a dumb comparison

[RudimentalDrummer]

Wah say me like that har Frank, wanna die faster izzit..Kekekekeke..I'm not so petty lah.

Anyway In any kind of Music one has to know it's Structure what. I mean of course if one knows the Melody he will be able to play better and more confidently in Jazz...BUT that does not mean ... Jazz can only be shared or taught in your manner right...Can't you give us some Basics.sssss Techniques and other Basics for people starting out Jazz Here?. ....

No Basics to Jazz, listen listen to all the Jazz songs and Melody - till the cow die already - also cannot play Jazz well what

 

[xenOgenesis]

=Blofeld

wasn't that what i was trying to put across to everyone on my previous post? why are you repeating what i said before?

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Frank - “A drummer, no matter how good he/she is technically, is useless unless he/she can apply what they know to the music” is obviously understood by all here already….but the Fundamentals Of Drummings has to be there 1st.

Going to your Jazz Jam venue where any participants (drummers here) will get the chance to mix around with some die hard jazz musos and play along with them is indeed of utmost importance if ones wants to learn do well in Jazz…but they also need to know some simple Jazz Basics 1st , if they are new into this area (which many of DXS Members is). It’s just like watching Tama Goh play every night will not make any of us a fairly good Jazz Drummer automatically if we are all still new into Jazz simply by listen/watching him play along with the music

There must be some other basic pre-requisite ones need to understand 1st, even before jamming along with a Jazz Band…especially when those Jazz Musicians are very experience (like those in your Jam Session)

As a drummer eg. You - can be into drums too without the music at many a times, I don’t see - Why Not? …especially when you as an experience Jazz Drummer is sharing/teaching something about Jazz Drumming to us all at DXS…because not everyone here knows or understand Jazz Theory and Structure when they are just starting out into this area…as mentioned many of us here are NEW into Jazz….

You are also a Drum Instructor – would you start off sharing Jazz, teaching your students (new into Jazz drumming) – by saying: - “ that you’re really not into drums without the music” . … Then how do you educate your students and share your drumming skills with them ? Cause if you do that you (without Doubt by us all) as a Fine Jazz Drummer, may not necessarily be a Fine Jazz Drumming Instructor? …. No offence.

 

[jeepers]

As mentioned before, this is a fruitless debate. There will always be disagreements on such topics. Indeed, it is a dumb comparison.

And I don't see why Blofeld, or his comments rather, are drawing so much flak. Is being honest and straightforward a crime? I'm not saying I agree with his words entirely, but some of his comments have been pretty spot on. If you're not comfortable with his directness, then man I feel sad for you. At least he's genuine and gives you things straight up, rather than beat around the bloody bush and backstab you later.

No malice intended, $0.02 worth.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

That's a good one Jeepers, about Back-Stabbing .. we all read that already.

 

[blurred]

i think eric, u should lock the thread.
and i also think frank, u should leave this forum like u said so before.

 

[Blofeld]

Please lah....I cannot imagine you still cannot get my point.

Yes the language and basic essentials of drumset (notice I say drumset and not drums(because the word drums and drumming covers a much wider field than just your typical Tama set)...are pretty standard if you look at it from a beginner's perspective. No matter what genre you are into, you have to work at your fundamentals...ie., the rudiments, stroke control, stick control, coordination, etc etc...this is what you are talking about when you say drumming talk..no? A lot of the stuff you do is a matter of muscle memory that you blend into your memory of what the music demands.

I choose not to focus on this area of drumming because ..1) You get this technique stuff in almost every drum workshop you attend and 2) I expect people who attend a jazz drumming workshop would at least have attained a certain level of knowledge and proficiency, otherwise sure catch no balls.

If a drummer has no interest or liking for jazz as a musical genre, then why bother in the first place? If a drummer has never listened much to jazz how would he begin to appreciate what lies ahead?

You may wonder why I adopt this approach.

Like many drummers, I have been playing pop, rock and such for many years...but when I got sucked into jazz, the whole experience was very different. I could do the basic stuff but I just cannot play the music as jazz musos would expect me too. Both Tama Goh and Louis were very helpful and I also spent some weeks at the Jamie Aebersold Jazz Camps stateside (where I was blur most of the time). Like many drummers, I thought it was only a matter of technique and independence....how wrong I was.

When I was struggling with the original Thomson Jazz Combo more than 10 years ago...I was fortunate to come under the tutelage of (not a drummer) a great jazz pianist (Jeremy) and a bassist( Brian Benson). It was a watershed experience for me...like having a good crap after being constipated for 3 weeks !! I am not saying for one moment that I became an expert after that ...but at least now I know what to look for when I hear jazz or play jazz.

Talk to all the other accomplished local jazz drummers and most will tell you the same thing...Audrey had her Berklee experience...Tama his stint with Jeremy, and Boon Gee his residency at Southbridge.

No, Eric..it's not just about drumming. It's very much about the music.

 

[Blofeld]

Eric, It's good to see you participating in this discussion. This is what I mean by a healthy discourse..no insults..no ad hominens..just an honest exchange of views which may not be in agreement.

I see where you are coming from and your anxiety to solve the technical problems of jazz drumming that seem to puzzle many drummers. But I assure you..there is no huge secret..and certainly jazz drummers are not ..I repeat..not technically superior to his equivalent counterparts in other genres.

I have already expended enough hot air and bandwidth here trying to explain..But if you are genuinely interested to hear what I have to say, so come down to Tanglin CC one Sunday...say an hour before the jam starts. I will be pleased to buy you a coffee and talk about it.

Meanwhile don't think I am trying to knock anyone here...I have always said to each his own...and I am not trying to promote anything here that has not been talked about already.

 

[Blofeld]

Why on earth should Eric lock up this thread?

We have not had such an open and candid exchange here for a long long time....or are you insecure about expressing yourself ?

And why should I leave now that I am having so much fun? Aren't you having fun bro?

I don't know what problem you have with me - dude, but it was you who displayed uncalled for hostility..after enjoying my hospitality extended unquestioningly at your request.

Perhaps you should search your inner feelings..I am not your problem.

i think eric, u should lock the thread.
and i also think frank, u should leave this forum like u said so before.

 

[Blofeld]

Sorry...I got into this thread late and may have missed out the earlier posts. But if we are in agreement here, all the more the points should be reinforced because most DXS members are only into the drums and not enough into the music.

wasn't that what i was trying to put across to everyone on my previous post? why are you repeating what i said before?

 

[bryanlim]

anyway i guess respect is the word. =)

 

[xenOgenesis]

no don't lock up the thread =.=
anyway, drums with music and theory are both equally important, yeah?
its like, a practical drummer has a limit when he/she only plays with the music but without learning the basics in theory.

likewise, people who had attended theory classes but without experience with the music can't play well either. i've known people who attended music schools (a good one also) for 2 years, but can't play a decent roll or feel the music when he jams with other instrument players.

all in all, its none of those philosophy in drumming or whatsoever...we're all musicians. feeling the music is most important, learning the techniques to do it correctly is equally important also...

hope this is right. haha

and its not a fruitless debate =.= i find it fun to discuss stuffs like these as well

 

[Blofeld]

You're right.

Drum theory, technique and skills are as important as the musicality part of it..it's an entire package. What I am saying is that most DXS discussions so far has been concentrating on theory, technique and chops...at the expense of the music.

Why? Because it is often easier to focus on the technique... because that's where drum teachers earn their money... and after all it's much easier to bang away at the drums than to worry about blending with other musicians and learning a few hundred songs.

But then again, without understanding the "theory" and fundamentals of drumming and without attaining a certain level of skill, a drummer will not be able to play in wide range of musical situations required of a professional.

Conversely I have come across many drummers with sound technique and impressive chops who would would find it hard to get called for session work.

There's a lot of good paying live music gigs on around Singapore these days..how come the the top 50 percent of gigs are almost rotated amongst a handful of drummers ?

Perhaps DXS members should hang out more often with working musicians (other than fellow drummers) and find out what musicians want from their drummers.

 

[mel80]

It sometimes does bother me that most of the talk is about chops, technique etc. What about learning how to use the ears to play and compliment the music?

Like what some have already mentioned, techniques and musicality come together as a package. A drummer is just a drummer with only techniques and chops. What makes a musician is a drummer who understands the music and can play to compliment it.

I must also say that although most of the talk around here is about techniques and chops, it is not accurate to assume that everyone is like that. Everyone has to start somewhere and perhaps, it is easier for the younger ones to start on the techniques first? We have had working drummers like Audrey, Boon Gee and Brandon coming in to touch on topics such as how they approach their music. They brought in their own musicians to show us how they play together with the guitarist etc. Audrey even showed us that singing along to the songs helps a drummer understand the music better!

Personally, I'm more into the arrangement and song writing part of things. I want to see more of such discussions/sharing going on too. But then again, it takes time for things to grow and mature. DXS is still very young here and we of course would like to eventually grow and develop a more holistic approach. It all takes time.

 

[FREEKILL9566]

The superior drummer can do both.

Cheers,
WWH

 

[Blofeld]

A superior drummer can do both....? That's a no brainer !

What we are talking about here is the average drummer who must also balance between knowing drums and knowing music.

 

[Vaiyen]

Blofeld: we understand your concern, but go easy on the kids, ya?
I'm sure when u were young, u were chasing chops too.
it's all part of the musical maturing process.

 

[USADRUMMER]

**deleted**

 

[Blofeld]

hahaha..you go Bruce !!

Couldn't have put it any better meself and certainly without the same degree of benevolent expression !!

Welcome to the party !

 

[Blofeld]

Go easy ? Heck I have been wearing such thick velvet gloves until my hands are beginning to itch !! "Concern" is not the word and I don't think you understand. It's quite amazing many do not even fully understand the English language here, let alone the language of jazz or music in general ! Can vomit blood one !!

Blofeld: we understand your concern, but go easy on the kids, ya?
I'm sure when u were young, u were chasing chops too.
it's all part of the musical maturing process.