madmonkeykungfu - good for the local scene or not?

[soft]

carebears should die. Madmonkeykungfu is a collective of individuals who think the local scene should open their eyes and ears rather than carebear whoring. Sorry we rather be hard.

I decided to start this discussion to outline what are the advantage and disadvantage of madmonkeykungfu's motto.

In some of the posts, madmonkeykungfu suggest that we must scrutinise in order for the local musicians to improve.

I think this is an important issue for SOFT members to feedback on and also what are the repercussion this kind of hard handling will cause.

 

[nocturnus]

I don't understand. Do these madmankeykungfu people have something against carebears? :?

 

[david54]

Agree with the collective.

In the corporate world it's called 'Quality Control'.

We do not tolerate companies putting out inferior products or services. It's only logical to apply this mindset to local music, which we hope one day to be a commodity, an industry.

People who like to use the 'all bands deserve a chance' motto: you are wrong.
Not all bands deserve a chance! In fact a majority do not, for various and diverse reasons.

Simply put, if you do not have a product worth putting out, don't! For you risk the repercussions from an unsympathetic public.

 

[nocturnus]

So what are these collective are planning to do then? Are there any form of actions? Let's hear them out.

 

[azlan]

it depends on the character of a person..... if it is a strong character, and you critisize, he will be angry and want to show you he/she can do it just to prove you wrong.....

but if it is a weak character, getting such harsh comments would demoralize him/her and he/she may want to discontinue whatever he/she set out to do....

so i guess it really depends on weather the 'commentee' is introvert or extrovert and if the 'commenter' is.......

 

[madmonkeykungfu]

madmonkeykungfu is a collective voice, and honestly if we are not concerned about local music we would have shrugged local music off like the rest.

actually the real issue with SOFT is not about the scrutinising of bands (We do need people who do that), but the unhealthy balance. Too many carebears. Too little honest comments. And the situation now is when someone voice out an alternative opinion (an opinion need not be "right"), the moderator is too quick and ganjiong about it.

Live in the real world, not your imaginary utopian forum. Bands need to learn to face real comments from real people. So bands can know what they can (if they want) change if they wants to convert a certain group of people into their consumer groups.

As for bands who overindulge (which can be a good thing imo), this wouldn't be an issue at all because they couldn't care less what anyone else apart from their own opinions.

Yeah this is too short, because I'm late for my appointment. Later then.

 

[azlyjacaz]

I feel the collective is a saviour to Singapore's already ailing music industry.

How do you expect a band to improve if everyone keeps giving good comments even if the band really has bad points?

If they keep receiving good points, they won't know of their mistakes thus not having the motivation to correct what mistakes they have. It's because of this the music will remain stagnant.

And by the way, giving bad points doesn't mean dissing the band. That's one stereotypical mindset most ppl have nowadays.

 

[ShredCow]

Just drop by the OM section.. Look at how SOFTies comment on OMs.

"Awesome man!"

"Great playing!"

"*insert name* power la!"

Who actually critiques?

You can post substandard playing and you STILL get the same comments?


Most ppl are either:
a) Don't care, don't put in effort
b) Play safe, don't "provoke"
c) Really really thought it was so

And this reflects on how madmonkeykunfu's motto will fare in an environment like SOFT, which can reflect the Singapore attitude to music overall.

Granted, SOFT has a larger base of newbies and younger people, hence we can't base Singapore's stand but... you look at what the newbies post. Look at kind of playing gets the praises.

Again, you can post substandard playing and you STILL get the same awesome comments?

I totally agree that when it comes to music, once you understand what the musician is trying to achieve, one must be hard on citing improvements or critisim or compliments.

Like what David54 said, you risk the repercussions from an unsympathetic public. You sell a band, their substandard music is AWESOME, POWER LA, GREAT!, only for them to go out and get crushed by the public in terms of sales and concert attendance.

However. Some people can't take critique at all. To that, I say, too bad. Really.

If you as the musician, whose goal in life is to improve and play the best music you can make, then you must have an open ear, to a certan extent, no compromise on your style (unless your style is.. well, lacking).

In a nutshell, if we adhere to Madmonkeykunfu's motto, we will prune a lot of poor-substandard music off and the good/deserving music will be able to breath better and get more exposure. But, we risk stifling out new, raw talents who will be afraid to stand up despite their potential, and we lose them for good. Its a give and take, see how see who thing.

In anycase, I see madmonkeykungfu as a rebel force in SOFT. His supporters use sarcasm and strong criticism on the way SOFT is run, rather than voicing it in a proper manner. Intolerant and impatient they are...

 

[azlan]

i agree..... but its also the way that the message gets conveyed across...... say it in a diplomatic manner and i'm sure than bands will actually take heed and listen rather than brood over it....

 

[ShredCow]

And by the way, giving bad points doesn't mean dissing the band. That's one stereotypical mindset most ppl have nowadays.

No. If you wanna give such comments you have to play better than the critisized.

Example:
"I think you can improve on your phrasing and try to be a little more creative, that shred run from 0:40 to 3:23 really does little to help the song"

"Oh yeah? I like to see YOU try that!"

Bloody stupid thinking if you ask me.

Strong words because this is THE mindset of the locals and many around.

 

[ShredCow]

actually the real issue with SOFT is not about the scrutinising of bands (We do need people who do that), but the unhealthy balance. Too many carebears. Too little honest comments. And the situation now is when someone voice out an alternative opinion (an opinion need not be "right"), the moderator is too quick and ganjiong about it.

SOFT is still a forum for all music lovers. I don't see an issue with the moderation. I see an issue with the comments, the lack of honest comments.

IMHO, the main thing to worry about is the comments.

 

[jeremyrozario]

so can i post my honest comments about ronin?

 

[ShredCow]

Everyone can jeremy, but its got to be tastefully done.. and the response must be appropriate.

Its takes 2 to clap here... you critique very harshly, even rudely, you are at fault. The critisized fight back, spewing insults at you, they are at fault. Then from there, everything degenerates into a nice big flame war, which IMO, Soft (James) should just delete the thread.

 

[ChanMin]

soft is great!.

without soft... alot of things in the singapore music scene wont have even been possible.

i agree with mad monkey kung fu in the sense that being too nice and praising blindly has a negative impact.

But i personally wouldnt critique some ones playing unless i hear a genuine problem...
most of the time its good stuff in the OM sections
we may not be totally bowled over by the tracks in there at times, but some healthy words of encouragement is always a good thing.

picking up the courage to post something for people to listen and judge openly is something worth looking up to. Whether its gonna sell millions of records is another thing.

 

[soft]

so can i post my honest comments about ronin?

please start a new thread on it.

 

[knucklehead]

i believe this doesn't only happen in the music industry but as well as in our daily lives. perhaps that it's just 'our' culture that we can't be bothered to really speak up our minds and rather please the other party than to help them improve.

i'm quite slow at picking up the 'carebear' thing until i read this thread.

bad comments/ critiques = dissing. that's quite true. even if it's meant to diss, how can one distinguish diss & positive criticisms on the net ?

so from here, i'm learning english (idk what scrutinize means & sum other words) & learning how to comment 'honestly' perhaps?

also, words like awesome yadda2 increases the person's confidence & pride, but that speck of confidence might be the peak of his downfall. it just puts him/her into a soft spot and becomes complacent on his current achievements. people like this unfortunately exists, and who's to blame for his downfall? no ones to blame in my perspective.

idk. to err is human.

 

[Cheez]

I agree with constructive criticisms. Without criticism, we don't learn and improve. Criticisms can come at different levels. We can critique as a music lover - in this case we don't have to play better than the one being critiqued as suggested by ShredCow. In the classical circle, we critique orchestras/players/concerts all the time. But no concert soloist is will tell off his audience "Why don't you try to play that yourself?" I guess the culture is already ingrained in the classical circle - people accepts criticisms, people critiques etc. In these days when anybody can be called a musician by just picking up a guitar and strumming a few chords, we enter into an era of young musicians with a different type of culture. They don't take criticisms easily because it is not part of their culture. There's something to be learned here...

We can also critique as a musician. In this case, I will expect the critic to give comments on technique and skills rather than just "That's awful playing." Either way, criticism in these aspects are constructive.

Just as there is non-constructive criticisms, I believe there is also non-constructive praises. That's also what Shredcow pointed out what many posted in OM. "Great playing", "Awesome"... I take these comments with a pitch of salt. It will be more constructive to say WHY the playing is "awesome", WHAT is the thing that makes them think the playing is "great". That is more constructive. Otherwise, these comments are not very helpful.

BUT, having said that, we must remember that this is a forum for all kinds of people. Not everybody is a good critic. It takes time and experience to be a good critic. So I wouldn't be too hard on people who does not critic - otherwise only a few will be posting here. It would better, however, to encourage critics to voice out their criticisms (constructively), rather than to critique those who don't critique (wow, that's a mouthful!). Then on the part of those who got critiqued - accept it graciously and learn. If you can't accept criticisms from a group of forumers, forget about progressing your music beyond this group of forumers. Because outside this forum in the real world, there are wolves whose criticisms cut you to the bone.

 

[Darren]

what are we criticising?

I believe in the potential of every band, if they stick to it long enough, and learn and evolve, and for goodness sake PRACTICE!!!

 

[knucklehead]

Cheez> nice post.
but then i ask myself, so what if it's nice? well, clearly said and elaborate. explains the whole point.

but then it takes time for us to really break away from our conservative culture. i used to have a white for my english teacher and i was astounded by her neverending constructive comments. some of her comments were enough to bring you down or in other words demoralize you. but hey, whats life without critics. but comparing her to another english teacher who is a local, well that teacher didn't help much. her comments are just plain & asks us to improve, but improve in what? not exaggerating but more than half of my class failed english in sec 3.

so on the whole, criticisms, constructive or not, encouraging or otherwise, just take it with a pinch of salt.
cheers

 

[Newbie]

I guess everyone's point is about, criticise properly or be more specific?

I feel that as musicians or even humans, you should learn to accept critics and not just want to hear praises. You may think you're a fantastic guitar player or you've got the best band out there, but true enough there ought to be some more experienced people who think you can improve further.

I too agree that critics which contain personal attacks, be it in the sarcasm form don't serve much purpose as a critic. It just shows how uncivilised you are. Rather than saying "Your song is boring" etc, give comment or suggestions on how he can improve on the song and not just "gah another typical trouble maker" mindset. (Then the series of flaming starts)

On the other hand, as humans you should learn to accept critics be it "make sense or not". From experience, I learnt something called "you take what is good and put down what is bad". If the moment someone gives you constructive critics/comments, and as a 'egoistical' musician(no offence to anyone) you say, er thanks and don't appreciate their comments, then what more can these people do?

We can of course, comment nicely, specify what minute what second add abit of modes add abit of effects etc, but its up to the person if he wish to improve and stuffs. I've listened to tons of OMs, same people commenting and criticising, same oldddd post, "u should add in more variation bla bla", but all the OM from the person sound the same to me again and again?