Nguyen Tuong Van case heats up.

well said thor. i concur.

timex:
while there is a certain degree of politics involved, i'd say its more about capital punishment, and whether or not its a justifiable/moral means of sentencing. also, about whether singapore has the legal right to subject the australian to our local laws.

shert:
you're right. the reasons he did it aren't important in proving whether or not he is guilty. but the reasons sometime warrant the type of punishment metted out. for instance, stealing could get someone in excess of 7 years in jail; but u would'nt put a 16 year old in jail for stealing a candy bar. the punishment must be justified.

the crux of this discussion is this
1. Does singapore have the legal right to apply our laws on him
2. Is capital punishment a moral, justifiable means of punishment?
3. Even if it IS a justifiable mean (which i disagree), does his crime warrant such a sentance?
4. Will capital punishment prevent futher smuggling, their rings and the cartel?

jumbo i agree.
 
+1 to jumbofret.

They should go after the main orchestrators of the drug problem.

Although I still believe Nguyen should either hang, or face life imprisonment for his actions.
 
this brings us back to the qn.

do you fault the socio-political background of the victim or do you fault the victim himself ?

it works bothways.

you cant simply say its just the victim's fault . he made a mistake. punish him for that.

neither can you completly ignore the fact, that he was driven to commit what he had to do due to the socio-political system failing him.

if every trafficker had a sob story like our nyugen friend here, would that qualify every trafficker for clemency ? the law needs to be upheld.

yet similarly the law cannot have a strict unbending face. its inhumane to completly ignore the context of the trafficker and to sentence him to death for something he was forced to commit.

justice without mercy is like a sword at the hands of a berserk wielder. it can kill anybody, irregardless of who or what that person is.

on the other hand , if you are lenient to him , it isnt fair to the hundreds of people who have been executed for drug trafficking.

its a deadly paradox. my belief is that justice should be tempered with mercy, given his context , the singapore government should extradict him to australia and impose a death sentence in lieu of his presence. that way , if he ever re enters singapore again , he'ld be subjected to the death penalty, and , satisfy the baying australian demand for mercy.

remember, the Australian senator who served as spokesman and remarked that singapore's response was to tell [them] to go "jump in the lake" is a likely candidate to be a future prime minister of australia. he is one of Australia's rising political stars . this development alone may have a lasting impact on singaporean-australian relations, something whose value cannot be estimated in the short , medium and long term.

singpore is treading a fine line where she cannot afford to lose her balance in any direction.
 
Aha. You see, until there is CONCRETE evidence to prove that the circumstances of Nguyen's FORCED him into drug smuggling for money, I DO NOT believe that he had no alternative, legal, avenues of earning an income.

We cannot say for sure right now that he was FORCED by his "socio-political background" into employing illicit means of making money.

And as you mentioned, we have to be fair to every drug trafficker who's been hung in the past, or, perhaps, those to come in the present.

Perhaps, stars, you are right, they should extradict him to Australia and then pass a death sentence in lieu of his prescence (I wouldn't have thought of that). Maybe that would solve this issue, and both parties walk away happy.
 
with all the welfare benefits they have over at australia, its rather surprising to hear that someone is living in extreme poverty, perhaps, since he was an immigrant he wasnt entitled to the welfare benefits, or even treated as a 2nd class citizen. If not, he wouldnt have resort to such desperate means.
I find it ironic now that, the Australians seemed to show so much concern for him, its makes me wonder, if they're truly sincere, or they're just stroking their egos. Not that i dislike the australians, there are always nice people and nasty people in every country

Australia wouldnt want to take any economic actions on to Singapore, because it'll hurt them more than it'll hurt us, Australia needs Singapore to access to other South east asian markets, or even China.

clearly there is no right and wrong in this case, pardoning him the death sentence maybe right from Amnesty International's POV, but it may not be so when you look at it from angle of protecting our sovereignty and fighting crime.There will be consequences for either decisions. But since it happened within our boundaries, we do what is right from our point of view.
 
To Silencer

If he brought drugs onto Singapore soil, then yes singapore has the legal right to prosecute. It would be different if say the offender was caught with drug while in the Oz embassy in SG, which is still techincally Oz territory.

As for the part about capital punishment, I personally dont think that it fits the consequence for this sort of crime.This is up to the judiciary to review.

But that being said, the laws exist for various reasons. The law might change in the future but until the it does, everyone is expected to abide by the existing code.
 
I can safely say that am I fully aware of the fact that he needed the money to foot his brother's legal bill. That still, in my opinion, DOES NOT justify the fact that he carried the drugs for money.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

As for the comparison of the legalisation of bar-top dancing to this case. Is anyone going to be killed? Are lives gonna be wrecked by substance addiction?
Click to expand...

Please don't interpret my arguments as siding Nguyen. :p I never meant to. Like I said, I'm still undecided on my stand.

My argument is that laws can be changed, and I don't agree with your reasoning on policy-making. In fact, I'm not even making a stand on whether Nguyen should be hanged.

My point is that some of the posts here are rather lopsided, and some of the comments are not exactly true. The law can be changed, and we don't have to live life strictly to what the law is. That is what this discussion is about really: Should the law be amended in view of Nguyen's case?

I understand that Nguyen is due for capital punishment -due to procedure-, ie whatever that's written in black and white and not left to the discretion of the judge in this case.



SherT, I hope you can read what I'm talking about... your reply refers to the decision of Nguyen's life, while I'm really referring to the correctness of the postings. No offence intended nor taken. :wink:
 
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17323754%5E2702,00.html

From this article, it says that:

Khoa, Van's twin brother, is a former addict.
Van had been lured by a Sydney-based drug syndicate into acting as a drug mule (396 grams of heroin, remember) to repay $25,000 in debts accrued by his twin brother.

" "This event that's about to happen is being done to him by the Singaporean Government, not by his brother," he (lawyer Lex Lasry QC) said. "So I don't want people to be loading up Khoa with a whole lot of guilt that he doesn't deserve. The Singaporean Government is committing a gross breach of international human rights laws, not Khoa." "

Did you know that Khoa is a former addict? It does reflect on how he leads his life. Shady guy... These twin bros are buku dinky dau!

Like I said before, no point in executing Van. Hit the syndicates, drug lords and hustlers. The mule is just a small fry in the narcotics industry.
 
I was reading (20nov)Sunday's article in The New Paper. Some journalist's thoughts on the matter.

"If Nguyen had committed his crime in Australia, a story like his could have led to a reduced sentence from a liberal judge. But as every Singaporean knows, it's a very different story in the Republic. We understand the reasons Singapore cannot commute Nguyen's sentence no matter how much they may want to. It's become the classic battle between making exceptions and enforcing the law. Singapore cannot afford to ignore the drug menace and the danger of becoming a drug transit hub. It also cannot have double standards. But Aussies just can't understand why we can't make an exception in this case.

Australians tend to mete out justice by emotion...Singapore too makes allowances for mitigating circumstance, but when it comes to drugs, you'd have a better chance of nudging the Rock of Gibraltar.....

But---I know this sounds cold-hearted---Nguyen knew the risks.

The real tragedy of this to me is that Nguyen didn't think he had any other option, any other route of help.

Was there nobody---no friends, no church or the police---that he could have turned to? Or was he ashamed?

I only hope it wasn't the Asian pre-ocupation of saving face that led this man down this path of ruin and early death."

Well, I was just thinking. If Singapore did make this an exception, are we sending out a message that as long as you have a sob story, you can have a lighter sentence in dealing with drugs in Singapore? And if people have that mindset, the drug syndicates would start searching to hire for people with such pitiful stories to be their drug traffickers with the promise that "you have a sad life, you'll escape death for sure!" I think the government's gonna have an even harder time handling the situation then.

So IMHO, yeah, it's sad but sometimes, our minds have to overrule our emotions.
 
What if this guy would hae gone to AI or the Auzzie govt and tell them "look, I need money desperately for my brother's legal fees and if you cannot help me, I will go carry drugs in transit through Singapore. If I get caught them I'll be subject to a death penalty that you guys are deadly against. What do you think will be the answer he gets?
 
hifi_killer said:
I find it ironic now that, the Australians seemed to show so much concern for him, its makes me wonder, if they're truly sincere, or they're just stroking their egos. Not that i dislike the australians, there are always nice people and nasty people in every country
Click to expand...

I don't think they are really that concerned about him. It's more like, "he's our guy, let us handle it". Some countries are just more possesive over their belongings. Let's give an analogy.

This kid goes to school and sells porno. Teacher canes him in front of the whole school. Some parents would go "Yeah ok, I guess that's the best for him" and some would go "Let me bring him home, I'll beat the crap out of him myself."

Even if Australia did agree to letting him be punished by our rules, it would seem weak of them if they simply allow us to do with him as we please without kicking up a fuss. It's just the way of society.

Option A
We make a stand, they make a stand, then we kill the dude. This way we both seem like strong countries who can make a stand.

Option B
We make a stand, they make a stand, we give them the dude. Then Singapore would seem weak.

Option C
We make a stand, they don't say anything. Then Australia would seem weak.

Obviously Option A is the best. And has been since the beginning of any semblence of society. It's a really silly game of face saving, but one that has to be played.





Now, about our laws. Singapore has always been more of "Guilty until proven innocent" as compared to America's "Innocent until proven guilty". As a very big generalisation,
In Singapore: All crooks go to jail, but some innocents do to.
In America: No innocent will go to jail, but some crooks do.

Note that "innocent" is relative. Some Laws say if you are suffering from a mental illness then you cannot be guilty. Some otherwise.

Some people like these blanket laws, some don't. My friend emigrated precisely cos he doesn't. I'm staying here because I do. True, sometimes there are sad cases where you feel the person being punished does not deserve that harsh a punishment, but IT KEEPS CROOKS OFF THE STREETS. Simply by detterence by example. It's a tradeoff. If Singapore starts getting wimpy and starts judging by emotions (Ooo he was overcome by anger, he did not know what he was doing, we'll give him a lesser sentence) then we'll see more crimes being committed. It's a balancing game. As for now I'm relatively happy with most of our laws.
 
pepper-: If I were a drug lord, I would use dolphins or migratory birds to transport drugs! Cool, eh? Training them would be hard though...

HeartRockSingapore: The Aussie govt won't even answer. They don't entertain such people.

Go there as a tourist, they will treat you very well. Stay there as a resident/citizen and it's a different story. It happens everywhere in the world. Favouritism.

Let me give you guys an analogy of the drug business.
It's like fire. Fire needs 3 components: Oxygen, Flammable substance and Ignition.

For the drugs industry: Supply, Intermediary (transport, dealers etc), and Demand.

How would you prevent a fire? Ignition is by chance or on purpose, but if you have the 2 other elements, fire will start. But if you don't have a flammable substance or oxygen, no matter how much sparks are flying around, NO FIRE!

How to clamp down on the drugs industry?
You don't spank or execute the mule or dealers. He is just an intermediary.
You take down the Supply and Demand, dude!
 
Pray for him.
Anyway,this death sentenced send a strong message to ppls out there that Singapore is a clean country.No horsing ard.
 
thor666 said:
SherT, I hope you can read what I'm talking about... your reply refers to the decision of Nguyen's life, while I'm really referring to the correctness of the postings. No offence intended nor taken. :wink:
Click to expand...

None intended or taken either.

"This event that's about to happen is being done to him by the Singaporean Government, not by his brother," he (lawyer Lex Lasry QC) said. "So I don't want people to be loading up Khoa with a whole lot of guilt that he doesn't deserve. The Singaporean Government is committing a gross breach of international human rights laws, not Khoa."

Is it just me, or did anyone else find that grossly ignorant and disgusting?
 
seriously i think the real crux of the issue, lies within Australia, not Singapore. Our laws are perfectly fine, there worse ones around us, Syariah laws still exists in many muslim communities, their laws deserve more attention than us.

Its their drug addict, its their drug syndicates, their lax laws.it seems to me that the Australian govt are proclaiming that they are absolutely faultless, we are entirely, the cause of this problem. The last time i went to australia, i find it so damn easy to get marijuana on the street!!(of course i didnt get it) They're just blaming our laws, trying to make it our problem now, diverting attention from the REAL problem. That imo, is the REAL crux of the cruxes of issues.
 
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