Medicine for the local original market????

[MadWerewolfBoy]

oot: oh talking about that fun pack song. i think the main issue was actually the song sucking, they govt and media just wanted to shift the attention and distract us with the copyright thingy to save some face.

ever wondered how that lame song got the green light? to be played and shown on national TV for locals and foreigners? lest we forget how the song sounds, here's it in HD, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkg4sct0-Js&NR=1&hd=1

blast it loud and see if you can tahan till the end. even mr brown, who does this for fun, could do a parody that's 10 times better.

i don't know about you guys, but since we're on this topic, don't you feel that these so called "talents" are siphoning the much needed money from where ever it should be going? so much money is being wasted on such retardedness.

 

[carboxymoron]

Carboxymoron: I am not talking about features. I am talking about reviews. The problem is that we have all these people getting featured but they don’t appear on reviews.

Actually since everyone being shameless, I just wrote a review of Mr Roland's pirate ship CD for one of the publications I mentioned, will be in print for next month. Hopefully my writing doesn't disappoint you like that one admittedly bad example of a CNA article on WGB.

At the end of the day, I think Mr Calvin Nam is well-intentioned, but if you continue to expect good things to happen because it is right or ethical or for equality with other countries or for government to save face, you will be a disappointed and angry man who writes in forums with a lot of "??" and "!!". Me, I'll just continue to work my ass off for what I like, and fame and fortune can shove it.

 

[Screamz]

Free music. Make music free and let it be free. Its the only way to be.

 

[RolandLim]

^ er no ? cos it takes a shit load of effort to make great music with awesome production.

sure there's a lot of people making good music out there giving it out for free...but man there's also way too much free crap out there

 

[Li Xiao'an]

There probably just needs to be more education about the music business. Music is not necessarily an art. It is a craft.

Some people choose to use it as their medium to create art.

We should not confuse artisan with artist. A professional musician (versus amateur) is no different from a chef or someone else in an artisan field - trained and practiced in the CRAFT of creating things for the enjoyment of others. See how well a restaurant will do if the chef makes things only to his taste.

This is not to say that educated musicians are always successful, or that untrained musicians like Roland are not successful. FAR FROM IT. Some people don't need an education. Not all chefs are trained in school either, but lots of hard work, business savvy and passion can be enough to make you a professional with standards equalling or surpassing trained people.

So enough of this arsing around with free music. A great deal of investment goes into making good music with good production, and a great number of people are involved-

Songwriter
Arranger
Music Director
Musicians
Producer
Assistants
Mastering
Studio Time
Marketing (i.e getting the song played by EVERY DAMN RADIO STATION when it's released)

MUSIC SHOULD NEVER BE FREE

 

[RolandLim]

Xiao an i have grade 5 in ABRSM ok !

don't play play.

i have training

 

[Li Xiao'an]

I take it back.

When you having piano concert? I go see.

 

[parablue74]

Oops...I Grade 0 ABRSM..

 

[centralcatchment]

I’ll have to admit. I’ve heard of West Grand Boulevard before, and I didn’t like the name. I haven’t heard the music closely and I say nothing at all about the music. I was laying into them because I didn’t like the name. Then I saw the media coverage of them and I flipped. I'll be looking forward to reading the IEHAC review. I know that Singaporean albums are reviewed, but curiously, not in Juice, probably not in I-S either.

Roland Lim:
Wow you are making things difficult for me. You want me to critique your band to your face. I’ll probably get a few things wrong but then so much the better for you: you see the kinds of misconceptions people have. And of course I will only speak for myself.

I didn’t know what cutlass is. I had to look it up the dictionary. As a rule, I don’t like long and smart alecky band names, although it could be a trend with the younger kids. And you will know us by the trail of the dead, Of Montreal, Explosions in the Sky, We are Scientists, The good the Bad and the Queen, Queens of the Stone Age. But I have to admit that they do get peoples’ attention.

I see that there are 2 Electrico members. So is that a side project, it will be perceived as a side project of Electrico. Sorry, but it did take Damon Albarn a pretty damn long time to get rid of that “the guy from Blur” mental image for me.

The nautical theme is cool. At least there’s a story there. Unfortunately maritime is not as compelling a source of stories as it was 100 years ago.

The pirate ship looks cool. You guys have taken effort with the packaging. The fold out pirate ship. It doesn’t look cheap and tacky like the WGB one. But until I hear the music I won’t know if it has any deeper significance. Normally when you talk about sailors, it’s associated with rowdiness, drunkenness, storms at sea. And the spirit of pioneering and discovery. I don’t know if I sound like an ass for saying this but these things have to be there in your music. The downside I can think about for your cover, first I don’t know if you are paying tribute to people who steal your music. Second, it looks like the cover of a video game.

Fancy packaging is creative, but many times, an arresting image would be as effective as out of the box packaging. I still remember Oddfellow’s “Teenage Head”, the boy in false colours. “ghostfather”, the haunting picture of a giant eye. Those covers don’t look very professional but they are good covers.

As with WGB, it reminds me of a cover which is somewhat similar:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/HMS-Fable-Shack/dp/B00000JP6X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310632724&sr=8-1

The mental template is already there. When I heard that this is “Electrico members noodling around with experimental stuff” my first thought was “file under Godspeed You Black Emperor”. I suppose the mental image in my mind is already postrock. Then we have black with neat clean lines (“Mogwai Young Team”), mysterious religious symbols (“lift your skinny fists”), or mysterious looking antenna (“F# A#”). The point is that postrock is traditionally somewhat more ethereal, about the sky, about mysterious spirits, about the cosmos. Explosions in the SKY. Lift your skinny fists up to HEAVEN. Heavy orchestra-ey stuff. Universes and strings. It might fit pirate ships but I don’t know.

A side note about postrock. A lot of the stuff is about cosmology, exploding nebula, stars, explosions, a general abstract notion of beauty. Look at the stars, look how they shine for you… they were all yellow. Etc etc.

Instrumental music is not easy to fit to images. Actually that’s why many jazz CDs all come with essays, because they know all the audiences are eggheads. Maybe that’s why you need a big name to make you loom larger in the consciousness?

OK, I was intending to give the music a listen and I’ll do that later and then see if the music does indeed suit the cover.

 

[Screamz]

ok.........

 

[Li Xiao'an]

I’l

Instrumental music is not easy to fit to images. Actually that’s why many jazz CDs all come with essays, because they know all the audiences are eggheads. Maybe that’s why you need a big name to make you loom larger in the consciousness?

I find this extremely amusing. Not discounting your opinion or anything, but just imagine a gong and a shakuhachi and the sound they make together, and tell me an image doesn't fill your imagination. While I must qualify that music(any sort) does not necessarily HAVE to conjure images (they could bring to mind emotion or primal desire for instance), I would also like to make a few things clear.

Films, essentially moving images, are brought to life with music most often devoid of vocals. I don't need to cite examples here because you can probably think of 10 right now.

Dvorak's "From The New World", Ravel's "Daphnis and Chloe", Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun", Tchaikovsky's "Swan Lake", Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf", Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"

- These are all fine examples of works that have endured and continue to inspire the hearts of young and old who listen to them or watch the actual ballets, and are very very clear in the images they produce. This clearly shows that it is not that instrumental music is "not easy to fit to images".

---

Regarding the quality of the reviews that you were lamenting in your earlier post, I just have to say, with as little offense as possible, that for a music reviewer, I find the terms "Orchestra-ey"(what do you mean?), "Mysterious religious symbols (without a follow up explanation)" and the fact that you do not know what a cutlass is - hardly acceptable for someone who demands quality from his contemporaries, because it reflects vagueness of opinion and makes you appear uninformed.

I think your intentions are right but if you really believe strongly that there should be a greater attention to quality in the points you mentioned in both your posts in this thread, you have to step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is, or the issues you raise will remain unsupported and nothing will ever change.


Edit: All people who listen to jazz are eggheads? ...seriously, did you actually mean what you said?

 

[centralcatchment]

Yeh, I read what you said for a while and I had my doubts. Then again I remember. Suppose you had a song, like with lyrics. Then the images come from the words. The image is there already. Then you mentioned a lot of titles, I think that was my point. If the music could speak for itself, why slap on a title on top of it? And the title had to be especially evocative. "Peter and the Wolf", "Afternoon of a Faun", whatever. I think Paul McCartney wrote a song called "Scrambled Eggs" and he couldn't find a proper title for it until he settled on "Yesterday". Actually it's not that the music can't evoke images, but everybody will come up with a different image. Then you need an imaginative title to fix a certain image in everybody's head.

I can give you 9 examples of instrumentals that don't have titles. Beethoven's 1st symphony, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th. OK, sometimes 3 is "Eroica" and 9 is "Chorale". Songs with words almost always have titles. But I suppose I really meant "instrumental music is harder to fit into images than songs with words".

But something else I think is true about instrumental music is: if you don't have a singer, you don't have a human face. The frontman is almost always the singer. Take for example the Who. Daltrey is always standing in front, Townsend, even though he wrote the music and the lyrics, always at the back. (Of course he is also overshadowed by the biggest attention whore in music, a few feet away, Keith Moon.) You have a singer, that puts a human face to the music. Even for bands where the ppl share the vocal duties (ie Sonic Youth). When I think about Mogwai, I don't think of a human face. When I was watching a Tortoise concert, I was thinking, "this is very strange. Who do I watch?"

Yes, I really said that ppl who listen to jazz are eggheads. I meant real jazz, jazz police, Charlie Parker, serious jazz. Not soft easy listening vocal jazz. Then again consider that a.) I was tongue in cheek, and b.) I am one of those eggheads.

Like I said in my post, I was giving feedback on the packaging, not reviewing the music. It's not meant to be an informed opinion, and it should not be one because I'm trying to reflect what the man in the street thinks. When I said I don't know what a cutlass is, I mean "from the marketing standpoint we have a small problem".

When I criticised the coverage of WGB, my point was not exactly that the journalism was sloppy. My standpoint is "how well marketed is the music" and my conclusion was "not very well". I was trying to argue that these articles do not advance the cause of local music.

 

[carboxymoron]

I think your perspective only highlights how limited each of our individual experiences are, no matter how much we think we know. As a progressive and post-rock fan I know my favourite bands by sight and by name. At Tortoise's Mosaic gig this year I thoroughly enjoyed watching them, knowing who plays what parts. On the other hand I can hardly name the frontman of any band that can be considered famous in the mainstream. I can't remember lyrics to any top 40's in recent years (but then again, I don't listen to the radio at all). Yet I know the titles of my favourite Hammock songs by the starting seconds of swelling ambient noise (though they might all sound the same to someone else).

Of course, I am not trying to reflect what the man in the street thinks because there're enough of them as it is; I rather think for myself. I just find the whole argument rather contrived -- by equating success with popularity among the general undiscerning public, independent local music is by definition doomed to fail. Yet I consider some of the bands in this thread and many others not mentioned to be highly successful, albeit on varying scales.

In short, let me condense this thread into this paradoxical statement: local music is popular to those who are fans of local music. While many people, including Mr Calvin Nam and yourself are concerned with changing the former to suit everyone, some of us make the rather less stressful choice of concerning ourselves only with the latter.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

well said well said the above

plus anyone who mentioned hammock, automatically get plus 1!

 

[Li Xiao'an]

1. Actually it's not that the music can't evoke images, but everybody will come up with a different image. Then you need an imaginative title to fix a certain image in everybody's head.



2. Songs with words almost always have titles. But I suppose I really meant "instrumental music is harder to fit into images than songs with words".



3. When I was watching a Tortoise concert, I was thinking, "this is very strange. Who do I watch?"



4. Yes, I really said that ppl who listen to jazz are eggheads. I meant real jazz, jazz police, Charlie Parker, serious jazz. Not soft easy listening vocal jazz. Then again consider that a.) I was tongue in cheek, and b.) I am one of those eggheads.



5. When I said I don't know what a cutlass is, I mean "from the marketing standpoint we have a small problem".



6. When I criticised the coverage of WGB, my point was not exactly that the journalism was sloppy. My standpoint is "how well marketed is the music" and my conclusion was "not very well". I was trying to argue that these articles do not advance the cause of local music.

1. Music is not one dimensional, the title can serve as a guide, but everyone's experience of it is unique and personal. You don't "need" anything to "fix" anything in someone's head, because that is not the point. It is about perspective. Different sonorities and melodic shapes will evoke different ideas in different people because their musical experiences up to that point will have caused them to perceive music in a different way. Hence the issue of preference, or differences in interpretation.

2. I suppose it was my mistake to not clarify this first. If we are talking about "songs" then we are talking about vocal music. A symphony is not a song, a film score is not a song, a ballet is not a song. Even an opera is not a song. You could argue that part of it is made up of individual arias that may individually be loosely called songs. So yes, I agree that "songs" have words, because that is a necessary characteristic. Criticize me for being pedantic, but I think it's important that these terms are not used loosely, especially in a music review or in a discussion about music.

3. Just listen to the music? Enjoy the energy? Watch the whole band for a change? There isn't only one way to enjoy a concert, and things are modernizing, so open your mind.

4. I know what you mean. However, jazz and all other music originating from west african and slave music (i.e. Blues, Gospel, R&B, Neo Soul) all started out as vocal music. Horn articulations are the way they are in the jazz idiom because they first imitated vocal techniques. In the beginning, Jazz was also dance music. It wasn't till the 1930-1940 period that jazz started become a "proper" style of music, after that the "bebop" and "post bebop" period started making things inaccessible for ordinary listeners (hence its evolution into "egghead" music)

5. I really don't know what to say.

6. Do you mean that the reviews weren't positive enough? If they were indifferent (as they seem to have been made out), or negative, then they'd push back the cause of local music? The reviews are not there to "market" the band. If the band inspires a crap review, so be it. Marketing is the sole responsibility of the artist, unless they hire somebody to do it for them.


-----



Regarding this thread - have you ever seen a difficult child who won't eat his/her vegetables or medicine? Having a house made of friggin vegetables isn't going to convince him/her to change his/her mind.

Ever thought of preparing the vegetables with something they do like so they can get used to the taste? After they overcome that, they may be ready to start eating it on its own or in other forms.

If there is REAL interest to change the way Singaporeans think, there has to be a greater understanding of market demands, and acceptance of original music will happen slowly. Anything else and you're just banging your head on the wall. I personally think that if you want to make music your life, and you're not interested in writing FOR your fans, you may encounter some forgiving people overseas, but you're generally going to find it hard to make a living.

 

[centralcatchment]

OK, since you're here, you did mention a few blogs about Singapore music. Care to list them? Don't worry, I'm not going to heckle the writers.

I am not unfamiliar with the notion of "success". I also know that there is very little correlation between artistic and commercial success. But there is one thing that popularity does that "success" does not. It puts food on the table. I'm not implying that Tortoise and Mogwai suck, because I'm a fan of those bands. And Brian Eno too. But instrumentals are more faceless, and that's that. I'm trying to remember the name of the last instrumental that hit the Top 10.

I'm discussing marketing for now and marketing has little to do with pushing your stuff to people who were going to buy them anyway.

And there are other advantages to building up a local music scene:
1. Ppl get tired of "success". It's hard to know that you have a good product, and it's not getting heard, not getting to people. You need to feed off the energy of your audience.
2. You need to feed off the energy of your fellow bands. You need to bounce ideas off each other.
3. If and when we put Singapore on the map, we'll get a bigger fanbase. Because there's no way - New York bands don't only have New York audiences, Nashville bands don't only have Nashville audiences. And by the way do you find it a little annoying that pitchfork reviews all kinds of shit and none of it is Singaporean?
4. Only by having a scene do we have a good way of separating the wheat from the chaff. So even if it's about local audiences, we make things easy for them, you know who the stars are.

The scene is: musicians, audience, writers. Basically the musicians and the audience deserve each other in the end. People always forget the last one, but writers / journalism is so so important. What's a scene without the hype?

And you're right. Sticking with local is more realistic, but you know, for the dreamers, I hope that their dreams assume a more concrete form.

 

[carboxymoron]

But instrumentals are more faceless, and that's that. I'm trying to remember the name of the last instrumental that hit the Top 10.

No offence, but this illustrates perfectly my point about how pointless this discussion is. If your definition of memorable (or whatever the opposite of faceless is) is being in the Top 10/Top 40, then of course, instrumental music (and also progressive music, completely independent music, and local music) will always be faceless.

I don't want to be flogging a dead horse so I will take my leave here.

Anyway, with regards to music blogs by Singaporeans (not necessarily blogs about Singaporean music), I'm Waking Up To is surely world class in writing, variety, and reach. Other lesser blogs I like are Walk On Music (more focused on current gigs) and We Talk Music (still quite in its infancy).

 

[centralcatchment]

Xiaoán:
Nothing much for me to say. Most of those things are right. However the way that this conversation has been going here, is that I have been talking about how XXX or YYY music is not very marketable and does not have mass appeal, and you've been telling me that if I open my ears a little, I would learnt to appreciate it more. So there's a bit of a disconnect.

My criticism of the coverage of WGB – well it doesn’t do the thing that music journalism ought to do. So this is a feature, or an interview. Probably the purpose is not to hype the band. So this is not about positive review or negative review. This is about whether the band has a personality that it can project out to people and make people interested. I don’t see that. I point 1 finger at the band for not hyping themselves up, I point another finger at the journalist for writing a boring article. If you make coverage of local bands this boring, by extension, the Singapore scene is boring.

Reviewers are supposed to write honestly about the merits of the music, even though their perspective is a limited one. And as we know from the Fun Pack Song, Ris Low and Rebecca Black, a really really bad review can be a very very good thing from the standpoint of hype. What we need from reviews, they need to be trustworthy enough. They need to communicate clearly what music to watch out for, because you are doing the local scene a favour when you concentrate peoples’ attention on the best stuff that’s out there. Even though reviews are never 100% accurate. And as a bonus, a good and really perceptive review can point out aspects of the music that the casual listener may have missed out. They can stimulate thinking, make both musicians and audiences think harder about content.

It’s true that the musicians should be mindful of their audiences. But sometimes I think that musicians should be leaders rather than followers. I mean, who are the music experts? It goes back to what I said earlier, the audience and the musicians deserve each other. If you have an audience that demands mediocrity, safe choices, same old shit, then they will get mediocrity. In spite of everything else I said about the importance of hyping your music, if you want to make totally left field stuff that’s groundbreaking, original and nobody wants to hear it, it’s a good thing. I can sympathise with the point of view that dumbing down to your audience when you could be changing the world of music is a waste of time.

And let me remind ppl about the reason why I got talking about marketing in the first place: some guy asked me how's the packaging on his CD. I don't know if there's any way to interpret that question other than "how successful is my marketing?"

 

[daryle]

I think national pride also plays a part if you specifically want to see Singaporean musicians become commercially successful worldwide.

If half the population is ashamed of the country for various reasons (i.e ashamed of the government, ashamed of the people for blaming the government for everything, or just ashamed of the whole country), then we might as well forget about marketing ourselves as singaporeans and instead market ourselves as either Chinese, Asians, or just simply as human beings.

 

[centralcatchment]

But surely you don't expect Singaporeans to change just like that.