What do we want but can't get?
- Thread starter gjkung
- Start date
Whitestrat
New member
That's why I think the Fender Princeton Recording Amp is something worth looking at. They CLAIM that their power attenuator does NOT affect tone. Then again, Swee Lee doesn't have it in, so we can't try. Too bad. But I think it'll be worth a go.
alright great input from everyone,
but let's stay on track a little more.
Wattage/volume is not directly related to tone quality, but as gargame said, most of the tones he likes at bedroom level comes from a powerful head.
So why can't we get that same tone with a smaller poweramp?
Btw do remember that many boutique brand names are attempting to push the headroom threshold, to maintain better clarity at high volumes, or at least so is the advertising trend.
so we relevance to the poll, the question is, what is the demand? Affordability or price-regardless quest for tone. Do we have to buy a big stack just to savour the bedroom tone it offers? It's not always a viable solution to all bedroom players with not much to spend.
but let's stay on track a little more.
Wattage/volume is not directly related to tone quality, but as gargame said, most of the tones he likes at bedroom level comes from a powerful head.
So why can't we get that same tone with a smaller poweramp?
Btw do remember that many boutique brand names are attempting to push the headroom threshold, to maintain better clarity at high volumes, or at least so is the advertising trend.
so we relevance to the poll, the question is, what is the demand? Affordability or price-regardless quest for tone. Do we have to buy a big stack just to savour the bedroom tone it offers? It's not always a viable solution to all bedroom players with not much to spend.
with relation to whitestrat's point about speaker deflection, that is very true.
Instrument speakers are different from hi fi speakers, they have a wide and short magnetic cone, whilst hi-fi speakers have very long and narrow one.
in home stereo sound systems:
The magnetic field is long and even, consistent throughout the entire length of the cone's vibration, this makes for lower compression, higher clarity and consistency.
in guitar amp speakers:
THe magnetic field is short, so at high volumes, cones exit the intense center of the magnetic field, hence causing damping. This is the speaker cranking part, where you achieve a compressed tone that is naturally punchier and more impactful.
This which i can observe in my 15 watt peavey's speaker, I experimented with it personally when I read up on it. It is true, and my ears almost died, so it's impossible to crank a 412 at home really, you need a hall as stated before.
Instrument speakers are different from hi fi speakers, they have a wide and short magnetic cone, whilst hi-fi speakers have very long and narrow one.
in home stereo sound systems:
The magnetic field is long and even, consistent throughout the entire length of the cone's vibration, this makes for lower compression, higher clarity and consistency.
in guitar amp speakers:
THe magnetic field is short, so at high volumes, cones exit the intense center of the magnetic field, hence causing damping. This is the speaker cranking part, where you achieve a compressed tone that is naturally punchier and more impactful.
This which i can observe in my 15 watt peavey's speaker, I experimented with it personally when I read up on it. It is true, and my ears almost died, so it's impossible to crank a 412 at home really, you need a hall as stated before.
subversion
Moderator
when it comes to the favoured tone, sometimes there is no alternative than to embrace the real manifestation. is there a scaled-down version of Marshall's JCM voicing (as an example, of course...)? hope there isn't a need to enter the emulation domain...
gsonique
New member
simple more $$$ more tone !! :lol:
If 'power' can be achieved with smaller amps then touring/recording musicians will just switch for cost saving aye !!
That said, a small 'tube' 5 watt can delivery for live/recording with proper mic up but the stage 'feel' factor is not there .... :wink:
I got 150watt with 4x12 Fane speakers at home and the 'feel' factor is ridiculous ....my wife ones called from the void deck of the opposite block to complain i am playin too loud .....see thats POWER !
Small venues can enjoy samll'ish amps if placed correctly and needs to cut through the drums... given without mic'in.
If 'power' can be achieved with smaller amps then touring/recording musicians will just switch for cost saving aye !!
That said, a small 'tube' 5 watt can delivery for live/recording with proper mic up but the stage 'feel' factor is not there .... :wink:
I got 150watt with 4x12 Fane speakers at home and the 'feel' factor is ridiculous ....my wife ones called from the void deck of the opposite block to complain i am playin too loud .....see thats POWER !
Small venues can enjoy samll'ish amps if placed correctly and needs to cut through the drums... given without mic'in.
Whitestrat
New member
Actually, there is another interesting option. I once ran an LC15R thru a ncie 4x10 cab. Wow...
The sound totally opened up. The thing that was killing the tone for the LC15R was mainly the built-in speaker.
So, who says you can't run a small wattage head thru a nice big cab?
Whitestrat
New member
You mean you could actually hear the phone ring??? 8O :lol:
thor666
New member
I'm no technical guy, but here goes my 3 cents:
1. Attenuators affect tone. In fact, from my understanding, every single additional item you introduce to the amp, say a tonestack, more caps, resistors, all affect tone from a technical perspective. Whether that change is significant/bad from a practical audible perspective is another issue. It does depend a lot on the amp design and the components used.
2. Wattage tends to be related to loudness. I haven't really seen any amp makers design hundred watters with such low efficiency that they output the maximum of a practice amp. Strangely, neither of the 2 concepts matter imo. What matters for players looking for metal tones, or special tones, is either the headroom or the preamp circuit design of the amp. A high headroom amp can take in more gain before saturation. A special preamp circuit yields a special tone when used correctly (see the Trainwreck amps with their "what seems to be a wrong design" circuit).
There're very few amp makers making high headroom design amps that are actually physically small. And I'm not even talking about tube amps. Off the top of my head, only the Class D PowerBlock comes into mind.
3. Speakers and cabs are very important. Ask any audiophile and they'll probably agree that speakers should be a priority investment.
4. At the end of the day, I think we should look at GOOD amp designs, rather than physical size or wattage for references. I'm no expert, but my guess as to why metal players need to use all that big amps is simply because the manufacturers know that big sized amps are psychologically synonymous with the metal genre. I kind of suspect that a small amp head will turn a lot of metal players off rather than being an attractive solution.
5. There're just very few boutique style solidstates to make a fair comparison with tube amps.
1. Attenuators affect tone. In fact, from my understanding, every single additional item you introduce to the amp, say a tonestack, more caps, resistors, all affect tone from a technical perspective. Whether that change is significant/bad from a practical audible perspective is another issue. It does depend a lot on the amp design and the components used.
2. Wattage tends to be related to loudness. I haven't really seen any amp makers design hundred watters with such low efficiency that they output the maximum of a practice amp. Strangely, neither of the 2 concepts matter imo. What matters for players looking for metal tones, or special tones, is either the headroom or the preamp circuit design of the amp. A high headroom amp can take in more gain before saturation. A special preamp circuit yields a special tone when used correctly (see the Trainwreck amps with their "what seems to be a wrong design" circuit).
There're very few amp makers making high headroom design amps that are actually physically small. And I'm not even talking about tube amps. Off the top of my head, only the Class D PowerBlock comes into mind.
3. Speakers and cabs are very important. Ask any audiophile and they'll probably agree that speakers should be a priority investment.
4. At the end of the day, I think we should look at GOOD amp designs, rather than physical size or wattage for references. I'm no expert, but my guess as to why metal players need to use all that big amps is simply because the manufacturers know that big sized amps are psychologically synonymous with the metal genre. I kind of suspect that a small amp head will turn a lot of metal players off rather than being an attractive solution.
5. There're just very few boutique style solidstates to make a fair comparison with tube amps.
gsonique
New member
True ...wattage has more to do with 'power' 'feel' than volume !
A nice read here
Yes! true that heavy playas have 'kill em all and let God sort em out' kind of approach to tone .... so the preamp is driven with added gain stages sent to x4 tube power section where only a high output pick up equipped guitar is essential.
A nice read here
Yes! true that heavy playas have 'kill em all and let God sort em out' kind of approach to tone .... so the preamp is driven with added gain stages sent to x4 tube power section where only a high output pick up equipped guitar is essential.
Very good information on gain effects pedals there.from qsonique's link: http://users.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/ampbasic.htm
hehe I read this quite sometime ago and forgot where I found it, thanks a lot for bringing it up.
hehe I read this quite sometime ago and forgot where I found it, thanks a lot for bringing it up.
unsane
Member
and in addition to the power section being driven hard, cranking a 4x12 up gets you the whole slipperman defined speaker excursion/cab resonance thing which does make a huge difference.
somehow i was never a fan of power tube saturation though,which is why i use all solid state power amps.
somehow i was never a fan of power tube saturation though,which is why i use all solid state power amps.
