Gibson's neck tenon and why I won't buy another Gibby

[jumbofret]

Well, yeah Fender Jpn wasn't an outsourcing program, like what you said, it only entertains the Japanese domestic market. Fujigen-Gakki has Greco and Fender Japan under it's wings.

Hmm, "it depends who you outsource to rite"... Partially true there.

You see, why do many manufacturers (not related to guitars here) outsource to China? Cost-savings. Take the iPod for example. Designed by Apple, in USA, but assembled in China. The quality is still good.

To me, there are 2 types of cost-savings. One is the ethical one, which benefits both sides. The other is cutting corners, which is totally evil!

Quality depends on the manufacturers' quality mgmt team.

 

[lppier]

It sounds like Gibson are shooting their own asses by posting a pic like that - I mean, the standard series are cheaper and more mass-market right? It'll scare potential buyers away..

Pier.

 

[jumbofret]

I don't think that pic will scare people away. Because

a) Only a guitar tech or a luthier knows the facts regarding neck construction
b) There will ALWAYS be the cooler-than-thou brandname snobs around.
c) Even when the tech or luthier informs people about this, there will always be people around with thousands to spend on obstinacy.

If the fact that Gibson uses plastic nuts and the worst fret job doesn't turn you off, I don't know what will. It is simply a reflection of their manufacturing objectives and attitude.

 

[psionic]

Sure...it depends who you outsource to rite?....

yea just like oreo production shift to malaysia...now it tastes like crap

 

[Writer]

the nut on any custom shop Fenders r also made of plastic....

Malcolm can testify to that....

 

[jumbofret]

Hahaha! I don't like these 2 brands, currently I am not interested in flaming and bashing them. :lol:

psionic, that's a very funny illustration!

 

[Writer]

jumbo...

what guitars do u have in ur arsenal?

 

[Vaiyen]

sorry OT a little, what does it mean by 'crowning' and 'dressing' frets?

 

[jumbofret]

writer: One real one, the brand is Rira, it's in the format of Super-strat, the other is a Behringer Strat that I abuse with learning experiments. I think I posted it in some other thread, can't remember where...

 

[empty71]

sorry OT a little, what does it mean by 'crowning' and 'dressing' frets?

Well, the correct order should be to dress and then crown after dressing.

Dressing the frets means to level them after fretting. Most manufacturers and even techs and luthiers don't do a good job planing and prepping the fingerboard. After the fingerboard is fretted, there will be some frets that're seated taller than most. Dressing the frets involves using a file to level the top of the frets.

Most fretwire has a semi-circle cross section and when you dress the frets, you're effectively removing the crown or semi-circle profile. Crowning the frets is to round the top of the frets again after dressing. You want the string to contact as little fret material as possible for accurate intonation.

If you notice most Gibson, Fender and even some expensive makes, none of their frets are perfectly crowned IMHO. For Gibson in particular, the top of their frets have like almost 1mm flat spot. That's not conducive for accurate intonation.

You can see example of my fretwork in my website to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. I should post some example of bad fret work just so you guys have an idea. We'll see.......

 

[Vaiyen]

thanks for the enlightenment Malcolm

 

[GC]

I don't think that pic will scare people away. Because.

I agree with jumbo. However I have things to add.

A) a guitar tech or luthier may know, but can also be dogmatic about what is good and bad. There are always ways to justify a course of action. The thing is, if you are careless enough to drop the guitar, you pay for the abuse, simple as that. Acoustic guitars are pretty fragile, should we start making them drop proof?

B) Creating a brand name is important. Hence some fanciful websites/forums sprouting out. Most aren't players anyway, so would people appreciate the extra QC? Extra QC is also cost, extra branding is also cost. In the end its the rich who will still brag. Just that they start bragging about QC and the brand at the same time. Still many of them can't play. What's the point of extra QC? (disclaimer: purely business perspective)

To play devil's advocate, if QC was so good at factories, most shop guitar techs would be out of job. Its not always a bad thing. I can understand the price/peformance/quality equation, but it doesn't always work that way. Most people don't marry the prettiest, most intelligent and caring women. Most of the time anyway. Then again its subjective isn't it=)

C) People are stubborn, you can't change that. After super size me, the crowd at mac's hasn't dwindled. Most important I feel, is a guitar which allows you to make good music. One can be stubborn about using Fender about Gibson. Doesn't matter. One doesn't need a tom anderson, grosh or tyler to make good music. If a tom anderson helps you write better, I'll be happy to hear that. However if the motive is to talk about how bad gibson and fender is, well I don't see the point really. Unless one feels sore about their success =)

cheers to everybody's instrument, TGM or otherwise. Let music breathe. Instruments are just tools and vehicles. Which is why people like Malcolm are so important as well. To provide better facilitation for the music to breathe.

KC

 

[Vaiyen]

well, I believe the point of this thread is to serve as a warning to those who perhaps erroneously believe they are getting supreme quality for the top dollar they are paying for their high-end guitars.
Musicians have to look out for fellow musicians. Everyone should know exactly what he is getting for his money. We should protect each other from getting fleeced.

 

[GC]

Unfortunately it doens't matter if rich people get flecced. Musicians if they are musicians know the sound they are looking for. And that's all that matters

cheers,
KC

 

[empty71]

Let music breathe. Instruments are just tools and vehicles. Which is why people like Malcolm are so important as well. To provide better facilitation for the music to breathe. KC

Thanks KC You're important too and you're definitely providing services for our local musicians as well

 

[Vaiyen]

"Musicians if they are musicians know the sound they are looking for. And that's all that matters"


true to a certain extent, but IMO, only seasoned players will know exactly what kind of sound they want. What abt the young GnR fan who suddenly wants to play guitar like Slash(there are A LOT of people like this), and then goes on to work like a dog at fastfood restaurants to save up for an LP, which he thinks to be godlike because of the hype around it and the high price? When he could have got a Jap copy of similiar quality at a third the price. Why fatten the wallets of those corporate giants when a little bit more information would steer him to a different, more prudent path? Why make him suffer for nothing? That's what we as fellow musicians should do.
This is a forum primarily catered to musicians, so I'm speaking from a musician's perspective, not a 'perfect equilibrium, peace and harmony between musos and corporations' perspective.

sorry if this post looks too rambling, heheh.

 

[Mobius]

Never was attracted to Gibsons even though some of my fav players like Slash and Angus Young play Gibsons. Always feel they are overpriced and overhyped.

 

[jumbofret]

Nice take on the subject, GC. Brilliant!

A) "if you are careless enough to drop the guitar, you pay for the abuse, simple as that. Acoustic guitars are pretty fragile, should we start making them drop proof?" No one ever said that the set-necks in Gibbys were only weak, or that we should make LPs shock-proof. Generally, set necks are weaker than bolt-ons and neck-thrus. It's amazing to hear people expressing fear over neck breakage for neck-thrus. Very unlikely to happen, compared to set-necks.

B) "Extra QC is also cost, extra branding is also cost". Most people don't know the actual industrial definition of QC. The best cost-effective QC implementation I have known is in... condoms. The electrostatic testing, yeah... QC is simply known as inspection and re-working or scrapping defects. There are other terms such as Quality Assurance and Total Quality Mgmt. Oh yes, there's a growing interest in Tokai LP copies. Everyone who's interested knew that they were of a better make and yes, better features. At a better price, too.

So tell me, how much does QC cost for each Gibson LP guitar produced? Throw me a bone.

"if QC was so good at factories, most shop guitar techs would be out of job." Not true. There will always be a demand for luthiers and guitar techs. Why? Because guitars are made of material that will detoriate or change over time. Necks need to be adjusted, frets need to be replaced, etc. And also, even if they did a perfect set-up at the factory, bad shipping and handling practices could screw it up.

C) "However if the motive is to talk about how bad gibson and fender is, well I don't see the point really. Unless one feels sore about their success =) " My motive is not to talk about how bad Gibbys and Fenders are. My motive is to give better alternatives and increase industry awareness. Also, I believe Malcolm was pointing out the flaws in LPs, and that money spent on such products is ill-spent. And what he did, is nothing new really. A lot of intelligent SOFTies have pointed that out in earlier posts.

All in all, I can see why you adopted such a defensive mode. This is because you, GC, operates solely as a 2nd-hand dealer, buying and selling used stuff (brand name is one of the main pricing factors you use, eh?). Where else could you go to if you wanted a Fender/Gibson below retail price and when you've missed the clearance sales? Let me get this straight, ok? What 2nd-hand dealers and resellers are to the market is like what humidity is to a guitar. And now, it's like S'pore's humidity.

 

[mudmechanic]

A request for Malcolm. Could you give me the link to the picture you psoted? Looked at the Gibson custom shop site and couldn't find it.

With regard to the crowning of the frets on Gibsons, the LP models frets are designed to be flattened to produce the 'fretless effect' that was produced on the Les Paul Custom in the 60's. This produces a less accurate intonation in the begining, but less variation while wearing down and makes the guitar smoother to play. Most LP players are happy with this

What we as techs may find incorrect or not up to standard may not agree with what players themselves find. I have a LP special from 1978 and find it wonderful to play even with all the flaws that Gibson are supposed to have.

cheers,

Mark.

 

[GC]

Dear Jumbofret,

Thanks for the candid response.

>Generally, set necks are weaker than bolt-ons and neck-thrus. It's amazing to hear people expressing fear over neck breakage for neck-thrus. Very unlikely to happen, compared to set-necks.

Agreed, however, please don't drop a set neck guitar either! It pains my heart to see one.

> "Extra QC is also cost, extra branding is also cost". Most people don't know the actual industrial definition of QC. The best cost-effective QC implementation I have known is in... condoms.

Condoms certainly cannot be treated like instruments. They are supposed to stop the spread of disease and unwanted pregnancies! The industiral definition of QC may not be so applicable here, as a 'poorly' made instrument won't cost a life. Unless of course you're doing a gig for Al Qaeda and your Les Paul neck snaps! =)


>So tell me, how much does QC cost for each Gibson LP guitar produced? Throw me a bone.

I cannot make a wild guess here. Maybe Malcolm knows better as he's been involved in manufacturing of guitars before.

>"if QC was so good at factories, most shop guitar techs would be out of job." Not true. There will always be a demand for luthiers and guitar techs. Why? Because guitars are made of material that will detoriate or change over time.

Yes, so no graphite guitar necks and stainless frets please! Hehe. Anyway it still means less jobs.

> My motive is to give better alternatives and increase industry awareness. Also, I believe Malcolm was pointing out the flaws in LPs, and that money spent on such products is ill-spent. And what he did, is nothing new really. A lot of intelligent SOFTies have pointed that out in earlier posts.

Kudos to u, I never doubted your good intentions. Money ill spent is really how you rationalise it. If someone must have a Gibson on his headstock, its no point telling him that heritage is better. Again, a lousier guitar QC wise will not cost a loss in a human life.

>All in all, I can see why you adopted such a defensive mode. This is because you, GC, operates solely as a 2nd-hand dealer, buying and selling used stuff (brand name is one of the main pricing factors you use, eh?).

Maybe you can suggest a better way to price 2nd hand goods then? I'm actually serious. I'm open to suggestions. Anyway I don't do the pricing strategies, I'm just happy helping out with the repairs. I will feedback your opinions if I think its sound.

>Let me get this straight, ok? What 2nd-hand dealers and resellers are to the market is like what humidity is to a guitar. And now, it's like S'pore's humidity.

I do not see the parallels, please be more direct. Too little humidity is bad for the guitar as well =)


cheers,
KC