here & there but ... the rest is really up to us. Or else we can all simply push whatever things wrong or happens to us for what we have done, or what we are today to ...( God or Fate) ...It's really not our fault, cause we are coined once born to do wrong things, or to earn less and get a lousy job under the submission of others (cause lower-class mah)......
This way it will also make us all very irresponsible because we can then push whatever wrong doing to fate..right it's predestined ---- No - we must all be accountable for our own action. If we earn less or we didn't get a well paying job or be rich (it is not predestined), partly it is luck ( I do agree) but we must put in the effort to achieve what we want too .
So in Singapore whether you are a (high or low class) -you kill you murder - you must pay for your action - both in the same fair manner.....just akin to Soft.com - - - you frame someone, you are too much, keep on making trouble - you will be indefinetely Banned too..
Oh and yes - at Soft - - - we don't have high and low class distinction ( we only have friendly Moderators who have a tough job to do moderation here) - - and all of you are treated in the same fair manner ... just have fun everyone !
Someone once said to me and I would like to pass this message to you all here too - He said
The day you were born - you are already a Winner. Why? because you all have to swim and beat millions before you could come into this World out here, so how could you be a Born-Loser? ... Yes so all of you who is reading this Thread now - You are all Winners and you've beat millions to be here .... and was never a Born-Loser of a lower class my dear Bros and Sisters.
PS:- Though I do not agree to the Caste System - however I do really admire martel for standing so strongly and firmly in his own Beliefs, unbelievable to me here, of a person so strong (in his faith - if this has something to do with religion here) in this century, especially here in Singapore. This is good example (why is it - that for a country) in order for Harmony to exists there must not be disparity cause by Religion/Race whatever being the main cause (not the only though) for a Division among people that would hamper a country's growth.
Eric
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Martel, I have a very big problem with your stand here.
Please support your nonsense about DNA with citations from biomolecular scientists.
As much as you profess to be a true adherent, you are spiritually bankrupt.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda#Principles_and_philosophy
After doing so, I hope you are suitably ashamed of yourself. I can only hope your spiritual advancement will start from now.
Thanks to everyone else for standing up for equality and respect among all humans.
and bluepowder, you are a good man.
Please support your nonsense about DNA with citations from biomolecular scientists.
As much as you profess to be a true adherent, you are spiritually bankrupt.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda#Principles_and_philosophy
After doing so, I hope you are suitably ashamed of yourself. I can only hope your spiritual advancement will start from now.
Thanks to everyone else for standing up for equality and respect among all humans.
and bluepowder, you are a good man.
There is plenty of stuff in sacred books that doesn't really fit well with the laws and social norms of modern society.
For example, from the bible (book of exodus), on the topic of slavery..."If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her".
This sort of stuff was used by slave owners and slave trades as righteous justification for their trade. The bible hasn't changed but our society sure has.
There is nothing to admire in Fundamentalism.
For example, from the bible (book of exodus), on the topic of slavery..."If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her".
This sort of stuff was used by slave owners and slave trades as righteous justification for their trade. The bible hasn't changed but our society sure has.
There is nothing to admire in Fundamentalism.
Rudimental=however I do really admire martel for standing so strongly and firmly in his own Beliefs
My word! Eric, I cannot really believe you said that. By the same yardstick, you would express admiration for every fanatic (religious or political) that comes along because you can be very sure all of them will have strong convictions of their beliefs (misguided and dangerous as they are wont to be).
To me there is very little to separate martel's twisted take on Hinduism and writings along this line:
"Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis."
That was said in 1920 by a rather infamous man (Source: D Irving, The War Path: Hitler's Germany 1933-1939. Papermac, 1978, p.xxi).
Here, we accord each other the respect to differing views; we practice tolerance of a diversity of political (to some extent here) and religious beliefs, and the national constitution enshrines the equality of all of its peoples. But these do not mean we will be blind to the fanatic that comes along. Have we become so cocooned in our little island we do not know what forms extremism take? Are we so ignorant of history that we have not learned the lessons that were dearly paid for by our forefathers?
My word! Eric, I cannot really believe you said that. By the same yardstick, you would express admiration for every fanatic (religious or political) that comes along because you can be very sure all of them will have strong convictions of their beliefs (misguided and dangerous as they are wont to be).
To me there is very little to separate martel's twisted take on Hinduism and writings along this line:
"Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis."
That was said in 1920 by a rather infamous man (Source: D Irving, The War Path: Hitler's Germany 1933-1939. Papermac, 1978, p.xxi).
Here, we accord each other the respect to differing views; we practice tolerance of a diversity of political (to some extent here) and religious beliefs, and the national constitution enshrines the equality of all of its peoples. But these do not mean we will be blind to the fanatic that comes along. Have we become so cocooned in our little island we do not know what forms extremism take? Are we so ignorant of history that we have not learned the lessons that were dearly paid for by our forefathers?
visa
New member
I think RudimentalDrummer was just trying to be civil and polite.
Here are my personal opinions that I'd like to add:
Philosophically speaking, I don't think ANYBODY should be excessively headstrong in their beliefs- anybody who claims absolutely certain that he understands or knows the whole truth about a matter is probably wrong, due to the nature of knowledge itself.
Now, about the caste system. First of all, while I don't feel this is actually relevant- I am an Indian myself, my father is an Indian citizen who is of somewhat agricultural background and my mum is a Singaporean citizen whose grandparents were teachers, I think. I have no idea what my caste is, nor do I give a damn. My ex-girlfriend was a Punjabi girl who's from a Sikh family and her parents very strongly disapproved of our relationship, so I have faced that sort of discrimination within that community.
The CONCEPT of the caste system is pretty solid. The way I understand it, humanity as a whole is like a single human being, with the head/brains, arms/torso, legs, feet, etc. The nice thing about this concept is that it suggests that we all need each other, and that the head (brahmins- teachers, scholars, thinkers) help the arms (government, management, rulers, authorities) understand what they should be doing, and the torso/legs (the general public and masses) support the whole system. Without the head, the arms would do the wrong things, without the arms, nothing can be done, and without the legs, society itself is crippled. It's a beautiful way of looking at how we all contribute to society.
The UGLY part of this? Entitlement mentality, and the absence of meritocracy. Every society has its head, arms and legs- even right here in Singapore. The difference? Our society believes that your position in society should be determined by your actions and your capability. Imagine this- a family of "heads" has been producing great and sound thinkers for generations. Suddenly, however, the children turn out to be mentally retarded. Should they be given the roles of advisors anyway, simply because of birthright?
Similarly, imagine a child from a family of "feet", full of poverty and suffering and vices. He has a thirst for knowledge- whether in-born or nurtured, it doesn't matter. He works hard, pays for his own education, and betters his "head" classmates at intellectual discussion and capacity. Should he be denied the right to lead, simply because of who he was born to?
Such restrictions utterly waste the potential of our humanity. In economic terms, this allows those in power to remain unchecked and inefficient, and it discourages those from poorer backgrounds from realizing their maximum potential because society doesn't choose to recognize them.
Abraham Lincoln was born to uneducated farmers. He would have not been able to make his contributions to mankind if he were forced to remain a farmer.
The Caste system, like Communism, sounds like a perfect system until you implement it on imperfect human beings, who will naturally exploit it to the best of our ability. You only need to look around to see that it is not a very successful system in today's context. Corruption is rampant and progress is limited.
I know I will not be successful in changing Martel's strong beliefs, but please look to common sense and see the caste system for what it really is- a backward system which fulfilled it's purpose of keeping order and stability in the feudal era, but does not belong in modern society today.
Here are my personal opinions that I'd like to add:
Philosophically speaking, I don't think ANYBODY should be excessively headstrong in their beliefs- anybody who claims absolutely certain that he understands or knows the whole truth about a matter is probably wrong, due to the nature of knowledge itself.
Now, about the caste system. First of all, while I don't feel this is actually relevant- I am an Indian myself, my father is an Indian citizen who is of somewhat agricultural background and my mum is a Singaporean citizen whose grandparents were teachers, I think. I have no idea what my caste is, nor do I give a damn. My ex-girlfriend was a Punjabi girl who's from a Sikh family and her parents very strongly disapproved of our relationship, so I have faced that sort of discrimination within that community.
The CONCEPT of the caste system is pretty solid. The way I understand it, humanity as a whole is like a single human being, with the head/brains, arms/torso, legs, feet, etc. The nice thing about this concept is that it suggests that we all need each other, and that the head (brahmins- teachers, scholars, thinkers) help the arms (government, management, rulers, authorities) understand what they should be doing, and the torso/legs (the general public and masses) support the whole system. Without the head, the arms would do the wrong things, without the arms, nothing can be done, and without the legs, society itself is crippled. It's a beautiful way of looking at how we all contribute to society.
The UGLY part of this? Entitlement mentality, and the absence of meritocracy. Every society has its head, arms and legs- even right here in Singapore. The difference? Our society believes that your position in society should be determined by your actions and your capability. Imagine this- a family of "heads" has been producing great and sound thinkers for generations. Suddenly, however, the children turn out to be mentally retarded. Should they be given the roles of advisors anyway, simply because of birthright?
Similarly, imagine a child from a family of "feet", full of poverty and suffering and vices. He has a thirst for knowledge- whether in-born or nurtured, it doesn't matter. He works hard, pays for his own education, and betters his "head" classmates at intellectual discussion and capacity. Should he be denied the right to lead, simply because of who he was born to?
Such restrictions utterly waste the potential of our humanity. In economic terms, this allows those in power to remain unchecked and inefficient, and it discourages those from poorer backgrounds from realizing their maximum potential because society doesn't choose to recognize them.
Abraham Lincoln was born to uneducated farmers. He would have not been able to make his contributions to mankind if he were forced to remain a farmer.
The Caste system, like Communism, sounds like a perfect system until you implement it on imperfect human beings, who will naturally exploit it to the best of our ability. You only need to look around to see that it is not a very successful system in today's context. Corruption is rampant and progress is limited.
I know I will not be successful in changing Martel's strong beliefs, but please look to common sense and see the caste system for what it really is- a backward system which fulfilled it's purpose of keeping order and stability in the feudal era, but does not belong in modern society today.
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Dearest martel,
I respect your strong personal beliefs but as much as you think you're right, I find it wrong that you're enforcing your beliefs on others. You seem insistent that whatever you think about Hinduism is right and it is the only way. You did not even give a thought of what bluepowder had said and instead blatantly declared that what he thought was wrong. In a faith, everyone has his/her own ways of doing things and viewing things. Hinduism is just as open as to anyone's interpretation. However, it's unjust and not commendable when you stick firmly to your views and dismiss others' point of views. I believe a lot of religions talk about spiritual freedom and Hinduism isn't an exemption. If you're convinced that your interpretation is 100% true, I will safely say you've not gained any form of spiritual freedom and you're as much as a fanatic as the Nazis were. Due to the nature of religions, no interpretation is 100% true and I will not question that unless you're the creator of Hinduism. So, I hope you would be kinder to others and stop imposing your views on others.
I believe the main motive of this thread is to discuss if the caste system is of any usefulness in today's context and in live-threatening situations. Your views have spurred many angry responses and to be frank, I wasn't at the least surprised. There's no point fighting over different thoughts and interpretations on Hinduism, so please let's just dwell on the main issue and prevent ourselves from getting stuck in a deadlock.
I will admit I'm not your greatest fan and I'm trying to write as much as I can without any hint of emotional provocation. I hope you can understand the gravity of this issue and instead start to comment in a more mature and less aggressive way.
Yours sincerely,
empihsrow
I respect your strong personal beliefs but as much as you think you're right, I find it wrong that you're enforcing your beliefs on others. You seem insistent that whatever you think about Hinduism is right and it is the only way. You did not even give a thought of what bluepowder had said and instead blatantly declared that what he thought was wrong. In a faith, everyone has his/her own ways of doing things and viewing things. Hinduism is just as open as to anyone's interpretation. However, it's unjust and not commendable when you stick firmly to your views and dismiss others' point of views. I believe a lot of religions talk about spiritual freedom and Hinduism isn't an exemption. If you're convinced that your interpretation is 100% true, I will safely say you've not gained any form of spiritual freedom and you're as much as a fanatic as the Nazis were. Due to the nature of religions, no interpretation is 100% true and I will not question that unless you're the creator of Hinduism. So, I hope you would be kinder to others and stop imposing your views on others.
I believe the main motive of this thread is to discuss if the caste system is of any usefulness in today's context and in live-threatening situations. Your views have spurred many angry responses and to be frank, I wasn't at the least surprised. There's no point fighting over different thoughts and interpretations on Hinduism, so please let's just dwell on the main issue and prevent ourselves from getting stuck in a deadlock.
I will admit I'm not your greatest fan and I'm trying to write as much as I can without any hint of emotional provocation. I hope you can understand the gravity of this issue and instead start to comment in a more mature and less aggressive way.
Yours sincerely,
empihsrow
A Human being should be judged by his/her virtues, actions and not by their birthright or so called "standing". to judge a human on their so called "standing" is an exercise in stupidity of the lowest form.
to exalt a human onto a position of power and authority becos of his status/standing/caste even if tt person is clearly inept, inefficient, utterly useless n lazy, over a person from a lower caste/standing who is efficient, knowledgeable, is ridiculous. It defies logic. No sane, logical person wld have an inept person lead them no matter their status or so called high birth. society wld not progressed if the mentality of humans is tt only those born into a higher class is allowed to lead or be in a position of power and authority. tt is breeding corruption. Corruption of every kind especially of the human spirit.
power and authority has been abused by ppl in high positions for too long all in the name of birthright. it has to be stopped.
how can there be spiritual progress when those so called "betters"(higher caste) take advantage of their so called "lessers"(lower caste)?
Humans have the capacity to love and at the same time are very very capable of doing anything anything at all to further their own needs and satisfy their own desires.
Free will, to me tt is a gift AND a curse
to exalt a human onto a position of power and authority becos of his status/standing/caste even if tt person is clearly inept, inefficient, utterly useless n lazy, over a person from a lower caste/standing who is efficient, knowledgeable, is ridiculous. It defies logic. No sane, logical person wld have an inept person lead them no matter their status or so called high birth. society wld not progressed if the mentality of humans is tt only those born into a higher class is allowed to lead or be in a position of power and authority. tt is breeding corruption. Corruption of every kind especially of the human spirit.
power and authority has been abused by ppl in high positions for too long all in the name of birthright. it has to be stopped.
how can there be spiritual progress when those so called "betters"(higher caste) take advantage of their so called "lessers"(lower caste)?
Humans have the capacity to love and at the same time are very very capable of doing anything anything at all to further their own needs and satisfy their own desires.
Free will, to me tt is a gift AND a curse
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