Gibson's neck tenon and why I won't buy another Gibby

Well, the condoms part was an example of QC. Quality Control. Do your research on Quality Control, Quality Assurance and Total Quality Management and come back to me with a response. It helps to understand what ISO 9001:2000 means as well. People think it means a quality product, when it's certification for a quality management system.

Yes, condoms are not instruments, unless you enjoy stretching and picking them. Don't re-use them.

The industrial definition of QC is applicable here. Guitars involve manufacturing/production processes, so do condoms, so do cars, mobile phones etc. But the details are indeed different, their approach to various aspects are different. But nevertheless, QC means inspection, reworking and scrapping when necessary. And QC is implemented in the manufacturing plant. It's the most traditional and costly way to ensure quality. You have mistaken QC with quality.

Why can't you make a wild guess? I thought you said that "Extra QC is also cost" while we are on the subject of Gibson???

Well, the industry will always have a need for techs and luthiers. They have different fields to work in. Some work for bands, others operate as a store owner or in a workshop. And Parker guitars aren't very popular in the market as compared to the traditional wooden necks and nickel silver frets. You omitted the "bad shipping and handling practices could screw it up." in your quote. "Anyway it still means less jobs." is too simple for a response. Yet I still see that Malcolm's services (it seems that he is a sole proprietor, hence self-employed) are coveted by some of the SOFTies here, despite his higher prices. They sure know what they are gonna get from him, compared to others. Jobs? What jobs?

"Again, a lousier guitar QC wise will not cost a loss in a human life." Well that's true. So we only bother when it involves the loss of a human life?

"Maybe you can suggest a better way to price 2nd hand goods then?" You have missed the whole point. The point is, GC operates solely as a 2nd-hand dealer with a storefront. In US or Japan, no one sensible will do that. The stores over there have authorized dealership for various brands, carry, market and sell products. And they do carry and sell used guitars as an alternative, esp for those with budget constraints or want something cheap. Of course, KC, I know what you work as. Guitars certainly aren't FMCG, but new guitars tend to move faster than used ones.

Ah... The comparison with 2nd-hand dealers and resellers with humidity.
What I meant to say is, there must be moderation. Right now, there is a saturation, an excess. Of course, too little 2nd hand dealers would be a bad thing too. Furthermore, with a new entry in the form of orangeguitars.com, I think GC might be in trouble! :twisted:
 
haha... competition from orangeguitars.com?

i'm not exactly sure how much people warm up to secondhands from another country, shipped over, with no guarantee that you will get an excellent playing guitar. While both are in the 2nd hand business, i think it is clear the market segments are different, with GC's customers being more meticulous and less willing to take risk buying more or less purely online transaction.

anyway i always buy my extra parts, pots, trem bars from GC. they seem to be the only well stocked shop in town :)
 
Hmm... I recall seeing a post from someone who has tried a guitar at orangeguitars? Something to do with Tokai or Burny LP, not sure...
 
he has 2 ways of doing business if i'm not mistaken. some of his guitars (tokai's epip jap, burnys) are already at singapore. and some others are at japan, he sourced them out and can get for you if you're interested.
 
mudmechanic said:
A request for Malcolm. .

Mark,

Gibson took the pic off their Custom Shop website soon after it was posted. A maelstrom ensued after some folks on the Les Paul Forum posted the pic in most guitar forums all over the Internet. Gibson got a lot of backlash on how an Les Paul Standard costs what it cost and this was the quality of the neck joint.

If I'm not mistaken, the incident happened almost a year ago and completely slipped my mind till someone brought it up at another forum recently.
 
But nevertheless, QC means inspection, reworking and scrapping when necessary. And QC is implemented in the manufacturing plant. It's the most traditional and costly way to ensure quality. You have mistaken QC with quality.

Reworking and scrapping when necessary is really entirely up to the choice of the manufacturer. Its easy to agree on QC of condoms,but certainly not for guitars as different players have different takes on tone and feel. If some players like school bus frets, corian nuts, and 300 k pots, Gibson would piss them off if they did otherwise right? Condoms, either leak or doesn't. Of course there are human variables too =) But let's not talk about that here.

>Why can't you make a wild guess? I thought you said that "Extra QC is also cost" while we are on the subject of Gibson???

Extra QC implies more man hours and more man hours incurs more cost. Fact is extra QC does not mean an increase in sales.

"Again, a lousier guitar QC wise will not cost a loss in a human life." Well that's true. So we only bother when it involves the loss of a human life?

I'm just implying that a good guitar is one that feels good and sounds good to the individual, even with the perceived flaws from some luminiaries =) No need to be so anal about how things should be done, if they work they work. Rather spend more time highlighting the positive aspects of smaller builders than delving in others negativity. You don't see Ralph Novak criticising non fanned fret guitars on his website do u?

And why are u challenging my need to check definitions? Are u looking down on me being uneducated? =)

cheers,
KC
 
I think you made a very good point when you said:"a good guitar is one that feels good and sounds good to the individual."

Anything before that is whether it fundamentally works or not. The neck joints go beyond that. Cheers KC. See you at GC sometime.
 
Well... I don't claim to be an expert in this area.... but I love confess to having a love and passion for the guitar.

In this aspect, I want my guitar to play well and sound good.

I also want it to be a good axe in make.

Somehow, it will irk me if I find a design flaw in my guitar... It just does, despite it sounding/feeling good on me.

Its really just so ... vague and so personal isn't it? This matter of what makes a good guitar?

I'm not siding with anyone here but I thought Malcom was doing everyone a good favour by showing us this defect... I get the feeling that sometimes, when it comes to this very personal thing, words start getting typed in a rather hot way. Don't you think so 3notesAbar?
 
Hi Shred,

It is vague, but can it be otherwise? Even if you have a discourse on what makes a good guitar, you still need to improve as a player, and at the same time try out many many instruments before you decide what is good. Bad tenons leading to bad fret crowning leading to good refrets? Something up's there don't you think so?

I've always been happy to help as you know. Unless you think otherwise=) And I don't think there has been anything too hot yet. I think everybody is still civil. Its a forum, its inevitable that we step into each other's turf

cheers,
KC
 
Oh... I failed to convey my message across... I am such a failure... :(

Could someone please tell me why the Japanese companies were threatened with lawsuits back then? Perceived as threats, right? Higher quality, lower selling price.

"If some players like school bus frets, corian nuts, and 300 k pots, Gibson would piss them off if they did otherwise right?"

Ah... So illogical. That's no longer quality, more on options offered. Period. Why are there consumers out there comparing Tokai/Burny/Greco LPs with Gibson's?? And why is it those discerning and discriminating players will go out of their way to ship a guitar from a Japanese store like Ishibashi?

Quoted from empty71:
"The Japanese and Korean copies have better fret work than most Gibsons "
Now that statement remains within the context and definition of quality. While yours doesn't.

"And why are u challenging my need to check definitions? Are u looking down on me being uneducated? =) "
Hmm... I thought it would be good for you to expand your mind a little, I didn't know you were uneducated, sorry. But not all uneducated people are stupid. Depends on their speech and behaviour.
 
Yeah, most people here are feverent about their views, but have somewhat maintained diplomacy in their posts. I think this is the best a forum can be. As for me, forums still suck compared to hanging out with friends, even those who disagree with me! :)
 
I do agree with Shredcow. It's human nature, at least for most of us. As do the purchase of any products, especially of your own interest...you will want the best for it. Best in this context refers to your own benchmark and expectations, i hope i sound logical up to this point. Topics of such and regarding tone for example are very touchy/subjective to guitarists.

Bad tenons leading to bad fret crowning leading to good refrets? Something up's there don't you think so?

referring to an earlier reply? i think it was Vaiyen who enquired about this particular process, what's with the 2nd line i don't really get it.

jumbo: the only reasons i could think of regarding the lawsuit copies is the trademark infringemark of the designs, and also/maybe the threat of better quality built copies over the original at a lower cost.

[/quote]
 
GC said:
I've always been happy to help as you know. Unless you think otherwise=)

Heh. Its cool man.. .I loved it when you looked at my Dimarzio Breed pickup wired the Seymore Duncan way and exclaimed the wiring was wrong. :)
 
GC said:
Hi Shred,

It is vague, but can it be otherwise? Even if you have a discourse on what makes a good guitar, you still need to improve as a player, and at the same time try out many many instruments before you decide what is good. Bad tenons leading to bad fret crowning leading to good refrets? Something up's there don't you think so?

I've always been happy to help as you know. Unless you think otherwise=) And I don't think there has been anything too hot yet. I think everybody is still civil. Its a forum, its inevitable that we step into each other's turf

cheers,
KC

To KC and all,

I have no hidden agenda and I don't appreciate the innuendo/insinuation :( I've noticed a few individuals have posted innuendos/insinuations which attack my character and integrity.

I'm just sharing what I've learnt for the benefit of all forum members here. If you've visited my website, you'll understand overly dressed frets is one of my pet peeves. Tho you may think I'm a bigot, I hope I'm still entitled to my own opinion :D

The repair business is enough to feed everyone my friend. Please. I would appreciate no more of such posts :?

Don't bother thanking me if you see an increase in fret re-crowning or re-frets.
 
GC said:
Yes, so no graphite guitar necks and stainless frets please! Hehe. Anyway it still means less jobs.
and
GC said:
Bad tenons leading to bad fret crowning leading to good refrets? Something up's there don't you think so?

These quotes show how insecure you are. Please, for the sake of the industry, be more professional. I disagree with GC's business practice to operate solely as a 2nd-dealer, but yes, in a much earlier post in another thread, I did say you guys seem competent in servicing and repairs. I give credit where it's due, and I am just too frank.

Truth be told, I was startled to hear Malcolm's prices for his services (what can I say? I am too price-conscious, and that's something rarely found in a Jap :roll: ). But as time went on, I noticed that there are qualities in him and his practice that justify the cost. I am not bootlicking him or anything like that, I am just being frank with facts. Fact is, I won't be his customer anytime soon since I stopped learning the guitar quite a long time ago. It's nicer to study the industry. :D
 
The forementioned quotes could either be seen as tongue in cheek or pure insecurity. I don't need to feel insecure, I can change careers if I want to thank you. But thank you for your confidence in us as a repair service provider.

Study the industry all you want, and if you can put forth your research in a way relevant to players and non-players. That's the most important. Its very easy to fall in the trap of ad populum fallacies.

regards,

KC
 
Vaiyen said:
wah lau, tech vs luthier. wth.

Repair a guitar and you can call yourself a tech. Likewise build a guitar and you can call yourself a luthier. Neither of them may be successful in their career paths. Its unnecessary to make that distinction here for a healthy discussion.
 
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