An Interesting Conversation

[daryl]

"it is easy for us over here to say that God does not exist and then not do anything about the injustices"

It is easy for us over here to say that god exists and not go anything about the injustices too, what's your point? that a belief in god must lead to morality? how about the fear of hell that leads to belief in god?

"But it is the people who have the faith, in the face of death, to go into the fray and try to help alleviate suffering"

So you're implying that only believers in god, the ones who have "faith" help "alleviate" the "suffering"? And that is based on? Isn't it a fact that the violence was caused by so called believers of god who let god guide their actions?

"that are evidence that God's presence has manifested itself in even the most terrible situations."

evidence? the only evidence I see is evidence of people who care, people who have morals. why do you link morality with religiousness? are non-religious people then not capable of being moral? where's your logic?

I would love to see someone here attempt to prove the existence of god..

 

[yy_fuctup]

Tourist visa. This special category of visit visa is available for individual tourists from East and West Europe who are not entitled to be issued a visa on arrival, as well as visitors from Thailand, South Africa and China. Clear passport copy of the passenger with a minimum validity of 6 months for passport is required to process a tourist visa. Validity of visa is two months from the date of issue and one month from the date of entry into UAE. Visa is not renewable.

Entry Service Permit This is available to businessmen and tourists and is issued to all other nationals other than those who are eligible to get visa on arrival and tourist visa. Clear passport copy of the passenger with a minimum validity of 6 months for the passport is required to process the visa. For nationals of Yemen, Iraq, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya & Morocco 2 passport size photographs are required along with passport photocopy to process the visa. Validity of the visa is 14 days from the date of issue and 14 days from the date of entry into UAE, exclusive of arrival and departure days. Visa in not renewable.

Transit Visa This is a 96 hours visa issued to passengers who travel through UAE airports while traveling from one destination to another. A valid ticket with onward flight confirmation is a must for this visa.

Multiple Entry Visa This visa is issued to business visitors who are frequent visitors to UAE and who have a relationship with reputable company in UAE. Visa is valid for 6 months from the date of issue. Each visit must not exceed not more than 30 days from the date of entry. The visitor must enter Dubai on a visit visa and apply for a multiple entry visa while in UAE. German nationals can get one or two year multiple entry visas from UAE Embassy in Germany without a sponsor and the maximum duration of stay should not exceed three months in a year. US Citizens can get one or ten years multiple entry visas from the UAE Embassy in US with a sponsor. The maximum duration of stay per visit should not exceed six months.

from http://alghubaibatours.com/genaral information.htm

 

[bboy2388]

I'm not targeting you personally Daryl, apart from the fact that the reply was addressed to your post.

I wasn't calling you arrogant per se, but I was saying that it's arrogance we're all guilty of when we believe we know enough to claim that God does not exist. Do you know enough about the universe to DISprove that there was some form of intelligent creation?

I believe that people who alleviate suffering and bring peace where there is strife are doing God's work, whether they like to call it that, or not, because God, even if you don't believe in him in the Christian sense, is the manifestation of all that is good.

I ALSO believe that people who wage war in his name and murder innocents are NOT doing God's work. They are deluded, self-righteous, and have fallen away from truth. You have rightly labeled them "So-called" believers of God.

To me, as long as there is evidence that there is goodness and beauty in the world, there is sufficient evidence for me that God exists. Even when everything seems bleak, the tiniest spark of hope or selflessness, which will never burn out, is a sign for me that God exists.

It may be enough for me, but you probably need more "evidence". It's everywhere around you. Even if suffering is overwhelming, don't let it blind you to the goodness left in the world, which I personally believe is from God, and which without God cannot exist.

 

[fuzztremecho]

yy fuctup

thanks but this visa protocols and procedures does not state non-Muslims are allowed to stay there for only 6 months.

it is about the same as our sg visa protocols and procedures.

kindly checked with United Arab Emirates Embassy for a better view and grasp of their immigration and visa procedures.

then you might want to compare with our own Immigration Act and do a check with ICA.

thanks

and btw, kindly checked with Islamic Religious Council of Singapore or Singapore Muslims' Converts Association on the meaning of Allah.

thank you

 

[alvyn]

I wasn't calling you arrogant per se, but I was saying that it's arrogance we're all guilty of when we believe we know enough to claim that God does not exist. Do you know enough about the universe to DISprove that there was some form of intelligent creation?

Would I be barking up the wrong tree if I said that it's due to the lack of knowledge that we disprove the presence or existence of a higher being? Do we know enough to prove without a doubt that God exists? It's a very subjective argument where we can trade arguments the whole day and revolve around the same point.

I believe that people who alleviate suffering and bring peace where there is strife are doing God's work, whether they like to call it that, or not, because God, even if you don't believe in him in the Christian sense, is the manifestation of all that is good.

Why is God the sole manifestation of all that is good? I take it that "God" would refer to Jesus, so why this distinction? Are you implying that the various Gods of other religions are not the manifestation of all things good? Aren't all religions supposedly good? (Religions, not deviant religions)

I ALSO believe that people who wage war in his name and murder innocents are NOT doing God's work. They are deluded, self-righteous, and have fallen away from truth. You have rightly labeled them "So-called" believers of God.

How about the Crusade in the 16th century where Christian Europe went against all other religions, more significantly against the followers of the Islamic faith? Are you calling the whole of Europe "deluded, self-righteousness and fallen away from the truth?" Those were not "so-called" believers of God. They were Holy Men, staunch Christians who felt that the only right thing to do was to spread the word of God, and when diplomacy failed, war ensured.

To me, as long as there is evidence that there is goodness and beauty in the world, there is sufficient evidence for me that God exists. Even when everything seems bleak, the tiniest spark of hope or selflessness, which will never burn out, is a sign for me that God exists.

It may be enough for me, but you probably need more "evidence". It's everywhere around you. Even if suffering is overwhelming, don't let it blind you to the goodness left in the world, which I personally believe is from God, and which without God cannot exist.

[/quote]
I agree that the simplest spark of hope signifies the existence of a God. But I would like to know how this proves the existence of God. Trials and tribulations befalling you, with a small spark of hope? In all logical sense, that's nonsense. Why "tease" you with a small spark of hope when you're in a world of sh*t (to use a quote from Full Metal Jacket).

I'm Agnostic and proud of it. I believe in the existence of a higher being, but I don't really give a rat's ass. To an agnostic person like me, religion has sat by and done nothing more times than I can count, and has done nothing for me in return, save for bits and pieces here and there. I know the religious ones will tell me that I shouldn't expect anything from God because His love for me is unconditional and it's enough, but just a simple question. Why do we put our 100% into a religion, and trust in it whole heartedly without any returns? Religion is our way of seeking solace and peace when all else fails. When everything else fails, do we rely solely on a "spark of hope"? What good will that do?

I'm very proud to see this thread still going strong with 4 pages of replies, though some replies might have been blunt and a little too personal for my liking. I'm proud that such a mature thread could have proper replies, and great arguments.

p/s: to bboy2388, I hope you don't take it that I'm doing a personal attack on you... I'm just pointing out what I felt were some loopholes in what you typed.

 

[ac]

To classify all good things people do as attributable to a god figure, and to use that to prove god exists isn't a good enough reason.

An alternate reason provided by richard dawkins is the concept that genes, in an effort of gene population preservation, results in humans reacting altruistically towards each other. In another concept, it doesn't pay to have everyone acting "bad", since if everyone were bad, no one would cooperate to build anything - society, economies, etc. So innately, everyone is predisposed good to a certain extent. Good as in - neutral good, good good. It's only when misplaced beliefs come into play, that evil good exists.

 

[bboy2388]

You know, i'm getting really frustrated here.

I've stated REPEATEDLY that God does not Equal CHURCH.

When I say God, I don't mean Jesus.

When i say God is the manifestation of all that is Good, i mean that i take a manifestation of all that is Good in the universe to be God.

Does this make it clearer?

It's really damn tiring to keep saying God does not equal CHURCH for crying out loud.

 

[bboy2388]

Alvyn, i respect your ideas, but right now i think i'm just on a different page because it seems like people can't seem to think of God as anything other than a FIGURE. or the CHURCH.

My ideas are a bit different, i think.

 

[j_m_s]

Ha! In his own image. He? Now now. Aren't we being a little too chauvinistic? If God was really that just, why would he be a he? God isn't supposed to be "just" something to be called. The devil only exists because of God. There were apples.

He told the people what to write? You're just strengthening my point. The bible isn't his word. It is a second account and is hence deemed to be not as reliable.

To Soft, I don't see myself coming across as being offensive. I did not swear nor did I state any unjustifiable statements.

To fuzz, non-Muslims are only allowed to live there up to 6 months. Allah does mean to surrender.

To dom, I apologize if that makes you uncomfortable. I'm used to addressing people as that. I do admit I don't have a solid stand in this discussion. And I did change my points a few times. But isn't that the process of learning? I have you thank you too.

To daryl, I typed love. I avoid profanities.

Allah means something else, but not to surrender. read the papers. Past few weeks i believe. theres an article on it.

THERE WERE NO APPLES. why dont you point out which part shows there were apples? Please check your facts correctly.

The bible IS gods word. OK, so i tell my friend that im going to go out with him and my other friends to watch movie. then he writes it down or tells my other friends. Is it not my word? Its up to you to believe or not. second account, hmm you're a history student eh? So. Lets take this as a source based question?

And the angel taketh the censer; and he filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it upon the earth: and there followed thunders, and voices, and lightnings, and an earthquake. -revelations 8:5

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.- Matthew 24: 7- nation against nation. I think you can see all the conflicts.

havent we seen a number of earth quakes recently?

So, the provenance is the bible? the facts are in your newspapers. Now infer and tell me what the source tells you.

The devil does exist because of god. he was an angel. But he got greedy and wanted to overthrow god. the devil aka satan or lucifer was then cast out of heaven.

 

[daryl]

You should not use the term god then. You are using it in the Einsteinian sense of the word. It is misleading.

Do you believe in creationism? If creationism is not key to your definition of god, then you should not be using it so freely around here cause for many people, god = the christian god, the muslim god, the jewish god, you get what I mean.

 

[daryl]

j_m_s: Your logic is flawed.

And the angel taketh the censer; and he filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it upon the earth: and there followed thunders, and voices, and lightnings, and an earthquake. -revelations 8:5

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.- Matthew 24: 7- nation against nation. I think you can see all the conflicts.

havent we seen a number of earth quakes recently?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because the bible predicted earthquakes, does not mean that it is the cause for the earthquakes occuring. Earthquakes happen all the time.

The bible IS gods word. OK, so i tell my friend that im going to go out with him and my other friends to watch movie. then he writes it down or tells my other friends. Is it not my word? Its up to you to believe or not.

Yes it is your word. But do you see how easy it is for the source to be unreliable? Let's say your friend has a hidden agenda against you. Likewise, it is easy to see why the church would pervert the truth just to make their religion more "commercialized". To increase the number of followers, get more donations, etc. Taking the fact that they practically murdered scientists who went against their claims of the world (sun revolves around the earth, oh really?), how reliable is the church? And in effect, how reliable is the bible?

 

[yy_fuctup]

To fuzz, and you believe whatever the Singapore Society says?

To j_m_s, Yahweh created the devil then. Yahweh was the one who did not trust perfection in his creations.

I'll find the source for Allah's definition soon. Google doesn't seem to be working to my advantages. There was an apple. They ate it. And it is sin.

I'm sure there are parts where the Bible's predictions are true but why not look at the other side, where it is not? Also, if you state it in that manner, the Quran is even more so a better psychic than the Bible is.

 

[fuzztremecho]

yy fuctup

what Singapore Society are we talking about here?

kindly clarify.
its best for you to ask the true meaning of Allah from Islamic Religious Council or Singapore Muslims' Converts Association.

You can PM me and I would be glad to take you there instead from googling it up.
I do know the meaning but its best that we have an authorative figure to ask and define

Thanks

 

[j_m_s]

http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/gen3.html

on the apples.
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

theres NO mention of apples. I eat apples.

So wheres the word apple?

 

[yy_fuctup]

Now now, Christiananswers.net. That's propaganda in itself already. Hence I refuse to read. I take it to be apples. I thought Yahweh was almighty, he had everything in his control, guess he isn't perfect afterall. A God is deemed to be one only if he is flawless, however Yahweh is not, as you've got proven. Don't you see the paradox?

Bring me there? I'm not in Singapore. "Islamic Religious Council or Singapore Muslims' Converts Association." Those two society are both inclined towards Muslims are henced biased. So no thank you.

 

[j_m_s]

You refuse to read. you know why? Because you know you are wrong? Im taking a firm stand on this. and i shall re-iterate my stand again. they were NOT apples.

You take it to be apples? No offence but i dont think you are at a level of importance to say you think its apples, and therefore its apples.

Propaganda? Btw, its a link to the book of genesis. Not answers to a question.

Propaganda was what the Japanese used to win people over to their side during the Japanese occupation.... not the bible.

 

[fuzztremecho]

ok

yy fuctup

you are the best.+1 to you.you are the most knowledgable person I've known so far.
thank you for imparting me with your wisdom and knowledge.
once again thank you

anyway whenever you are in sg,my offer still open.


LALALA LALALA LALALA LALALA LALALA

 

[daryl]

Now why are you people arguing about apples??

And yyfuctup, I think the Islamic Religious Council and Singapore Muslims' Converts Association are more well-equipped and reliable in terms of defining the word "Allah" than some random web source. What's there to be biased about?

 

[j_m_s]

+1 on daryl's post on the councils

Daryl, im trying to show him... He's wrong.

 

[fuzztremecho]

bro daryl

durian season havent start yet..