Discriminatory Listening
- Thread starter pf
- Start date
The word discriminate means.... "to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately: to discriminate between things".
So to listen discriminately would mean to observe accurately the differences between different pieces.
As opposed to indiscriminately ..."not discriminating; lacking in care, judgment, selectivity".
Wouldn't it be strange that a musician would be indiscriminate in their listening? How can you be passionate about music when you don't care about it?
Obviously the music you like is subjective and changes constantly. However trying to figure out why you like a piece of music gives you an insight that could be applied to your own playing.
So to listen discriminately would mean to observe accurately the differences between different pieces.
As opposed to indiscriminately ..."not discriminating; lacking in care, judgment, selectivity".
Wouldn't it be strange that a musician would be indiscriminate in their listening? How can you be passionate about music when you don't care about it?
Obviously the music you like is subjective and changes constantly. However trying to figure out why you like a piece of music gives you an insight that could be applied to your own playing.
shaneypants
New member
Discriminate between, discriminate from, or discriminate against?
I thought we were referring to "against". =/ My bad.
I thought we were referring to "against". =/ My bad.
pianomankris
New member
But you have to ask yourself then why you are listening to the music.
For the sake of learning harmony, then of course, Dylan will only keep the theoretical master busy for all of 5 minutes.
That's my point.
There is a huge difference between studying a piece of music and listening to a piece of music.
The two shouldn't be confused.
Once again, this is anal, and a super-philosophy. You are goint to end up with only one 'music master' - the guy who knows all the theory, and has all the chops.
Some people can do more with 3 chords than others can manage with a complete knowledge of tritone substitution, 4-part harmony, dodecaphony etc etc
And don't think this is me dumbing down.
By all means, learn the theory - if you want to do this game for a living well, then this makes life easier. But what is wrong is using knowledge to hold your own opinion in higher esteem (when i say 'you', i mean it in the general sense).
And before you say it - no - you don't have to hear a piece of music in order to study it.
pianomankris
New member
Surely this would just lead to a stylised copy?
And you would have to define 'decent' music.
I know a few jazz guys who don't even listen to jazz. They did listen to jazz when learning, but not anymore. They want to develop their own sound now.
I think the original quote is ok for the beginner (as it gives them some direction), but for someone experienced, it is very narrow.
I'm inclined to agree with widdly. I find it very odd that one can be ignorant about their passion. Most of the time though, its really casual listening - so why bother? Besides, you're watching eMpTyV, right?
And pianomankris, then we are talking about the context of the statement made by the Jazz Musician.
And yes, you don't have learn a piece to study the piece... unfortunately... if you wanna cop the nuances of a certain style/era/genre, I find more gains when I am immersed in the musics of that certain style. Therefore, in order to 'write full orchestral scores' - there must have been a study of said style, and it would be most beneficial to actually have experienced the music first hand. If you can do so without listening to it - more power to you because you're one in a million. Makes it a little harder to make that sweeping statement "listening to complex stuff doesn't make anyone any more informed" don't you think?
Btw, I couldn't help but notice you have a negative slant towards people who learn/study music in your reply. Interesting...
And pianomankris, then we are talking about the context of the statement made by the Jazz Musician.
And yes, you don't have learn a piece to study the piece... unfortunately... if you wanna cop the nuances of a certain style/era/genre, I find more gains when I am immersed in the musics of that certain style. Therefore, in order to 'write full orchestral scores' - there must have been a study of said style, and it would be most beneficial to actually have experienced the music first hand. If you can do so without listening to it - more power to you because you're one in a million. Makes it a little harder to make that sweeping statement "listening to complex stuff doesn't make anyone any more informed" don't you think?
Btw, I couldn't help but notice you have a negative slant towards people who learn/study music in your reply. Interesting...
Hi hi
I think PF started the thread for some casual discussion and not to make the point right or wrong. We can always learn something from something right/wrong, right? Ha..ha..
Ok, allow me to use an analogy. If a swimmer is training to compete in 50m freestyle, I am sure he/she will be studying/practising/perfecting the swim instead of spending time doing rounds on the IndyCar circuit.
But these are just different school of thoughts on learning. Things get kinda boring when it is perfect. That's where experimental comes in. This is why musicians always try to infuse different culture/style and create 'new' sound.
I think PF started the thread for some casual discussion and not to make the point right or wrong. We can always learn something from something right/wrong, right? Ha..ha..
Ok, allow me to use an analogy. If a swimmer is training to compete in 50m freestyle, I am sure he/she will be studying/practising/perfecting the swim instead of spending time doing rounds on the IndyCar circuit.
But these are just different school of thoughts on learning. Things get kinda boring when it is perfect. That's where experimental comes in. This is why musicians always try to infuse different culture/style and create 'new' sound.
pianomankris
New member
ShredCow - i'm a composer - I do this for a living!! Do you want a list of the people I studied with?
I know my stuff. Feel free to challenge me, since that is what you seem intent on doing, kid!
But know your stuff as well then!
Read my other posts and you will see that I have actually provided good info.
What is annoying is people commenting on the intricacies of composition in relation to the appreciation of a piece when they don't actually understand it fully themselves.
Better to just say you 'like' or 'dislike' the music, rather than trying to sound informed on the subject matter.
chrisiscoolerthanyou
New member
to me, i listen, like means like, dont like means dont like.
like then listen more, dont like dont listen lor easyy =D
like then listen more, dont like dont listen lor easyy =D
=pianomankris
You do this for a living? More power to you I suppose - since you can start by providing a almighty list of (apparently skilful) people and thereafter, call me a kid.
Throwing your weight around is distasteful no matter how famous/good you are. Or who you've worked with.
The "challenge" (actually, it was starting to be a nice discussion, as originally intended) between you and me ends here. I see no further value to carry on talking about your points in this thread.
You do this for a living? More power to you I suppose - since you can start by providing a almighty list of (apparently skilful) people and thereafter, call me a kid.
Throwing your weight around is distasteful no matter how famous/good you are. Or who you've worked with.
The "challenge" (actually, it was starting to be a nice discussion, as originally intended) between you and me ends here. I see no further value to carry on talking about your points in this thread.
pf
New member
Yeah...beginners do learn by copying.
However, if an establish musician stops listening to others to learn...hmmm...I afraid I can't agree with that. Let me explain.
A humble pop and jazz piano teacher whom I know said last year at a recital that students come to him with various playing ability. And he said that he does learn something even from the beginner students who came to him to learn.
Just recently, I saw this pianist and his band called Jon Cleary and the Absolute Monster Gentlemen live. I have never heard people play funk jazz like them. Well, maybe I haven't heard all the funk bands in the world, but they sure do have a unique way of playing. They don't sound like Incognito, not Tower of Power and not Earth Wind Fire.
What they have is a strong New Orleans flavour in their funkiness. I always find 2 things: something new and something old in their music. There's a bit of blues, a bit of soul, a bit of r&b all mixed together. I find that they have a wonderful way of integration. I think that comes from listening to a lot of music, so that they can come up with their own style, their own sound.
I have some thoughts about learning. I'm not sure if anybody would agree to my 4Is principle, but here goes:
1) Interact
Interact with new learning materials and learn the new stuff.
2) Internalize
Internalize the new stuff and continue to do it until it can be done without thinking.
3) Integration
Integrate the new stuff with other old stuff. Mix them all around and see how they fit together.
4) Improvise
Once the above 3 steps are achieved, natually, improvisation comes into play. Not everybody has the same background, and not everybody knows everything. Hence, the interaction and integration would be different for each musician and therefore the end product of improvisation is different for everybody.
Hence, I think that if a musician were to continuously improve in improvisation, he has to be exposed to new stuff all the time. So, "not listening to others to find their own sound" doesn't make sense to me.
However, if an establish musician stops listening to others to learn...hmmm...I afraid I can't agree with that. Let me explain.
A humble pop and jazz piano teacher whom I know said last year at a recital that students come to him with various playing ability. And he said that he does learn something even from the beginner students who came to him to learn.
Just recently, I saw this pianist and his band called Jon Cleary and the Absolute Monster Gentlemen live. I have never heard people play funk jazz like them. Well, maybe I haven't heard all the funk bands in the world, but they sure do have a unique way of playing. They don't sound like Incognito, not Tower of Power and not Earth Wind Fire.
What they have is a strong New Orleans flavour in their funkiness. I always find 2 things: something new and something old in their music. There's a bit of blues, a bit of soul, a bit of r&b all mixed together. I find that they have a wonderful way of integration. I think that comes from listening to a lot of music, so that they can come up with their own style, their own sound.
I have some thoughts about learning. I'm not sure if anybody would agree to my 4Is principle, but here goes:
1) Interact
Interact with new learning materials and learn the new stuff.
2) Internalize
Internalize the new stuff and continue to do it until it can be done without thinking.
3) Integration
Integrate the new stuff with other old stuff. Mix them all around and see how they fit together.
4) Improvise
Once the above 3 steps are achieved, natually, improvisation comes into play. Not everybody has the same background, and not everybody knows everything. Hence, the interaction and integration would be different for each musician and therefore the end product of improvisation is different for everybody.
Hence, I think that if a musician were to continuously improve in improvisation, he has to be exposed to new stuff all the time. So, "not listening to others to find their own sound" doesn't make sense to me.
pf
New member
Oh thank you James! 
Yes, this thread is for casual discussion. I would like to invite all of you to read post #11 again to understand why I find the statements of the jazz musician interesting.
Not to argue who's right who's wrong, but to understand how come the jazz musician would put things this way.
Yes, this thread is for casual discussion. I would like to invite all of you to read post #11 again to understand why I find the statements of the jazz musician interesting.
Not to argue who's right who's wrong, but to understand how come the jazz musician would put things this way.
Cheez
Moderator
Shaneypants, you are using "discriminate" as a verb. The author didn't intend for that, and so the interpretation of the word is wider.
Anyway, we all "discriminate" (or "choose", "prefer", whatever one want to call it) the music we listen to unconsciously. We can't in a public place where music is everywhere. But at our own comfort of home or mp3 player or whatever, we tend to bias towards a genre. And that's normal. Being biased (or prefer) one genre automatically puts that person to be biased against (or "not prefer") another genre. He/she may not dislike it or verbalise it that way, but the preference would be to stay away from certain genres. To each their choice. Nothing wrong with that.
But since pf (threadstarter) don't want us to hone in on the word "discriminate" but rather the other part on "training the mind", let's start to migrate over to that area. For me, I don't quite understand the writer. Training the mind...that's pretty big. Not sure in what sense. Hard to comment on just one sentence taken out of context of probably something bigger. Perhaps if we can have some of the things he said before and after that sentence, then we will have the comment in it's full context. That would help.
Anyway, we all "discriminate" (or "choose", "prefer", whatever one want to call it) the music we listen to unconsciously. We can't in a public place where music is everywhere. But at our own comfort of home or mp3 player or whatever, we tend to bias towards a genre. And that's normal. Being biased (or prefer) one genre automatically puts that person to be biased against (or "not prefer") another genre. He/she may not dislike it or verbalise it that way, but the preference would be to stay away from certain genres. To each their choice. Nothing wrong with that.
But since pf (threadstarter) don't want us to hone in on the word "discriminate" but rather the other part on "training the mind", let's start to migrate over to that area. For me, I don't quite understand the writer. Training the mind...that's pretty big. Not sure in what sense. Hard to comment on just one sentence taken out of context of probably something bigger. Perhaps if we can have some of the things he said before and after that sentence, then we will have the comment in it's full context. That would help.
pf
New member
Thank you Cheez!
The quotation is taken from http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents/handbook/11_songlist_for_beginners.pdf
I guess I got to "showhand" now to clear the air. The jazz musician who said this is Jamey Aebersold.
Btw, I was reading his Jazz Handbook (where he provided a beginner song list which contains the quote), which can be found here http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JAZZ&Category_Code=_HANDBOOK
His thoughts about the mind and making music is at http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents/handbook/03_valuable_jazz_info.pdf
Reading that would help to gain his perspective on "training the mind".
Pardon me for not providing more information at first. I was afraid that if I were to provide the quotation right at the beginning, nobody would be inclined to provide me with their perspectives on the statements.
PS:
For those who have not heard about Jamey Aebersold, you can read his bio at http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JAZZ&Category_Code=_JAMEYBIO
The quotation is taken from http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents/handbook/11_songlist_for_beginners.pdf
I guess I got to "showhand" now to clear the air. The jazz musician who said this is Jamey Aebersold.
Btw, I was reading his Jazz Handbook (where he provided a beginner song list which contains the quote), which can be found here http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JAZZ&Category_Code=_HANDBOOK
His thoughts about the mind and making music is at http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents/handbook/03_valuable_jazz_info.pdf
Reading that would help to gain his perspective on "training the mind".
Pardon me for not providing more information at first. I was afraid that if I were to provide the quotation right at the beginning, nobody would be inclined to provide me with their perspectives on the statements.
PS:
For those who have not heard about Jamey Aebersold, you can read his bio at http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JAZZ&Category_Code=_JAMEYBIO
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pianomankris
New member
Gordon McPherson, John Adams, Pierre Boulez, and I was at a masterclass with Danny Elfman once.
And a few other people you probably haven't heard of.
Glad you realise that then. Don't be rude or condescending in your replies to me then.
Maybe if you actually listened you would learn something. Sorry to everyone else here - but I have posted decent info in my posts so far, yet you imply in your responses that I am somehow avoiding theory with regards to music? Like I said, if you think I am in some way lacking, then feel free to challenge my responses.
But don't attack the man. You made it personal.
*sigh*
I thought you would be sensible.matured enough given the apparent fact that you're an older person.
So then.
Let's go at it. I mean, the Powerjam thread is obviously not enough.
Show me.
Show me where I have been rude or condescending towards you. Right. You can't find any? Of course, I'm not talking about this post. Heh.
Let's start off - have I called you names? Say, call you a "kid". Of course, in a condescending manner. Have I ... pulled out a list of reputable teachers (which actually tell nothing about a student... other than he is privileged) and waved it around... obviously to put down others? Have I ... insisted I definitely know my thang because "its my profession"? Oh, and the implication of making the last statement, I think its quite obviously condescending in nature right?
I've been on forums longggggg enough to know just a wee little bit about having decent discussions... and don't worry, I can explain it to you in real life too ya?
EDIT: I realised I never actually mentioned anything about the "good information" you have provided. I'm not brushing off your contributions because I am silent about it.
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Ahhh... this is much much clearer now.
I'm actually a firm believer in training the mind... or the ear... over the whole rock n roll ethos of (well, in Singlish) "just wack".
I always thought that whatever the cultural context you are in, your mind/ears are attuned to that culture's musics. So if you are from say... China... the scales/notes/intervals used in Indian traditional music will sound different. And more often than not, your ears will not be used to it. So if your ears/mind is not attuned to such different music... then the possibility of you actually utilising it becomes lessened. I don't think getting hindered is part of Jazz (actually, all good musicians') ideals ya?
So likewise with all the jazzy scales and modes and what not... I'd never think to do a solo in one of the melodic minor modes. I can't even sing it out properly in the first place. The mind is not trained, not disciplined, not familiar... its not in my improvisation arsenal.
Hi all, since pf personally msg me to join in the discussion, here I am.
for me, when i read this quote, there are a couple of things that comes first into my mind.
1. discriminate in listening
2. training your mind
3. choose music
Now, the point here is not simply listening, or hearing. But it's simply listening intently and the end process of doing this is taking down a lot of ideas, influences, and simply say, internalizing the music you listen to your own music.
Why is this important? Because in jazz, we need to listen to other musician, other player, other improviser to actually grow ourself in our improvisation. By simply listening and playing to the same thing over, let's say 5 year ... it won't change or improve our improvisation much even though we practice like crazy. Because we simply doesn't progress. Our music doesn't take any new information, therefore doesn't digest and doesn't produce any new music (improvisation). So when we're listening to the music, we actually training, as well as learning about music, whether we realize it or not. (the example of this will be the instance when I listen really a lot to Hiromi's music ... whether i do it intentionally or not, my improvisation or solos start to sounds like hiromi.)
and the third point is that choose your music. So it's not about not judging music or an album without listening to it first. But whether, after knowing which one is good, and which one is not ... to listen intently and learn, internalized the music and taking up the influence of good musician.
in a nutshell, "if you listen to crap, you will play crap ... if you listen to gold, you will produce gold"
That's my point of view =) , feel free to criticize or correct me if you think i'm wrong
for me, when i read this quote, there are a couple of things that comes first into my mind.
1. discriminate in listening
2. training your mind
3. choose music
Now, the point here is not simply listening, or hearing. But it's simply listening intently and the end process of doing this is taking down a lot of ideas, influences, and simply say, internalizing the music you listen to your own music.
Why is this important? Because in jazz, we need to listen to other musician, other player, other improviser to actually grow ourself in our improvisation. By simply listening and playing to the same thing over, let's say 5 year ... it won't change or improve our improvisation much even though we practice like crazy. Because we simply doesn't progress. Our music doesn't take any new information, therefore doesn't digest and doesn't produce any new music (improvisation). So when we're listening to the music, we actually training, as well as learning about music, whether we realize it or not. (the example of this will be the instance when I listen really a lot to Hiromi's music ... whether i do it intentionally or not, my improvisation or solos start to sounds like hiromi.)
and the third point is that choose your music. So it's not about not judging music or an album without listening to it first. But whether, after knowing which one is good, and which one is not ... to listen intently and learn, internalized the music and taking up the influence of good musician.
in a nutshell, "if you listen to crap, you will play crap ... if you listen to gold, you will produce gold"
That's my point of view =) , feel free to criticize or correct me if you think i'm wrong