a dumb comparison

[FREEKILL9566]

A superior drummer can do both....? That's a no brainer !

What we are talking about here is the average drummer who must also balance between knowing drums and knowing music.

Woah chill dude, just making a joke. Well, in my opinion, it's like comparing apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Jazz and metal both require lots of techniques, they're almost equally hard to learn. But you can't say, one who can play jazz is better than one who can play metal. That's giving a biased remark.

Cheers,
WWH

 

[USADRUMMER]

**deleted**

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

I think this is a very fruitful discussion. As can be seen here.....Drumming is easy to play -and indeed very difficult to Master....look at all the response here.

My Opinion is: - Truly drumming Metal/Rock is different in certain ways as compared to Jazz Drumming (I mean yes we all use Rudiments) - but the Hands Techniques Used will be different....as Rock/Metal requires lots of Energy In Playing & the Feel is different......it's true isn't it.

While most of the Techniques are applicable from Jazz to Rock/Metak or vice versal - There will indeed be some differences somewhere eg...expediting the Strokes....probably that's why Stick-Control is not that easy as it seems.

I do use a lot of finger-works in expediting my strokes most of the time due to Jazz ...and as I have just started out in Rock-Music, I was told my Drumming is not Solid enough (THis is true - I heard from the recordings) ... only later then did I find out that - - It is better for me to use More-Wrists-Works then Finger-Works when I played....Rock just have to be louder...and as I am not used to it - I have to practice playing with my Wrists nowadays, while I still have to apply using fingers when I'm doing Jazz numbers - - all these is good for me - - - but I'm still learning and trying to be more versatile here.....now - sometimes I play too loudly in Jazz, and sometimes too softly in Rock still - - - I have to adapt and try my best.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Eric, It's good to see you participating in this discussion. This is what I mean by a healthy discourse..no insults..no ad hominens..just an honest exchange of views which may not be in agreement.

I have already expended enough hot air and bandwidth here trying to explain..But if you are genuinely interested to hear what I have to say, so come down to Tanglin CC one Sunday...say an hour before the jam starts. I will be pleased to buy you a coffee and talk about it.

Frank, Freddy told me he is going to TCC yesterday morning for your Afternoon Jazz Jam yesterday, wonder was our Bassists there too maybe I guess? Unfortunately my cousin residing in UK came back to Singapore for a week holiday - so I had to be with them...thanks for the invitation.

 

[Blofeld]

Frank, Freddy told me he is going to TCC yesterday morning for your Afternoon Jazz Jam yesterday, wonder was our Bassists there too maybe I guess? Unfortunately my cousin residing in UK came back to Singapore for a week holiday - so I had to be with them...thanks for the invitation.

Hahaha..I just realised that you have been playing some jazz with Freddy..hopefully Freddy's most stirling quality may have rubbed off on you, i.e,..his stubborn perseverence and his ability to take a lot of heckling while trying to learn his craft. Freddy tells me he is following this discussion with interest and he is wondering how come I am so untypically civilised and diplomatic in my approach.

Well, I guess I have to be gentle here... like handling babies. The real world is somewhat more unforgiving but this forum is, in many ways, not quite the real world.

One thing you have really missed so far in your search for jazz knowledge are the many informal discussions that we as drummers have with other jazz musicians...and also the efforts that aspiring jazz drummers put in to understand and learn the culture and language of jazz, without which you are just trying to keep time and little else. I have tend to focus more on the musicality aspects rather than the drumming techniques...I assume you are working out your techniques and your motor skills with your drum teacher or drum school you are with.

That seems to be the weak point of most drummers coming to grips with jazz.

Come down earlier one Sunday with Freddy...and I will show you what i mean.

 

[Blofeld]

The thread is titled " A Dumb Comparison"..but the discussion it generated is not so dumb after all. I doubt if there is another thread that has seen so many opinions aired so forcefully, and making people come out to express themselves. This is very healthy, IMHO. Perhaps we are beginning to see this forum show some sign of maturity at last ?

I think this is a very fruitful discussion. As can be seen here.....Drumming is easy to play -and indeed very difficult to Master....look at all the response here.

 

[Vaiyen]

yup, but it is disappointing that maturity has not come from the ones I expect.
Kudos to those who have shown respect for opposing views and not resorted to cheap personal innuendos - that is the mark of maturity.

 

[USADRUMMER]

**deleted**

 

[Blofeld]

It all depends from which side of the divide you are talking.

The best respect one can show for views that differ from one's own is to stand up and put your point forward, not hide in the shadows and watch or take the odd pot shot.

To some, maturity is to be able to keep turning the other cheek. To others, it means standing one's ground, forcefully if needs be..and to have the courage to call a spade a spade....and not to take any criticisms, implied or explicit - too personally.

If one cannot stand one's ground in a forum like this where there are no real physical threats...how does one stand up in the real world where you have to look at your adversary in the eye..or back off ?

yup, but it is disappointing that maturity has not come from the ones I expect.
Kudos to those who have shown respect for opposing views and not resorted to cheap personal innuendos - that is the mark of maturity.

 

[xenOgenesis]

The thread is titled " A Dumb Comparison"..but the discussion it generated is not so dumb after all. I doubt if there is another thread that has seen so many opinions aired so forcefully, and making people come out to express themselves. This is very healthy, IMHO. Perhaps we are beginning to see this forum show some sign of maturity at last ?

I think this is a very fruitful discussion. As can be seen here.....Drumming is easy to play -and indeed very difficult to Master....look at all the response here.

well i'm glad that the thread turned out this way. haha this is one hell of a healthy discussion on music.

 

[Blofeld]

[/QUOTE]
well i'm glad that the thread turned out this way. haha this is one hell of a healthy discussion on music.[/QUOTE]

The good news is the sheer volume of discussions your original post generated, hot air and pearls of wisdom notwithstanding

...but the bad news is that only a few members are actually participating....is this subject too cheem for most people in this forum ? Are the majority of forum members only interested in discussing their favourite rock stars, their dream drum sets and comparing who got what cymbals?

Hmmmm...I wonder ...

 

[xenOgenesis]

different people have got different mindsets and perspectives towards drumming. some do it for music, some prefer to learn just the instrument and without music, some prefer to do it as a percussionist, some do it as a hobby, for a dream, for themselves or just following what people do.

well we can't blame them, neither can we downgrade their social status in drumming. afterall, everyone is different

 

[mel80]

Maybe some people are simply more passive? So they don't come forth to share thoughts as much? I still feel that there is some form of reservedness and a feeling of "I don't want to share/reveal my experiences and secrets in drumming" around here...

I don't know. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Frank - Yes, I’m still learning (Plenty Of Compling Exercises) and there is still way too plenty for me to catch up. Rehersing with Freddy in the Band had taught me (that I’ve to know the song/melody inside my head) – this way I will be able to –play better.

Freddy gave me 2-Text on Jazz and Music (very very good indeed) – These books teaches us – How to think and remain positive, about conquering fear, about not being afraid to make mistakes to enhance oneself in the playing of Music in General and Jazz….this really helps me a lot….It’s about the mindset

Freddy taught me a lot in Jazz (not as in how I play the drums technically) – but about the approach as a Jazz Band altogether. And, of course, Alvin my drum Instructor had been the main contributor in my drumming,

And you Frank, of course I must thank – The 1st-ever Jazz CD Songs I’ve ever heard was given by you to me…..but I still cannot play the song in the CD which I love most …. “ Bemsha Swing” by Jeff Hamilton (don’t know if I got the title spelled correctly here)?

PS: - Why is it always so much easier to play Fast than very very slow in Jazz ?

 

[Blofeld]

F
PS: - Why is it always so much easier to play Fast than very very slow in Jazz ?

For most people starting in jazz, there is a "comfort zone" tempo (120 - 160 bpm) where they feel most at ease, and tend to gravitate to unless otherwised pushed. Going faster or slower requires more control..that's why it is more difficult.

It's not true that going faster is harder than doing it very slow... try "Cherokee" at 260bpm...see how long you can keep up.

 

[xenOgenesis]

Maybe some people are simply more passive? So they don't come forth to share thoughts as much? I still feel that there is some form of reservedness and a feeling of "I don't want to share/reveal my experiences and secrets in drumming" around here...

I don't know. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

i'll be honest and share my drum history then. lol

i've never been taught in a formal school, except for half a year with a 2 hr lesson per week under my drum sensei from church.
after the the 6th month period, i practiced my drums thru air drumming and jamming sessions with my band.

now i am here ((((((((((

 

[blueman]

one more question, If one is into rock/pop and the likes and have been playing drums for 8 - 10 years, and would like to improve himself as a drummer.

Would it be appropiate for him to pick up and learn jazz as its percieved as "harder" and thinking it will improve his rock playing? Or would he just continueing his route without touching on jazz?

Sorry for the dumb question. ahaha.

 

[Blofeld]

Don't think it was a dumb question.

As a drummer in any genre, you can never quite perfect the pure technique aspects of your playing..that is always an ongoing quests. But as Vinnie Colaiuta(I think) once said...."technique alone can only get you so far..then where do you do from there?"

If you play pop, rock, blues and such, you may find that up to a point, your technique becomes less important than your overall musicality...when a drummer has to cease being just a drummer and become one of the band's musicians. In any case I am sure that at some point in your progress (you may or may not have reached thatyet) you may find that you can hardly apply all the chops that you have learnt or practised into the song at hand...not without completely overplaying and ruining it.

Learning jazz (providing you know what you are getting into)can only benefit any drummer from any genre. In jazz, you become a full fledged musician from the outset...an integral part of the music that cannot be replaced by a drum machine program. You are no longer just the time keeper...but the heart of the band, driving its mood, its changes and creating the textures with your fellow musos. You are also constantly improvising, calling upon instinctively all the techniques and chops you have in your data bank. You have to solo on the melody like all the other musos..no where to hide.

I am not saying for a moment that Jazz is superior but it certainly requires a different approach and can be intimidating for a newbie. But like any discipline, it can be learnt and eventually mastered.

Whether it makes you a better pop/rock/blues drummer depends on how you apply what you have learnt to the work in hand.

An interesting analogy betweeen jazz and pop/rock/blues is that jazz is more like water polo, while pop/rock/blues is more like a swimming race. If I may say so..high speed metal is the 50m sprint !!

All requires an ability to swim and move well in water. All are done in water. But not ever good swimmer can play water polo well..and great water polo players may never win swim races. (Alamak..I have been watching too much Olympics !)

 

[xenOgenesis]

that is one post that i'll have to agree on, blofeld. haha
yeah its true. playing with music in a band and understanding your band members, thats important and an integral part in everyones musical journey.

 

[myner]

as rodney holmes said on modern drummer festival 2005, "don't let anyone put you in a box, listen to what you want to listen, play what you wanna play..."

Personally, i feel that no matter what genre you're playing just play what you feel suits the riff. Pay your respect to the person who wrote or had the inspiration for that phrase and ask his/her opinion on what they had in mind.

About jazz drummers or metal drummers being better.
I don't see a pipelayer and a policeman fighting to see who is better.
the word "better" always brings about a discussion on preference.
its kinda impossible to change someone's preference. seriously.

Preference is all about you.
I can't ask you to say that you like an orange more than an apple when you don't feel like it.

oh yeah one more thing. I enjoy moshing at metal gigs as much as i would at a symphonic concert recital.

before i get shot at by anyone. I know i'm young, and don't really know it all.
Thats why i'm here at this forum. trying to learn.
Learning never stops. even when you die, you learn how death feels.