What do we want but can't get?

[gjkung]

thanks guitarsan and gargamelesp for clearing up the myth.(I know it's been done over and over again but we need a reminder once in a while.)

But there is still another issue, where can I find an affordable amp with solo boost/double master, parallel and serial loops, midi-controllable etc...while staying analog?

All these seems to be a matter of design, and should not add significantly to the cost. however, yet I see them only with big amps.

It seems that in the process of obtaining good features, we have to spend on wattage and also other stuff related to a stack/rack setup. It's not about the volume really...

 

[gargamelesp]

hey there! yes, its always good to have a healthy discussion on topics such as these!

gkjung: im not sure what you mean when you say the "cost" goes to its full output performance. for instance, you can get a peavey valve-king or even a jsx or a similar non-boutique tube amp for say between 1-2k. However, on the other hand, botique companies are charging 2-3x the same amount for amps of the same wattage. perhaps the issue here is not with the extra wattage but more of amp design and build

i used to sit right next to my amp when playing - the head is only an arms reach away. however, ive started to realise that the cab sounds less boomy and has more treble detail when i sit around 3-4 meters. i think that would be the same for every amp - be it a small or large one as the sound is not being projected to your feet

again, i feel that the price of amps are high not because the wattage is high, im sure you know of examples of both extremes where small wattage amps cost a bomb whilst larger ones may be cheaper.

im not sure what you mean by sayin "where can I find an affordable amp with solo boost/double master, parallel and serial loops, midi-controllable etc...while staying analog"? plenty of high end amps offer this features and i certainly wouldnt term them as digital. perhaps you could explain yourself a little more? but yes you are right, these features are found mainly on larger amps

i love your last point -- its what i have been trying to convince people about. get an amp that has the features and tone (at low levels) that you like and dont worry about the amp being too loud, since loud dosent always = nice tone

sub: if you are interested in getting the soldano, i could hook you up with the same dealer which i got my engl from. perhaps if the price is good, we shall see it in your arsenal soon too !

ps.. about the diezel, its still a distant dream away. im very happy with my current setup, but the gas monster inside us never knows when to say enough is enough!

 

[gjkung]

lol all hail long posts. the JSX costs nearly 5k for a half stack though, like 4.5k.

Anyway what i meant was, most of the smaller amps have a tendency to be cookie-cutteresque, giving only a small scope of tones, and not allowing very attractive tone-editing solutions.

Why do the amp builders not throw in loops and the likes, and definitely more transparency in the tone circuit? To be honest, just playing randomly alone at home, I am satisfied with the roughly-there tones of my Podxt Live, or my friend's roland cube.

But when i play with another guitarist, then I add in the drums, then I put some delay, it's quite uninspiring. personally, what I look for is not the oustanding features, but the small subtle features that make an amp "boutique-sounding".

With regards to cost going to output, certainly the poweramp is a very expensive part of the amp am I right? I had the impression that the poweramp is the most important part of a tube amp, hence the remarkable prices. Will small poweramps yield lower prices, and hence give us affordable good tube tone without the costly high wattage we don't use.

if not, i think the discussion on cost vs tone is almost concluded?
:?

now about the one extra string...

 

[firestormee]

i want paul gilberts long hair.

 

[unsane]

i always thought the whole cranked low wattage thing missed one key factor..the speakers. you can crank a little 1x8, 1x12 or whatever as loud as you want but its not going to move as much air or have the resonance of a solid 4x12 cab..

 

[Weiht]

Yup speakers, n dif cabs setup also has a part to play. In fact, some went as far to say that the dif grille cloth also makes a dif. Some ppl like the basket woven marshall cabs more than others with same speakers.

 

[gjkung]

yeap good point raised, though I did mention it previously.

Stack owners, how significantly does the 412 cab strength contribute to tone. Even then, is there actually a demand for higher quality cabs to match with boutique with heads?

Upon inquiry with a french dealer, I realised that cabs are hell to ship, which turned me off my initial purchase as I can't get a matching cab nor try it out to see which fits. Shipping for a cab from europe is as expensive as the cab itself.

without good cabs, will heads still express sufficiently to manifest sought after tonal character?

 

[thor666]

If you use a bad/unsuitable cab, needless to say, you're going to spoil your amp tone.

Cabs and speakers are very troublesome to get here. Ceriatone, eBay, Davis, Sweelee, Ranking Sports, Citymusic, Malaysia cab makers are all viable options for cabs and speakers.

 

[quraish]

Mesa Boogie, Diezel licensed distributor/dealer?

 

[aero_91]

i want elitists and more gibson custom shop here.

 

[Whitestrat]

Ditto. It's a myth perpectuated in this forum that many people seem to follow. Personally, my 40W class-A tubey has no problem being "too loud". I tweaked both my amp's volume (pre-amp) and master volume (power stage) to a certain sweetspot range (recommended by Randolf), and I can get very nice tube tone at acceptable apartment volume.

It's funny how people keep associating wattage with loudness. That's not a myth. It's just misguided. :roll:

You just mentioned it yourself. It's a 40W Class A amp. You know what Class A amps are meant for? It's for good tonal output, but gives the least amplified gain compared to a class AB, B, C or D amp. Loudness is measured in decibels. Equate your volume 5 decibel level to that of a 40W Class AB at volume 5, and you get 2 completely different things. 8O

And, re-read that article. It says that it's madness to expect even a 5W amp to give tolerable apartment volumes when fully cranked. I agree. But not many of us want to run it fully cranked isn't it? Isn't it dumb to spend $5k on an amp that plays only at level 2 at home? :roll:

Also, There's something else he mentioned about attenuators. erm... ok. Attenuators don't affect tone? Lets dissect tone here. What is it? Is it the output quality you get at the end of the amplifying cycle? I'd assume yes. Then, what's important after that is the speaker isn't it? If you attenuate the levels, you will NEVER achieve full speaker deflection in that cabinet, no matter if your power stage is cranked fully up. No way. Don't confuse Tube Amp output and Speaker Output. You nees BOTH to get what you want. One alone is not enough. :?

That again brings us to the point of acceptable levels. A 15W solid state amp can have a DECENT tone for bedroom levels because the solid state ICs don't need to be pushed to saturation points. But to get a decent tone fom a 15W tube amp? The tube need to be really hot. And that's not possible at bedroom levels. You have wastage.

Think about it... :wink:

 

[gargamelesp]

hi there, i indeed have thouht about it, and have went through quite a few amps so ill share from experience about what i personally feel about the whole wattage issue but first i would like to clarify a few things you mentioned


1. But not many of us want to run it fully cranked isn't it? Isn't it dumb to spend $5k on an amp that plays only at level 2 at home?

From what is going around here, the general concensus is that people WANT to run their amps cranked ( for whatever reasons ), but they CANT cause its too loud. Secondly, i can only say the money you spend is only justifiable by the spender. I have went through amps ranging from a 20w solid state to a 40w tube amp to a 150w tube amp and at the SAME volumes which i am playing, i greatly prefer the tone of the 150watter. Of course i am not saying that big watts = nice tone or vice versa. I feel i justify my spending on a big amp because I like how it sounds It dosent bother me one bit that there is so much volume untapped. In every other tube amp 20w and above, just as much volume will not be utilised.

Then again you may ask, why not get the cheaper 20watter instead of a monster? A simple answer which i have been TRYING to put accross is that if you like the tones coming from the 20watter, perfect! You dont have to spend a bomb retubing and paying (generally) more for a larger amp. However, i have tried an extensive array of amps, and *sadly* speaking, i only like the tones coming from 100 or 150watters, so thats where i am headed.

3. A 15W solid state amp can have a DECENT tone for bedroom levels because the solid state ICs don't need to be pushed to saturation points. But to get a decent tone fom a 15W tube amp? The tube need to be really hot.

wow... i think i disagree the most on this tone. I think you are trying to say that at low levels the 15w solid state will sound better than the 15w tube amp?? 8O AND that in order to get a good tube amp sound it has to be cranked???? all i can say in response to that is to try as many tube amps as you can at low levels and see if the tone is that undesirable as you purport it to be.

ps... if big wattage amps are so "bad", how do recording artists record their studio albums then? i highly doubt that they crank their amps in the studio. they either use attenuators OR they just simply play at reasonable volumes. you would notice that a vast majority use monsters when recording too.

 

[ShredCow]

Gee... i thought pedals were made to emulate that cranked tube amp tone but at room volume?

 

[JE]

attenuation is, after all, a last resort of things. look at it this way: i'd rather have pre and power stage distortion without speaker break-up as compared to preamp distortion ONLY.
truth is, i have a 1x12 cab, which i run very heavily attenuated singal into it (say.. 0.01W). i know it will sound much nicer if the attenuator is out of the way. but hey, i don't have too much choice either. i'm guessing that even after a year or two of playing it like this, the speaker might not even break-in. :?

attenuator changes tone: even if we forget about the speaker stuff, it is still true in most cases. resistive attenuators (that is the vast majority) have.. em.. resistors. which by their nature filters off high frequencies. we percieve this as a lost of sparkle/presence/life/blah blah. one can place a treble-pass cap to recover these higher frequencies, and depending on the value you use, it can be used as a speaker level tone control (think EQ after the amp).

why not we just treat attenuator as ear plugs for everyone? it changes tone, yes. but it keeps everyone else happy, and keep yourself safe (from angry mobs of cos :lol: )

 

[Whitestrat]

ps... if big wattage amps are so "bad", how do recording artists record their studio albums then? i highly doubt that they crank their amps in the studio. they either use attenuators OR they just simply play at reasonable volumes. you would notice that a vast majority use monsters when recording too.

Uh... yes they do. The amps are NOT in the same studio unless they're recording live, and even then, studio levels are definately louder than a bedroom. SRV used to play his Vibroverb at MAX volume. Brian May does that too. Most of them do in fact.

When recording "Flying In A Blue Dream", Joe Satriani said there was no secret. His amp was just recorded VERY LOUD...

Most recording artists record their amps in a different room, using a monitor for their own hearing.

AND that in order to get a good tube amp sound it has to be cranked???? all i can say in response to that is to try as many tube amps as you can at low levels and see if the tone is that undesirable as you purport it to be.

Uh... yes, I already have in my 2 decades of playing. And I still say they sound bad when played softly. Try playing it loud in a large hall, and tell me whether or not you still sound the same at home.

However, i have tried an extensive array of amps, and *sadly* speaking, i only like the tones coming from 100 or 150watters, so thats where i am headed.

Good for you! *applause*

At the end of the day, we can argue till the cows come home. I have given you FACTS, you have given me preferences. I agree whole-heartedly that if that's what you like, then go for it. Please. But don't forget you said it yourself. You only like the tones coming from the heavy watters.

There's another reason I could explain to you why you like them so much, but I really cannot remember my electronics on amplifiers, and I don't have the time to go think that deeply, but I can tell you, it's not wattage that you're after.

 

[Whitestrat]

Gee... i thought pedals were made to emulate that cranked tube amp tone but at room volume?

Heh... but for some purists, emulation isn't good enough ya? I'm happy with emulation... :lol:

 

[gargamelesp]

at the end of the day.. amps are a personal thing of course

there is no one rule saying smaller is better or bigger is better. one can only hope to have the tone he wants in a small watter instead of a monster, lest the same old questions on "why people play 100watters at home" be asked again. Ans: because i like how it sounds, and if you do, you should too

:wink:

 

[gsonique]

i highly doubt that they crank their amps in the studio. they either use attenuators OR they just simply play at reasonable volumes.

...there are studios equipped with isolated rooms where only the speaker cab is palced ya. An amp doesn't need to be fully cranked to achive its peak and mic type and placement(s) plays the other crucial role in the recording scenario !

What i do is usually bring up my master volume (gate between pre and power) to almost full and then steadily bring up 'volume' of the channel in use followed by pedal drive/volume to desired level. I prefer slight break up on the amp and most dirt/gain via pedal. This gives me control with my guitar volume knob and not bothered switching amp channel or pedal!

 

[ShredCow]

Heh... but for some purists, emulation isn't good enough ya? I'm happy with emulation...

That be the truth.

I tell ya, if I had the dough to buy the amps I liked... and, more importantly, get to play them at a louder-than-room-volume (because i want to FEEL it, not just hear it!) volume... Heck, I'd scrap the pedals!


One reason why the Pros have less pedals... they can afford the volume.


There's something about turning it up. Its more than the sound... its how the sound moves thru the air, makes you play differently, react differently.

 

[Whitestrat]

One reason why the Pros have less pedals... they can afford the volume.

AND a guitar tech to customise their rig for them... heheh...

There's something about turning it up. Its more than the sound... its how the sound moves thru the air, makes you play differently, react differently.

Yeah man... Just can't be done at home...

AND to quote Yngwie Malmsteen: PLAY LOUD!!![/list]