Even in flood, India's `untouchables' last rescued

[betsybug]

visa=I think RudimentalDrummer was just trying to be civil and polite.

None of us here have been uncivil to martel. Civility is one thing; stating admiration is whole different thing, and sends a very different message. But, let's move on.

visa=please look to common sense and see the caste system for what it really is- a backward system which fulfilled it's purpose of keeping order and stability in the feudal era, but does not belong in modern society today.

Yes, nicely put. My view too.

empishrow=I find it wrong that you're enforcing your beliefs on others.

To be fair, martel did not do any enforcing. He's just stated a whole of bunch of viewpoints which we find objectionable.

Like visa said, we won't change his views - what we are doing instead is to stake out the ground that says this is what the community says is acceptable, and practicable in our society.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

PS:- Though I do not agree to the Caste System - however I do really admire martel for standing so strongly and firmly in his own Beliefs, unbelievable to me here, of a person so strong (in his faith - if this has something to do with religion here) in this century, especially here in Singapore.

Eric

betsybug, it is true isn't it ? that the opponents to the caste system here (is practically - All to one as against martel beliefs) - - - - - - unbelievable, as to many of us here (as what I quoted above) ... yet martel stick to his stand here still

If someone says (as an example here) - " I admire your stubborness, that even till death - you are sticking to what you so strongly believed in " - It doesn't means - he is in support or encouraging that person to stick to his stubborness, am I right? ..... Some things especially Beliefs & Values can usually be most of the time be so deeply ingrain in a person mind, that it will be unable (or almost impossible) to change one's mind thinking in what they strongly believe in (sad to say though), no matter what happens...

That's why, not everyone thinks alike.

 

[snuffleupagus]

Mindboggling!

Martel, how old are you, and how long have you been in Singapore?

 

[wyldeboon]

still haven finish ah?

 

[THOA]

As the starter of this thread I feel the need to inject my stand to this.

bearing in mind bro THOA opened this Thread for a specific reason (to better understand this Caste System kinda things) ..... Let's continue the discussion, but in a way that it doesn't goes off-hand here - so everyone can still futher the discussion from here - - - - and gain some insights.

Yes, that IS my purpose for starting this thread: to gain insight. I personally think as a nation that was based on muticultural and multireligious understanding... there are plenty of things about Buddhism, Christianity and Islam being talked about and somewhat being understood by people that are not of that belief, but I feel that there is not enough understanding of the faith practiced by the "minority" race, for example Hinduism.

(Wait... minority? Dammit, India is the second most populated country in the world, but most of us are still clueless about their believes.)

The CONCEPT of the caste system is pretty solid. The way I understand it, humanity as a whole is like a single human being, with the head/brains, arms/torso, legs, feet, etc. The nice thing about this concept is that it suggests that we all need each other, and that the head (brahmins- teachers, scholars, thinkers) help the arms (government, management, rulers, authorities) understand what they should be doing, and the torso/legs (the general public and masses) support the whole system. Without the head, the arms would do the wrong things, without the arms, nothing can be done, and without the legs, society itself is crippled. It's a beautiful way of looking at how we all contribute to society.

The UGLY part of this? Entitlement mentality, and the absence of meritocracy. Every society has its head, arms and legs- even right here in Singapore. The difference? Our society believes that your position in society should be determined by your actions and your capability. Imagine this- a family of "heads" has been producing great and sound thinkers for generations. Suddenly, however, the children turn out to be mentally retarded. Should they be given the roles of advisors anyway, simply because of birthright?

I think Visa hit the nail on the head with this, cos I have a similar understanding of what the caste (or perhaps, more correctly the CLASS system) is all about.

And as much as a lot of you might agree or disagree to the system, like it or not it exist, even in a place as culturally and racially tolerable in Singapore, it EXIST. I think two of our fellow Softies have shared their story about the caste system, having people being disowned by their families and all. I have friends who are Indians who suffered similar fate. It might not be India, it might not be AS bad, but to have your family disown you is still not a good thing.

Hence, this thread was started, in lieu of the news of floods in India, whose article chose to take a humanitarian stand of things. I honestly had to take that article with a pinch of salt: does the writer... no wait, does society know enough of the Indian caste/class system to actually criticize it? What drives a centuries old system that seems to be discriminatory to its own people to be able to last all those years?

It is not about making sense. Alot of philosophies and believes in other faith don't make scientific sense too eg reincarnation, angels and demon, heaven and hell, God etc. But we chose to believe it anyway. I think only the people who practice that belief have the right to scrutinies and challenge it. As for the rest of us, best to back off a bit.

What I am trying to gather is mere knowledge about the system.

 

[betsybug]

eric=betsybug, it is true isn't it ? that the opponents to the caste system here (is practically - All to one as against martel beliefs) - - - - - - unbelievable, as to many of us here (as what I quoted above) ... yet martel stick to his stand here still

Well, I for one will never think that there is anything admirable in the Nazis' tenacity and efficiency in wiping out Jews and "non-persons", nor the Japanese nationalists' steadfast insistence that the Nanjing massacre was a fabricated lie, nor a Taliban's stubborn view that all infidels are fair game. You have to ask what is it that they are being tenacious and efficient, steadfast, and stubborn about? Context is everything, isn't it?

In fact, if you follow the developments with the JI detainees, you will note that the government has said how difficult it is to rehabilitate them. It is that very stubbornness that makes them so fearsome and threatening to society.

But this is a "side-show" to the larger debate - we were talking about caste, yes?

I read sometime ago that the present-day practice of the caste system in India is actually not supported in any of the Hindu scriptures. It has degenerated into a social system which merely helps to perpetuate the well-being of the powerful and keep the disenfranchised (surprise surprise, it's the Sudras) in their lowly positions. Further, that in the original conception, you are not automatically a caste member just because you are born into a caste. So, you are not a Brahmin unless you have undergone strict training and successfully fulfilled the required (and probably onerous?) obligations. That is why martel's "stick with your own kind" prescription fairly sticks in my craw.

 

[Vaiyen]

props to you betsybug

 

[visa]

Betsybug:

Not to continue with this side-story, but you missed out on the second part of RudimentalDrummer's argument, which is-

If someone says "I admire your stubborness" - It doesn't mean that he is in support or encouraging that person to stick to his stubborness.

I agree with this, but of course you can argue about the linguistic implications of the word "admiration".

I dare say we all actually feel the same way about Martel, but simply have different ways of showing it. You are not going to see RudimentalDrummer parading the streets with a flag going "You should admire martel! martel is admirable!"

It's simply a figure of speech. Different folks, different interpretations.

 

[gutturalpiss]

The caste system will never cease to exist. It is already embedded psychologically. More than 5,000 years of history, being one of the pioneering lands of the modern age, it is inevitable that "classes" will remain to have a significant impact on political and social matters.

Indians will not hide it. Even out of this caste context, there are social gaps between the northerns and southerns, cityfolk and countryfolk, etc. The large population of South Indians around the globe is a direct result of this issue; so is Tamil Nadu.

However, I concur with the above - the fundamental structure of this otherwise controversial system is technically firm and useful. Since the Nazis have been brought up, I would like to put forth that Hitler himself had a solid framework for his "system".

 

[betsybug]

visa, to continue with the side-show (heheheh), you may have missed this: "It is that very stubbornness that makes them so fearsome and threatening to society". We can call it stubbornness, pig-headedness, or we can also call it fanaticism. Now the admirable quality looks quite different.

Yes, I agree Eric has better things to do than parade in support of martel . So, I will not be pig-headed myself and concede the point.

More seriously though, from the little I know of the roots of the caste system, it seems to me an elegantly laid-out conception. You have everything laid out properly, everyone has a part to play in life, God is in his heaven and all is right with the world. That is, until it gets implemented.

With the first couple of generations, it's ok - practice hews closely to concept. But with succeeding generations, self-interest and misinterpretation (well-intended, or deliberate twisting) slowly creep in to mangle the whole concept out of shape (if I'm not mistaken, didn't Prophet Muhammad prophesied the same thing will happen after his passing. I think he gave it 2 generations if memory serves. Can someone verify?).

Now, unlike gutturalpiss, I'm more optimistic. I think the caste system will pass (of course, you will still have the poor and the rich and other societal divides; just not based on castes), even in India. It will take time. But the Singapore experience shows that this can be done, and with every passing generation, fewer people will pay it any heed.

However, this brings us to where I begin to get a bit concerned with caste and SG - the influx of India-born Indians here in recent years seems to be reawakening the old, forgotten social apartheid. This has been reported in the press who took soundings from the Indian community. Local-born Indians feel that they are get looked-down upon by some of the recent immigrants (you have martel here already opining that local Indians are all of the low castes). Even as a non-Indian, it feels hurtful to hear these things bandied about.

(Please do not jump to the conclusion that therefore I'm anti-FT (foreign talent), or anti-Indian. Not at all. But I do think if the rate of influx is greater than the rate that society can readily ingest that inflow, then we will experience social issues. I dare say we have the same impact from PRC Chinese as well. And so, the local-born Singaporeans will begin to lose their sense of place or rootedness - they will not feel this is home anymore. Perhaps that may be why there seems to be unending talk of emigration nowadays. I think we need drip-feed the inflows into the SG system i.e. not have them come en-mass to the point where social structures and values get over-whelmed).

 

[THOA]

=betsybug

That is something very real indeed, and a concern that is barely spoken of for now so the attention was not really put into scrutiny. But it feels like "I dunno if it's just me or..." kinda thing.

I've always maintain the stand that the Singapore's identity was built from the fact that it had time to develop. The whole "our forefathers came from different parts of the world" reasoning is really overtly spoken of. We are talking about a cultural and societal development that yielded and formed over the a period of time from 1819, when a great influx of immigrants came. That's how Singapore was built psychologically and socially; more than 100 years of history (and we are not even talking about pre-modern Singapore yet).

But that's a topic worthy of another thread.

I don't believe that the caste system is unique to India, but it is definitely staunchly practiced even til today. I believe in the medieval times of many society, the caste system is a common norm. I believe our forefathers also had gone through such a system of their own.

My question is: Why do you think then that the practice still reigns till today in modern India?

 

[Vaiyen]

because naturally the ruling class would want to perpetuate themselves and they also have the power to do so. Not a damn thing the other classes can do, save for a nationwide riot. But hey, these people are already struggling to make ends meet so do u think they'll invest energy in these lofty ideals?

 

[gutturalpiss]

That can be answered by looking back 200 years - to the time of the British Raj. By taking advantage of the caste system, the English were able to not only segregate, but to also garner support from the upper-caste Indians.

Fuelled by the idea of an Aryan race (synonymous with Brahmin) and common descent with the foreign ruling class, it was a matter of prestige for the locals that stood to benefit from the practice. However, today, something of which I am certain about is that the common Indian parent will warn her child against socialising with those from the slums.

We can now hypothesise that social and political benefits from such a system are most significant when it comes to the Indian subcontinent.

 

[betsybug]

THOA=My question is: Why do you think then that the practice still reigns till today in modern India?

One thing we ought to note in this discussion is that this whole caste system is a pretty complex animal. Just take a look at this:

"A Gotra is a classification and identification of castes in India. It indicates lineage systems, either patrilineal or matrilineal, in the Hindu community. Gotra is used as surname in many castes. Each of the gotras is normally named after a great ancient Rishi, and belonging to a particular gotra generally implies patrilineal descension from the rishi, whom the gotra is named after. In South India, Tulu and Malayalee communities have their own lineage system that is matrilineal. The Tulu lineage system is called bari or bali and Malayalee lineage system is called illam."

Now that your eyes are glazed over, let me tell you that I got that from a marriage site. Now, I'll have you know that I don't surf those sites as a habit :mrgreen: but on my one and only trip to India, one of things that intrigued me was all these classified advertisements for life partners in the newspapers. That's when I learned that complexions can be described as "wheatish"* (a very desirable quality apparently). And, of course, in these adverts caste is a great consideration in that ultimate of social relationships, marriage, a union of not just two individuals but two families (and some people may say, two souls or two destinies).

My point is that it is not at all easy for those of us that stand outside of the system to have a true understanding of the Indian caste system (and I suspect that applies even for our SG Indian brethren); I think you need to be born within it to be able to successfully navigate its convoluted paths. It has developed over thousands of years, and even if some may judge that its utility in the modern world is past, it will take many many more years to change. India is an old, old civilisation, and one that is quite conservative and tradition-bound (which may be the answer to your question, THOA), but no society is ever immutable to change.



*maybe in SG we can have "milk-ish", "Horlicks-ish", and "Milo-ish"

 

[visa]

the caste system is still present in modern India because:

The people who are of higher castes are also the people who are educated and wealthy. They have the power to change the system, but as a community they choose not to because it is advantageous to them.

There are a quite a few young, high-caste people who are disgusted with such discrimination and would like to make a difference, but don't dare speak up or take action because the rest of their community (particularly their parents, grandparents, families) would disown them as "lower-caste-lovers" or something to that extent.

The people who are of lower castes have no power to lift themselves out of poverty and illiteracy, and subsequently can't do anything but succumb to their fate.

We will probably have to wait for the older generation to pass on and take their way of thinking with them before we really see some serious change taking place.

 

[guitarsan]

Interesting, but mind boggling stuff, this caste system.

 

[THOA]

I guess what really makes the caste system of Indian society so interesting to me is that it is perhaps the most staunch and most rigidly practice despite modern advancement and globalisation.

As I mentioned, every society has its fair share of caste secregations, I believe; whether or not its a social or even religious reasons eg monarchs and religious leaders, traders and mercheants, smiths and peasants. But today those boundaries are pretty much broken down completely or certain exceptions have been made. Each class still keep within themselves somewhat but it's not an extreme taboo to "break" tradition in most parts.

And by and large alot of such traditions that lost, especially in the East, are due to Western influences, so its a little facinating to me that India still held this caste system strongly because of Western influence. This last point on the Western influence is just an assumption, though, so perhaps I may be wrong.

 

[visa]

I don't think the West's influence has anything to do with the caste system.

These people are simply living their lives the way they have always done. It's rigidly practiced because it's advantageous for those in power, who only have their personal interests in mind.

Not everybody cares about the rest of the world, and the West's influence isn't as strong everywhere as we tend to think it is.

 

[billthegeek]

Screw the caste system. Meritocracy ftw! Let people be judged by what they do, not what family they are born into.

 

[billthegeek]

PS:- Though I do not agree to the Caste System - however I do really admire martel for standing so strongly and firmly in his own Beliefs, unbelievable to me here, of a person so strong (in his faith - if this has something to do with religion here) in this century, especially here in Singapore. This is good example (why is it - that for a country) in order for Harmony to exists there must not be disparity cause by Religion/Race whatever being the main cause (not the only though) for a Division among people that would hamper a country's growth.

Eric

Adolf Hitler stood firmly to his beliefs too. So did Joseph Stalin. Do you admire them?

Some belief must NOT be tolerated. Especially if the beliefs promotes the infringement of the rights of others, such as Nazism.

The caste system is an ideology which does NOT deserve any form of respect, in my opinion. Just like how Nazism and racism should be banned from this world. They violate the fundamental principles of human freedom.