Singapore's Mentality in Sports - Ridiculous?

hello all. i'm new to soft. have read many threads in the forum and i cannot help but say a few things about this particular topic.

i think that singaporeans shouldn't put down the foreign athletes that have joined our national team. regardless of where they were born or raised, most importantly, they are now singaporean and their glory is ours. i can empathise with why some might feel that these "foreign imports" potentially thwart the chances of singaporeans born and bred here to participate in international sporting meets. this is similar to the whole debacle about companies in singapore hiring foreigners for top positions. i think that singaporeans are far too picky and pampered (and this is coming from a singaporean born and bred here her whole life). this point has been raised by other members before me - singaporeans basically are reluctant to give up other career options to pursue one in sports. why swim when you can become an engineer with a stable income? why play table tennis 24/7 and risk not winning any medals when you can become a successful entrepreneur? perhaps picky and pampered are the wrong words to use - more apt ones would perhaps be risk-averse and practical.

if importing foreign talent is the way to go NOW for singaporean to become noticed in the international sporting world, why not? i agree with many of the respondees before me that they actually up the game of singaporeans. instead of puting them down, we should look up to them because right now, they are the best at what they do in singapore. singapore would not be what we are today without ANYTHING foreign. the Economic Development Board spend millions every year to entice foreign companies to set up shop in SG. these foreign companies create jobs for locals. they have ventures with local companies, which result in those companies becoming more successful as they learn from the technically competent foreign company. of course i'm not implying that all foreign companies trump the local ones. This is just an example i'm citing. it's all a cycle imo. and both singapore and the foreign party stand to gain. everyone has something to learn from one another and without foreigners venturing into our shores (and singaporeans venturing overseas), we most probably wouldn't be getting that couple of hundred dollars each everytime lee hsien loong announces the budget.

if you watched the table tennis match between singapore and korea, or the finals against china, you should be able to see that Li Jia Wei and team have put in their very best for singapore. their elation and tears of joy speak a lot about their loyalty and passion for this country, as much as any of us. i congratulate and thank them for their great concerted effort and am extremely proud of them.
 
if you watched the table tennis match between singapore and korea, or the finals against china, you should be able to see that Li Jia Wei and team have put in their very best for singapore. their elation and tears of joy speak a lot about their loyalty and passion for this country, as much as any of us. i congratulate and thank them for their great concerted effort and am extremely proud of them.

Welcome to Soft, Cpyl.

I have watched both matches. And yes, I do agree that they are putting their best.

Then again, athletes who don't put their best for the sport shouldn't play that sport to begin with.
 
There are other sports events Singapore are beginning to make progress in, such as air rifle/pistol shooting. I'm a rifle shooter myself, so I'm kinda of know the local standards of shooting. I know of a few local shooters who are pretty good enough to qualify for olmpics. Hopefully, by 2012, they will be prepared for olympics... :cool:

Speaking of our table tennis team, I think these girls are SINGAPOREANS. They have been training locally for years and they have acquired Singapore citizenship through official means.

Besides, don't forget that Singapore is a country made up of immigrants - which includes the grandparents or great-grandparents of those people here who claim to be the TRUE local born-and-breed Singaporeans.
 
HOWEVER!! All of my ranting can be shut up immediately if Singapore is to enter a team of true and fair singaporeans for the Youth Olympics. If s'pore does that, it would send a clear message that Singaporeans once again should participate for their nation

You seem to be implying that foreign sportsmen are denying locals a chance to represent at competitions? That's definitely not the case. Tim, have you been a sports CCA before?

I'm in a shooting club at my school and we have shooters representing at international youth shooting competition and we win medals quite frequently too. My friend was part of the team which won the bronze medal of the Asean youth shooting C'ships. It is just that such events often go unreported or unnoticed by the general public. :mad:



The point here is: these foreign sportmen are not denying locals a chance to represent at competitions. Participants are chosen based on meritocracy - only the best gets chosen. It is a win-win situation since local sportsmen will benefit from the heightened competition.
 
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Speaking of our table tennis team, I think these girls are SINGAPOREANS. They have been training locally for years and they have acquired Singapore citizenship through official means.

Besides, don't forget that Singapore is a country made up of immigrants - which includes the grandparents or great-grandparents of those people here who claim to be the TRUE local born-and-breed Singaporeans.

Again.. this point is being brought up. Not sure if you read my recent reply, but if you have *shrugs*

You seem to be implying that foreign sportsmen are denying locals a chance to represent at competitions? That's definitely not the case. Tim, have you been a sports CCA before?

I don't see anything in his post that implies that.

Also, can CCA prepare you enough for the biggest sporting event in the world? Can CCA lead you all the way to the World Cup? Are Team Singapore CCA based? No, they are full time national athletes and sportsmen, being paid to train, being paid to win.

The fact remains that the mentality of local citizens is that we never gave ourselves the opportunity to pursue sports training because in our society, everyone is chasing for the paper education, not sports education. We want to excel it all, and we want to excel now. There is barely any programme to nurture the best of our youths to sporting excellence, and concentrate only on that. Honestly, if there is such a thing we are willing to wait 10, 20 or even 30 years for it to bear fruit because we know that we are looking at our own people.

Instead of putting effort, time and finance into looking for solutions to nurture our own youth from the beginning, and address the fears that we have regarding concentrating on sports, we take in what is already there and just put the word "Singapore" on it. Thing is, we COULD have done it. Ang Peng Siong was the world's fastest swimmer at one point of time. I believe Zarinah Zainuddin was placed 14th in the world ranking in badminton (correct me if I am wrong in the last point. My memory is not serving me well).

So WHO is giving up on who now?

There is nothing wrong with foreign based talent if it's done tastefully, and in good portions. Take a look at the Malaysia Cup winning team in the 90s. Abbas Saad, Jang Jung and Douglas Moore were foreigners, but we were proud to have them being in our team because the team STILL look Singapore. We know that majority of the players have something in common to us, hence we support and feel pride in the win.

(I even remembered, when Abbas joked about how the win will make it easy for him to apply PR, a few of us actually got excited about the idea of him considering that, and even asked if, as a PR, will he be able to play for the World Cup qualifiers.)

But to rely a MAJORITY of the efforts on foreign-based talent? That basically takes away the true spirit of what Singapore is: a small country that had overcame some very harsh times to be where it is today. We went through it together, nothing was cookie cutter, so it is disappointing that it is not being adopted in recent times.
 
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Wow I'm always amazed at how knowledgeable softies are when it comes to any topic at all. Ok let's put sports aside for a moment. If let's say, Steve Vai or Eric Johnson become PRs here in Singapore, and either one wins a Grammy award. It's a 1st for Singapore too right? Would we scorn at them and say, they are not true Singaporeans as well? Or will we gladly adopt them into our society?
 
If let's say, Steve Vai or Eric Johnson become PRs here in Singapore, and either one wins a Grammy award. It's a 1st for Singapore too right? Would we scorn at them and say, they are not true Singaporeans as well? Or will we gladly adopt them into our society?

I think you're missing the point.

Sports is a COMPETITION and the Grammies are awards based on POPULARITY.

I wouldnt count Vai & Johnson as true Singaporeans if that ever happens. And I wouldnt scorn them either. These guys have a natural gift as compared to the FTS sportspersons who are brought into Singapore for the sole purpose of winning a medal for the country using our tax $$$ and ... See my earlier post

Vai & Johnson brought to Singapore to win a competition? Get real! Singapore is not where the moneys at! I think theyd prefer to stay where they are for the love of freedom, appreciative public, opportunities, to be who they are, etc.

Oh yeah... Welcome to Soft, Cpyl!
 
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= Vege

I think it really depends on the circumstances behind how they got the PR or citizenship:

1) If they came to Singapore and got PR or citizenship out of choice, and then they won, I will be proud to know that they are in our shores. But I don't see them as a representative of Singapore. They are recognised for their talent

2) If they came to Singapore and got PR or citizenship because Singapore wants someone from Singapore to win a grammy, and they did, I will recognise their talent but I will not be proud at all.
 
Besides, don't forget that Singapore is a country made up of immigrants - which includes the grandparents or great-grandparents of those people here who claim to be the TRUE local born-and-breed Singaporeans.

Bro, you didnt get my point. First of all, grandparents and great grandparents mean at the very least a generation gap of 2. 2 generations is a lot you know. People who shifted here many many many years ago are VERY different from people coming in to singapore on invitation of the SSC, along with very tempting rewards. You can NOT! class the products of the Foreign Talent Scheme with the people who are born and/or bred in Singapore.

Local sportsmen benefit from this OVERWHELMING of foreign talent? Please, all I see and what happens in the majority is parents telling their kids not to pursue careers in sports, because singaporeans cant do it.
 
thanks THOA.
i think your point about giving 100% applies to most things in general, and not just competitive sports lah..

hi K2desoog.
actually i kinda see vegecrackers's point. whether a win is based on competition or popularity, it's still a representation of your nation. anyway, i think a populartity contest is still a competition by nature. it's like miss universe. it's a popularity contest, as well as a beauty (and some say brains..) pageant.

anyway, i think that if our forefathers weren't welcomed by the then-locals of singapore, our nation wouldn't be what it is today. those immigrant eventually became singaporeans, and contributed to our nation's economy. they had children, and that became us (some of whom are currently complaining that the olympic medallists aren't born and bred here). it's true the majority of our representation at the games are foreign athletes who became singaporeans. but that isn't anyone's fault and definitely not that of the athletes themselves. it's that singapore's sporting standards just isn't there yet... and singaporeans "born and bred" here need more nurturing before they're ready. if our singaporean athletes who were born in china/indonesia are ready to represent the nation right now because they have been playing with ping pong balls since they were 3, then why the hell not?

maybe i am not as nationalistic as some of the members here. i really don't see the difference between a foreign-born singaporean or a born and bred locally singaporean winning a medal. it's still to the greater glory of our nation. some might not know, but our Health Minister, Khaw Boon Wan, wasn't born in singapore. he actually came from a poor malaysian family. because of his aptitude, the singaporean govt offered him a scholarship. this allowed him to pursue a quality university education. if not for that scholarship, would he be the person he is today? he might not even have had the chance to go to university. now, he is singaporean and formulating policies which affect each and every one of us. our healthcare system is world-class and other countries look up to us in the respect. so, are we resentful, or is the glory not ours, because our Health Minister wasn't born here? it is true that singapore's healthcare system was already superb before is assumed his post - but he has improved it tremendously through the restructuring of public hospitals and making healthcare more affordable for everyone.

i just think that singaporeans complain too much. i am willing to bet my one and only guitar (ok, it isn't much.. but at least it's a USA made washburn) that if we didn't manage to clinch a medal this time around, some people would be complaining about how we're paying Li Jia Wei & gang so much for NOTHING.
 
it's that singapore's sporting standards just isn't there yet... and singaporeans "born and bred" here need more nurturing before they're ready.

Well, I think we more willing to have our money spent on the time to nurture our own born and bred athletes rather than buying over athletes for instant success. Think of it this way: between instant cup-o-noodles and spaghetti bolognese, the latter, although more tedious and time consuming to prepare offer more satisfaction when done right.

The real problem? We stopped believing we can do it.

some might not know, but our Health Minister, Khaw Boon Wan, wasn't born in singapore. he actually came from a poor malaysian family. because of his aptitude, the singaporean govt offered him a scholarship. this allowed him to pursue a quality university education. if not for that scholarship, would he be the person he is today?

Another example of equating one situation with another...

I believe the offer for scholarship is common for anyone who excels and has the aptitude in our education system. He chose to come over for an education in Singapore. That certainly is fine. All the power to him to be able to do what he is able to do.

My question is: was he already a citizen when he was offered a position in the government office? Or was he still a Malaysian citizen, only to become a Singapore citizen AFTER being offered the position?

If it is the former, then I would see it as a valid choice. Nothing much can be said about it. He became a citizen because he wants to be in this country, without any promise of a reward for being one. If it is the latter, with all due respect to him, I really find it pretty perturbing.

i just think that singaporeans complain too much. i am willing to bet my one and only guitar (ok, it isn't much.. but at least it's a USA made washburn) that if we didn't manage to clinch a medal this time around, some people would be complaining about how we're paying Li Jia Wei & gang so much for NOTHING.

Of course we would! Simply because, we felt it's a bad idea to begin with, whether we win the medal or not.

You must realise, it is not a matter of being against the idea of having foreign talents to be part of Singapore. It is a question of principles of HOW we got the foreign talents to be part of us.

Right now, it seems like they are being BOUGHT over, with promises of this and that, rather than the foreign talents making an INDEPENDANT choice, with no influences by the governent, sporting bodies or any other organisations who can shamelessly benefit from them, to affect the decision.

Right now, the ratio of locally born and bred talents representing Singapore in the games is dreadfully small. We are barely making efforts to tackle that problem. Instead we took the quick and easy "store-bought" way of Made-in-China athletes as if they are Made-in-China products. Where is the integrity and principles and most of all IDENTITY of Singapore in that? We are still in this bought-and-borrowed culture. For a long time, sports was one of the few exceptions to that. Now even sports got trapped in.

The foreign press are laughing at us, making a mockery of our "win" because we are using foreign-born talents and here we are pretending that what they say is just mindless spite and not true.
 
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Well THOA, i think the main reason why singapore's sporting talents are not of international standard yet is basically the emphasis placed in academic disciplines before. i do agree with you that the government should place greater emphasis and funding on nurturing our local sporting talents. i think that in the recent years, they have realized that they are nurturing academic talents at the expense of sporting talents; hence, the opening of the singapore sports school. i think that having foreign athletes beef up the standard of sports in singapore is also a good way to encourage the young ones in singapore, on top of fulfilling our short-term goal of winning a medal as soon as we can, while local talents are being nurtured. the government dangling the hefty olympic prize money is also a signal of increased emphasis on sports in singapore.

well, he became a singapore citizen because he was grateful for the opportunities which singapore gave him. that was before he became the health minister. anyway, i feel that it doesn't matter when he became a singaporean citizen. we have to face the truth here - every foreign person who eventually becomes a singapore citizen became one because of what we can offer them. be it a stable economy, safe and secure roads, or, a promise a fruitful career in sports with added nuturing - opportunities the foreign athlete probably couldn't get at his/her home country. if i were to give up my singaporean citizenship for, say, an australian one, it would be for my own personal benefit. on a smaller scale, one wouldn't become an employee of a company if nothing the company offers attracts him/her. and when you do join, you would work hard for that company - because it affects you as well. and when they reward you well, you feel valued and will start to develop a sense of belonging (also because of the friends you make). it's a real world here. i won't become an australian citizen "just because". but i will think very hard about it if they offer me an opportunity which is of great personal importance to me.

the foreign press can mock us. but we should not let their comments throw us off. nobody's pretending everything's fine. bringing in foreign talents is already a way of conceding that everything's NOT. but this could translate into value addedness for our country. because our local sportspeople finally have someone to look up to. when our local talents train with the foreign athletes full-time, they begin to learn from each other. think of it as expanding our horizons. because if you don't train with the world's best (in our case, second best), there is no way you can become the world's best.
 
I dunno abt you guys...........but i think that the root of this discussion is that the table tennis team is all made up for China-born immigrants. I'll bet my last dollar that if 2 of them were Singaporeans, none of this would have come up. Its a sad truth that in pursuit of academic glory, most of us forget the other types that can be had. And for a country with a small talent pool, it is an uphill task for the trainers and scouts to find these people, hence the foreign talent scheme. But there is a point where this type of schemes get ridiculous, like in the case of Agu Casmir. And don't forget, it takes time to build up a sporting identity; countries that won gold at the olympics won them bcos they have long been famous for those sports, with the exception of Liu Xiang of the 110m hurdles and that was bcos he was injured. All in all, i can see the government is trying their best to appease the general public with a medal of 2 but just buying talents from overseas will sooner or later make us the Chelsea of the Olympics. Do any of us want to see that happen? Not me.
 
Also, can CCA prepare you enough for the biggest sporting event in the world? Can CCA lead you all the way to the World Cup? Are Team Singapore CCA based? No, they are full time national athletes and sportsmen, being paid to train, being paid to win.

The answer is either yes or no; it simply depends on your CCA and school. There exist some highly competitive CCAs or schools, especially the independent schools which has more autonomy over the school policies. One example is my school's CCAs!! :D We have handful of sportsmen who moved on to become national sportsmen after they graduate.

Currently, majority of the national shooters began as a CCA shooter in their secondary school and Junior College. :cool:


BUT, one point is definitely true. S'poreans are more concerned with studies and making a proper living.


"There is barely any programme to nurture the best of our youths to sporting excellence, and concentrate only on that."

Things have improved today though.... One example is the Singapore Sports School which helps to nurture local talents.

Second example is the CCA programme. Now, before you start laughing your ass off, let's not underestimate what CCAs can achieve. There are schools which train their athletes to national standard - such as RJC and HCI. I have teammates who are training hard, representing at regional and international competitions, while juggling their studies at the same time!

Third example is, Singapore has National Youth Teams (NYT) for many sports - archery, soccer, swimming, etc - you name it. Local youths who have performed well in their inter-school competitions will be selected to be part of NYT. NYT members also receive subsidies for their training programme and undergo an intense training programme.

These above-mentioned programmes are long term solutions - they take time to produce results. Talent requires time to be nurtured. Besides, these programmes have only been recently implemented.

Also, such hardwork by local athletes are often ignored or unrecognized by the general public. I'm sure Singapore sportsmen will perform better in years to come... :cool: Go team Singapore!
 
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i see that there is still a continuing arrogance that foreigners have to be integrated into local sports development systems, rather than locals be sent overseas to train.

no.1 excuse - SMALL POPULATION

to quote PM Lee in his recent national day rally speech
In the Olympics contingent, there are 25 members, half of whom are new Singaporeans. Why do we need them? Make a single calculation. The Chinese have 1.3 billion people. Singapore has a population of four million ... If we want to win glory for Singapore and do well not only in sports but in many other areas, we cannot merely depend on the local-born. We need to attract talent from all over
it is a very nice play of exaggeration and biased comparisons. 1.3 billion people get you 42 gold medals. how many medals could 4-5million people get?

SINGAPORE
population : 4.59 million
real GDP (total) :
US$228.116 billion
real GDP (per capita) : US$49,714

2008 olympic medal tally : 0G 1S 0B

FIFA ranking : 126 (down 53 places in 15 years :o)

SLOVAKIA
population : 5.38 million
real GDP (total) :
US$109.587 billion
real GDP (per capita) : US$20,188

2008 olympic medal tally : 3G 1S 0B

FIFA ranking : 64

GEORGIA
population : 4.63 million
real GDP (total) :
US$20.5 billion (wtf??)
real GDP (per capita) : US$4,700

2008 olympic medal tally : 2G 0S 1B

FIFA ranking : 86

NEW ZEALAND
population : 4.28 million
real GDP (total) :
US$117.696 billion
real GDP (per capita) : US$27,785

2008 olympic medal tally : 2G 1S 4B

FIFA ranking : 111

for all of our foreigners, we have only managed a silver, similar to malaysia's achievements, except that our neighbours used a team of mostly local-born athletes.

These above-mentioned programmes are long term solutions - they take time to produce results. Talent requires time to be nurtured. Besides, these programmes have only been recently implemented.

the singapore table tennis association started its foreign talent sports scheme in 1993. li jia wei is 27. she came to singapore when she was 14, and got citizenship at 18.

despite 15 years of the scheme, our table tennis team consisted purely of china girls. feng tianwei came to singapore in march 2007 and was only granted citizenship in 2008.

so how long does it take? you could say less than 1 and a half years. you wouldn't be wrong.

most importantly, is there evidence of our local table-tennis players benefiting? i would love to be wrong.

the Foreign Sports Talent Scheme has brought in 54 athletes since its inception. of whom, 9 left the country, 1 quit the national team, one got sacked from the national team but continued to live in singapore. some of them left in disgrace, such as shot putt thrower Dong Enxin who simply DISAPPEARED. Footballer Agu Casmir also made a disappearing act but has since remained in singapore.

for sure, we could import more players. we could import phelps and the entire brazilian football team. but it would only make them get worse.
 
know what?

they came here, and we better improve their skills, the foreigners, up a notch, up another level. so maybe, if they'd treat singaporean the same, we too might be able to do the same. all we need would be a chance. uh huh.

maybe its just the mindset that foreigners would fare better than us?

just a thought. haha.
 
I think Shinobi's post speaks for itself.

No. 1 excuse - SMALL POPULATION

No. 1 real reason - Nobody wants to believe.

The original plan for foreign talents is to boost the chances for our own athletes to achive something in the international sports arena. But now, the boost becomes a dependancy.

We are in this cycle: society not keen in sports cos nobody believes it can go anywhere, so nobody wants to bother to invest time and money for it. So we end up with sub-par athletes who is unable to achieve anything and we are now back to square 1.

So now foreign-born talents won us a gold medal. Bravo. So basically is that how the cycle is gonna be now? That we invest in foreign-born talents because we believe more in them being able to gain for us something, while our locals can't? I hope not, cos that only "justify" this diseased perception that our own Singapore-born athletes are "crap".

"There was a time when people said that Singapore won't make it. But we did"

How ironic, cos by relying on foreign-born talents, we are in a way are saying our own people STILL won't make it.
 
Hey Shinobi, the statistics you shared are starkly enlightening! Definitely a post that should be forwarded to the scholars attached to MCYS.

Maybe our government got bored with achieving best airport, best airline, best sea port, top 10 least corrupt, etc... for so many years. So now they are moving onto sports. But, can someone please tell these PSC & President scholars that sports cannot be run the same as the economy?!?
 
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