Developing Musicality

[pf]

Hi people,

my friend is sending her 4 year old daughter to her first piano lesson. Its 1 to 1, classical piano. Most likely to go via the ABRSM route if the girl can stand being at the piano. The parents want their daughter to have an inclination towards music as she grows up.

The mother was shocked when I told her that learning classical piano might not make her a more musical person. As I have seen 2 friends who did classical piano: one Grade 5 in her late teenage years and still can't keep a steady rythmn while playing and can't sing at the correct pitch, another Grade 4 when she's a child but totally forgot what is the C scale. Their training hasn't really made them more incline towards music.

I think one of the courses which develop musicality in a child is the Yamaha group class, where the moms sit with the kids to learn together and interactively with other kids on rythmns, various sounds to make music.

But there are a lot of us, like me, who didn't have a chance to go for those classes as a kid and started out as an adult. So, how do adults develop musicality?

 

[Cheez]

Pf, what is your definition of musicality?

 

[vernplum]

A subject I'm interested in.

First off, I'd say that sending her to the classes is more likely to make her musical than not sending her to the classes.

Otherwise, what other options are there?

There are those music enrichment classes such as Kindermusic which sing songs and do movement and rhythm exercises. There might be singing classes? Other types of instrument or curricula (or non-curricula) such as pop music guitar strum and play, or pop keyboards such as they have at Yamaha which is quite in contrast to more rigid ABRSM type courses.

A first step in developing musicality in anyone has to be an appreciation and love of music, so certainly exposure to a diverse range of different types of music and a range of music with strong melodies could help inculcate that sense of rhythm, melody and harmony which might soon lead to the child humming and singing and even coming up with their own little tunes or words.

 

[pf]

In Barbara English Maris' book titled "Making Music at the Piano: Learning Strategies for Adult Students", she has a chapter called Developing Musicality. There is nowhere I can find her defination for musicality.

But at the beginning of the chapter she wrote: "Expression presents the essence of music, and I believe that playing expressively is an essential priority for all musicians, not a luxury reserved for a few." So, I suppose she defines it is expression. Throughout the chapter, she talks about pitch, timing, tempo, controlling dynamics, even resonance.

Some people can play everything correctly but still don't sound musical. Others can play the same piece and touch the hearts of the audience.

I gathered that musicality is a sensitivity to combining sounds and rhythmns and how to use them to communicate musical ideas.

Hope to hear sharing of your experiences in learning music.

 

[[vogue]angel]

i'm one of those players that, sight read is average, but rhythm wise, i can't count. if people ask me the time signature stuff or how to count, i'm dead. but i have almost perfect pitch hearing. ( Guess you can't have it all)

back to musically, i think is how a person interpret the song and technique on how to play. My teacher always stress on DYNAMICS, DYNAMICS,DYNAMICS!!!!!
until now, it's still ringing in my head. she also explain the song, telling it through a story, music is a story, not some kind of crap. it's an ART.

Musically can be develop, it's all about THE LOVE FOR IT. ( dun care if you are 8 - 80 years old). The music you play must come from ur emotion, heart and soul. besides that, you should listen to all kinds of music to increase ur vocab. i went for a jazz workshop organize by Mingus Big Band. I manage to ask tis trumpet player, he say to me tis " listen to more music to increase your vocabulary, any kind of music actually helps"

bout the gal that sings out of tune, i think she might be tone deaf. Classical music is a discipline. Pf, sometimes it's not the childs fault, but the teacher also plays a part in developing tis part of musicality. i read in a magazine of a kid that loves HENDRIX. HENDRIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( tis is due to influence by adults)

So, it's up to adults also

 

[pf]

I don't mean to say that classical piano is no good at all. Just thought that it is incomplete in the world of music.

As above, classical music is a discipline. =)

 

[soft]

Hmm... this topic quite cheem.

Musicality for musician is different from the musician and listener's point of view.

For musicians, they will practise until they get it. The correct notes, the correct feel and tempo.

For listeners, there is a personal preference in music included on top of the above.

If i listen to a whole night's worth of Blues which is supposed to be VERY high in musicality, I will most prob faint.

But, if I listen to a whole night's worth of Smooth Jazz, I will feel that the music and musicians are great.

The friends you mentioned might not be able to do those things you said but I am sure, with just a little guildence plus their previous knowledge, it would be easy for them to get it.

I hope I got the musicality part your mentioned right. hee..hee see, my musicality and your musicality....

 

[Cheez]

I tend to agree with James. If by "musciality" you mean "musical sense", then there's the point of view from player and listener. I have friends who does not play their instrument very well, but has a very high "musical sense" and can critique music/players/music works very well.

From the point of a player, it's more than playing the right notes and getting dynamics right. It's the ability to interpret the music to make "musical sense".

So back to the topic - although there are some who are "gifted" (remember another thread in the recent past about giftedness?), musical sense can be trained. A person who is "gifted" but not trained will be limited; a person who is not gifted but has training can learn and gain the "musical sense", a person who's not gifted and not trained will never develop it; a person who's gifted and trained will have it best (think I've covered all the possible combinations... )

So, I agree with vernplum. Having training is better than no training. The child may learn music but not develop musical sense, but no training (and not gifted) = no chance at all. Learning music gives her a chance. I think the problem is people see classical music as robotic and lack creativity while most people who "improvises" has no formal training seem to be more creative (stress on the word "seem"). This is a fallacy that hopefully we can start to get rid of. Classically trained people are not less creative - creativity is expressed differently. And those without formal training but "improvises" - if you hear most of the improvisations, they are not real improvisisations but rojak. Playing random or certain fixed riff/shred (whatever you call them) does not make that improvisation. Otherwise, any 3 year old can improvise - record some of the random playing, and speed it up 5-10x/ However, with formal training, those who improvises will be able to develop their creativity more.

Perhaps, the problem is how classical music are taught. Traditionally, we are taught to pass exams. Just like school - many things we learned are just head knowledge and we are taught to focus on the exams. Few study for the fun of study and apply it in life (one of my relatives told me when he was young, he had difficulty passing maths in school because he can't see how differentiation and integration, dy/dx etc can be applied to his life - a VERY practical point of view! Anyway, he graduated with Masters - not in maths obviously!). I believe classical teaching is changing and classical teachers are now teaching more rounded than in the past.

Back to the school analogy - even though we don't use all the things we use in school and most things are head knowledge, those with education still do better than those who don't have education. So, classical training is better than no classical training.

 

[pf]

Good point, James & Cheez. Yeah I supposed there is the musicality to the listener.....and musicality to the performer.

The book I mentioned focus on performing. Topic cheam meh??? Hahaha.....just some thoughts when I was reading and trying to apply it. =)

My friends are not really bothered about whether they can make music or not. I think they decided to be on the audience seat for the time being.

Shall we focus our discussion on musicality on performing? To the general public.

Btw, I concur that people need some form of training to be more musical in the performing sense. What sort of training then?

 

[[vogue]angel]

wow, great explanation from the "sifus", James and Cheez. totally agree wif u cheez bout the training. as i always believe a child can be train no matter how. and Classical music rock. but i really hate piano exams. took only 3 in my entire life.

sometimes, improvisation is hard to differentiate. Not many people know how to differentiate "rojak" and the "real deal". i also have trouble differentiating it, especially in jazz and blues, the chords and appeggios are hard. sometimes, ROJAK sounds nice ( mayb i'm not pro enough to hear the diff )

well, performance wise. I put it in tis way, it's how u and ur music interact wif ur audience. what makes a great performer is de music speaks to u, somehow it grows on u.

the training? not very sure wif it. but for myself, i try to understand the piece and see the dynamics. n last is, try to imagine a story out of the piece ( i noe it sounds stupid, but i do it )

correct me if i'm wrong......

 

[Cheez]

Although we can generally split musical sense into listening and playing, I think in real life, they are closely inter-related. And I believe it starts from the "listener point of view". I think it boils down to 2 things:

1. Listening to others play - listen to how others play the same piece of music you are playing; listening to music in general. This trains to understand how other players interpret the music.

Listening to music is important as a start, but it ends there if the person doesn't understand what he/she is listening. So that brings us to point 2:

2. Analysis. Anaylsing a piece GREATLY heighten one's musical sense. This trains to understand how the composer interprets the music (or meant it to be interpreted). When I was in primary school, music is pure learning skills. When I got into MEP in secondary school and was taught analysis, my view of music sudden widened. I started to see what I hear, and music becomes visual rather than just auditory. Can't explain. In short, I was hooked. Every single music that's played in the air, my analysis mode automatically turns on. At that time, I wondered why my piano teacher never taught me that in theory. But then, it was not in the theory syllabus - see, everything is exam focussed!

After this (which has so far been from the "listener point of view"), one will have to translate that into playing. From here, it's all about skills. Without skills and techniques, those with listening skills will get stuck here. And if skills doesn't improve, it also gets stuck here. We need techniques to translate what we understand in the head into what comes out as music. So if a player has training since young, he/she is likely to move forward here.

After this, I think it becomes cyclical. As a person has the skills, he/she will better understand how another musician/player does things and why that player plays it that way. That gets analysed, absorbed, and then turns into playing. And the cycle goes on.

My thoughts...

 

[pf]

Wow....interesting. How does one analyze music?

 

[KAI]

I strongly agree with you, Cheez.

To me, I found that listening to ALL KINDS of MUSIC is very very important. Don't be biased. There shouldn't be any hierarchy in the language of music, although some people might think that Classical music and Jazz music is the "Highest level".

To me, different kinds of music brings me different listening experience, inspire me with different musical ideas.

When talks about listening, I actually found out that some of my students are not aware of their playing when they are playing the instrument, meaning that they are not listening! This is very important, if one can't hears his own playing, how is he going to interpret and express the music?

What Cheez has mentioned, can be summarised into the following:
1) INPUT (Listening)
2) PROCESS (Analyse music, from different aspect of music, it could be orchestration, instrumentation, harmony, rhythm, counterpoint, etc.)
3) OUTPUT (Singing, Playing an instrument, composing, transribing music, etc.)

From here we can see that music theory has an important role to help us listening and analysing music, and finally expressing music.

 

[Cheez]

Nicely and succinctly categorized, Kai. I like it!

And I agree too that theory comes in the process, very clearly. But unfortunately, music theory are also taught to be exam focused, and therefore does not go into analysis.

Pf - hard to explain analysis is a few sentences. Always good to start with a score in front of you. Don't need score when you are used to it - can just do it by ear. It can be more difficult for people who cannot read scores as they will have to learn to do it by ear, but not impossible. For most music we hear today, doing by ear is not difficult. However when you come to a complex piece with more complex orchestrations or instrumentations, having a score will help greatly.

Can start a new thread on that if you want to go further into it.

 

[pf]

Done! http://soft.com.sg/forum/how-keyboard/53607-how-analyze-music.html

 

[Luciela]

Woooh!! What an interesting thread! Well, here are my unimportant 2 cents ya...

Firstly, I have to agree with pf. In Singapore, most parents are well known for pushing their children, especially in school. Not that it's a bad or a wrong thing- however, forceful pushing when their child is not inclined towards a certain aspect is just too much and should be discouraged.

For something as abstract as creativity, it sorely depends on the individual's talent.

I personally believe that passion and talent are the two important things to an individual's inclination towards anything. Simply put, there is no point forcing a child to learn notation and classical piano if he or she does not want to/show interest in.

The child may be talented in other areas, say, drama, sports or writing, but I strongly disagree with forcing a child to go for lessons if he/she does not want to. I know parents want their child to excel in everything, but some parents have to accept the fact that the child simply cannot do well in an area they think he or she should (or can).

However, that doesn't mean the the parent cannot send the child for lessons- some children might discover their ability then, but if progress is not shown WITHOUT pressure, then it simply means the child is not interested or has no talent in it.

As for your question about musicality... well that's a rather profound one.

I'm a rather creative person- I sing, write, act, draw, play and talk so I guess my talent lies in the arts, although I graduated with a science diploma. x.X

I would consider myself... an artist.

Not an artiste, but an artist.

My aim when I produce work is to express myself.

I do this by writing poems, stories, drawing or playing an instrument (or at least, attempting to clumsily, hahaha...)

As a musician, musicality to me is expression of form through the medium of sound. The tunes on the piano are just more than notes that appear when the mallet hits the string to produce a sound at a certain frequency... no, that is a scientist's interpretation of what music is. An artist's perception of what music is is much more profound. I see music as emotions- a note has a memory, an identity. Each note has ia name (only I can't be bothered to learn it HAHAHA) and a medley of notes coming together signifies the marriage of different individuals to form something new... like, a compound substance.

So when I hear a piece, I hear the emotions that come with it... it is the artist's rendition of his feelings, thoughts and words that he wants to express in a way that he can. I don't find it any different from me writing a poem, because poems I write show, clearly and succinctly, the story that I want to express.

Famous composers such as Mozart, Beethoven, Pachelbel all have a story to tell via their music. It's more than just tunes; it's them, their personification.

Notes on an instruments are just like the alphabets to a word.

So from a listener's POV, musicality is what is pleasing to my ears. Of course, this is metaphorically speaking. 'ears' in this sense mean what kind of sensory delights it elicits within me- memories, taste, smell, touch, feel. Yes, music can do that much to me...

From a musician's pov, perhaps I need to learn notation properly and fiddle with software to express myself. My inability to compose is akin to a student who cannot write an essay because she doesn't know the words to it. However, once she learns those words, she would be writing a lot of things she always wanted to say, but couldn't.

 

[piano_ex]

I don't mean to say that classical piano is no good at all. Just thought that it is incomplete in the world of music.

It is complete .... and still expanding. Just don't take those failure (only grade 3-6) as a classical pianist. They are classical piano student ... not fully fledge pianist yet. Even grade 8 is fully fledge.

The 2 friends that you mention pf, most probably have wrong training.... partly will be teacher's fault (as there are so many grade 8 teacher ... so it's not a wonder =) )

 

[crazyguy106]

I'm a person who's trained in classical music from age of 4, so I hope I can help answer some of your questions.

"Musicality", I think, would be defined as the ability to express and understand things in music. Which is what a few people have mentioned as well. You want to develop a young person's musicality? Make her interested in music.

I personally have been listening, playing and loving music since I was a kid. I never really found out much till I reached secondary school (quite duh because only then could I develop a deeper understanding). Most important things which happened to me: Teachers who made me interested in learning more about music, orchestras and groups which made me interested in keeping the music going AND of course lots of music which sound great to me.

Personally from Singapore National Youth Orchestra I know many classical players who NEVER really understood musicality. They just played notes rather than music. That's why you know people who can't do anything but play notes. That's why getting a good teacher and providing inspirations are important in getting children to keep interest and thus develop musically.

Ways I would advise to ensure that your child develops a musical inclination:
1. Get a good teacher who knows his/her stuff and keeps the child interested
2. Get a teacher who can teach technique in an interesting way or be able to force the child to practise WITHOUT losing interest
3. Be interested YOURSELF. Children follow their parents the most, and if you don't really care about music but want your children to be musically inclined, it's a dream on. Get involved in their education as well if you personally don't know anything about music, it'll help them out a lot and it'll keep them going.
4. Do NOT compare them to other people when they're younger. "Look! He took Grade 8 already and you're still at Grade 5!" Best way to kill interest is doing this kind of things.
5. You want a truly musically-inclined child? Expose him/her to literally all kinds of music from classical to melodic death metal (this one would probably be only when they're older), from >_< smooth jazz to classic swing and bebop, from classic rock to progressive rock. You choose what to expose your child to, but at the end of the day if you really want a very musical and very open eared child this is important.

You cannot ENSURE anything also, because if the child's interest isn't there, it would never be. But these are ways to help. It partially did for me. Get the child to join a group of young musicians to keep the interest going as well. =)

Hope this helps

 

[pf]

Hmmm....I'm not in the position to make that statement since I'm no music connoisseur. Apologies!!

Probably wrong teacher. And maybe they themselves do not have enough passion to learn perhaps.

It is complete .... and still expanding. Just don't take those failure (only grade 3-6) as a classical pianist. They are classical piano student ... not fully fledge pianist yet. Even grade 8 is fully fledge.

The 2 friends that you mention pf, most probably have wrong training.... partly will be teacher's fault (as there are so many grade 8 teacher ... so it's not a wonder =) )

 

[pf]

Ummm.....can we talk about adults huh? I'm quite sure the children are easily exposed to music with the classes and the tv programs such as hi-5. They also have much more time to spend for parents to immerse themselves in music as well.

I find that its more challenging for adults.