Music store etiquette

[lordie]

Ok. If you break something in a shop, the shop is liable to ask for you to pay for it. The sign saying ' Once broke considered sold ' is a contract itself. - I asked my friend who studied law.

I guess if you break something, remove the signage? HAHA kidding.

can i put that in my house, got lotsa kids and pesky aunties and uncles love to fondle my gear without my permision even tho they are lock in a case.

but ppl who studied law vs someone that practice is different ;p. so any REAL lawyers to advice?

 

[DeathCubeK]

when in war times, the 3 crab wil shaft a tank up your a.ss than u can feel it. LOL.

Lol, the reason I said that was only because my vocation in army saw a lot of civilian - army personnel interaction. It's funny seeing a 2 - 3 crab get scolded because civilians really tend to heck care army personnel as they have no power outside. I think they're more afraid of policemen because the police can charge you as a civilian.

 

[whee]

Any lawyers can advise us on this?

I heard that i the event we accidently break something in a shop - the shop cannot legally insist for us to purchase it ...

I either heard or read about this law somewhere ...

Enlightenment needed ........

You're probably right. The shop has no legal right to insist on the purchase. There are several ways to explain this, but I think that would be a legal answer that will probably bore everyone else.

Just as a point to the TS, the law/public policy tends to side with the consumer. Simply put, damage to display items & goods are part and parcel of doing business. The business risk of incurring losses from such damage is inherently foreseeable. As such, as businesses can easily insure against such losses, the law would most likely move to protect the consumer instead. I find it curious that bad customer service should be justified - is there any excuse? I don't think so. You make a profit from providing the service, it's only trite that you provide it. Not every customer will buy; you may run into bad eggs. BUT that's part and parcel of the business, and you charge a premium for it, and presumably, compensated for the bullshit you get subjected to.

the views expressed are not meant to be taken as legal advice. these are just my opinions and could easily be wrong

 

[ymmak]

=whee

This is something new, glad that I've learnt something today. But I just want to clarify a few things.

The assumption is that business can easily insure against losses. I have learnt of examples where company buy insurance for products kept in warehouses, or car dealers buying insurance protection for their cars in the showroom. From what I understand, this insurance usually covers incidents like fire breakout, flooding etc, but does not cover obsolescence, wear and tear, or misappropriate handling. Now, in the case of a guitar shop, I am unsure whether the guitar store owner actually buy any insurance coverage for display sets in their store. I tend to think that they do not have any insurance, but I cannot verify (some store owners may like to verify?). Assuming that they do not have insurance, wouldnt that mean that the guitar stores are always at a disadvantage?

Yup, stores with bad service should not justify their "bad services-ness". But then again, bad services do not = crime, so store owners arent really legally or contractually obligated to provide good services. Many shops, whether music shop or fashion stores, that I patronise, neither provide good service that deserves excessive compliments, nor poor service that leads to many complains; but just "normal" or "average" service. So assuming that you and your competitors are selling the same product, you have to offer a little more better services to differentiate yourself from the crowd. So it is a trite to offer good services only because store owners want to outperform their competitors.

Generally, good services really tend to improve customer's lifelong value. A good example of good service is SIA. Just recently, they have offered passengers who are affected by the "Iceland volcano eruption" full accomodation until it is safe for their flights to take off. Now, that is good service. As a consumer, this is what I hope all guitar stores in SG will learn and adopt.

 

[whee]

i'll just deal with the point on insuring against potential loss/damage. I'm not an insurance agent - but I'm pretty sure that one can insure against potential losses arising from sales transaction. You'd be surprised as to how insurance works - especially when you consider reinsurance, you'd probably come to a conclusion that anything can be insured against. From a business perspective, one can still 'insure' against potential losses by adjusting profit margin. That's always in the discretion of the business owner - how he strikes a balance between competitiveness and making a decent margin is a matter of business acumen. Things like spoilt inventory, salaries, etc are all factored into the overall price that is paid by the consumer. If you actually take a look from this perspective, if I were to purchase a guitar, I would expect good service because i have paid for it when i chose to patronise a particular shop .

I'm just stating an opinion that in general, Courts would side with the consumer because the consumer is manifestly at a disadvantage in any transaction. Simply put, you are at the mercy of the business owners whenever you transact. For example, if you should buy a ticket from SISTIC for a concert at Fort Canning, you have no choice but the assent to the terms and conditions stated therein on the back of the ticket. There is no equality of bargaining power, no 'real' meeting of minds in such a scenario. In certain scenarios, the statutory provisions do provide some relief for the consumer (e.g. Unfair Contract Terms Act ; Sales of Goods Act ; Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act. But do note that 'siding' with the consumer doesn't mean tilting the playing field in favour of the consumer. It merely levels the playing field to recognise the deficiencies that one holds from the position of the consumer. Other considerations such as business efficacy and commercial sense will feature significantly in the law.

In any case, in the event that anyone of you guys would like to drop a guitar when the sign says "once dropped/broken, considered sold", you should just consult your lawyer first.

 

[balloons]

I would be very interested to know as well...

Seekz,let's just imagine one fine day,two teenagers walked into your store,and one of them caused one of your displayed guitar to fell off and dented a certain obvious part, would u ask him to pay for it?

 

[Gates]

IMO, I think Sinamex has a pretty awesome concept. They let you try their Taylors freely(They have a sign there if I'm not wrong) and the staffs are pretty friendly towards a teen like me. Guitar shops around Singapore should be like them.

Who wouldn't want to try something before buying?

I've seen many shops cramming instruments and hanging them so high up. If you want to prevent people from reaching to them, perhaps you can put a barrier or simply just space them further apart. And, if the things in your shop keeps falling off the shelves far too often.. Perhaps the problem aint with the customers aye.

Just a question for the people working in this line.

Are you a passionate musician that truly desire to help the people that just started out or are you simply just a businessman that cares only about sales from selling a guitar to every single pick?

 

[whee]

=Gates

I once went to Tom Lee in HK, and the service (as you can imagine) was night and day to what you can find here. It was a pretty crowded afternoon, but I enquired about the this laney 15 watt amp that they had.. While they couldn't really assist me (due to language barrier) and as they were busy, they were pretty patient and made me feel extremely welcome. All I did was ask, and the salesperson basically told me to follow him to the guitars hanging on the rack, and told me to take my pick so that I could pick a guitar and plug it straight into the amp to test it. He took me to the gibson section - where the guitars cost more than amp, mind you. I think if you have salespeople who are eager to assist, regardless of whether or not the potential buyer is likely to make a purchase, such unpleasant encounters could be minimized

 

[ymmak]

=whee

Woohoo. Thanks for your explaination. When you mention the word "insured", I thought that you were literally refering to insurance protection for inventory. Now that you say that sellers can "insure" (if i am not wrong, in accounting , they use 'provision for potential losses') against potential losses by adjusting profit margin, I can see why the law tend to side the consumers.

I do not understand this statement "I'm pretty sure that one can insure against potential losses arising from sales transaction.". Someone walks into guitar shop, merely test the guitar but accidentally damaged it, and there is no sales transaction from an accounting perspective (coz seller hasnt earn revenue and buyer hasnt incur an expense). So, whose fault? So, there isnt any slight chance for the store owner to get back some form of compensation due to negligence of customers? Surely, the owner can recover the losses by selling more products or raising profit margin. You can also argue that the owner should have provided for such scenarios when putting a price tag on the products. But I still silently feel that it is a little unfair towards the store owners.

 

[seekz]

Seekz,let's just imagine one fine day,two teenagers walked into your store,and one of them caused one of your displayed guitar to fell off and dented a certain obvious part, would u ask him to pay for it?

Actually it did happened to me before and indeed it was two teenagers, the one who tested it dinged the lower horn of a strat. I can't make a student buy a fender japan, so I proposed that he compensate some money then i have to drop the price on my guitar and put it at the discount section of my store...

It was a case of "lan lan suck thumb" for me...

 

[guitarsan]

that really happen before? army colonel walk in to a guitar store in full uniform? indeed ,must be an idiot.

i can imagine. the staff will shout, "SHOP! Keep still there!", "good morning sir!"

No...the staff will shout "Rrrrrrooooooooommm!".....and everybody stay frozen as they are.

Haha...reminds me of my BMT days nong nong ago!

 

[Morlock]

I have to Agree with Lordie on this one... if you dont want people to touch the guitars, you can put them behind a glass or something, and put a bunch of cameras inside the store. Have you ever seen a museum where the display is outside and open? NO! because, it is human nature to be curious and to touch and tinker. no sign can prevent that from happening, no amount of education can prevent that from happening.

A guitar store is a museum\store, people can come in and admire the instruments. if you dont want them to do that, then close shop.

I have went to most guitar stores here in singapore and OMG most of them are really squeezed in!! I dred going in a guitar store specially in peninsula. one wrong move and you can accidentally bump a guitar into falling off. and the guitars are so fitted tightly that even a strong wind can come and blow it off the rack. and it is fitted so tightly that you cannot the whole guitar at that angle. you really have to take the guitar to see the back neck, headstock and body properly. I almost flet sorry for the guitars.

There is always a simple solution to these problems, and scolding and whining are not one of them.

 

[theliverevolution]

I have went to most guitar stores here in singapore and OMG most of them are really squeezed in!!

Agreed. Sometimes, I'm even scared to even do my shopping for fear of accidentally knocking one of the guitars over. Some of the shops tend to squeeze too much into their spaces!

 

[whee]

=ymmak

Unfair? Perhaps. Unjust? No. You see, its always within the owner's control to protect himself from the risk of losses e.g. install glass panels/cabinets to house the guitars to prevent unwanted touching and to ensure that the customer always seek assistance when they want to try. To really turn around and (while it may be intuitive to blame the customer) point fingers at the customer and victimise himself, is really disgusting. You can blame everyone in the world and claim that this makes it difficult for you to do business, but as noted, this is a business and if you make money you don't complain and neither do you thank the customer... It's just bad attitude. Don't blame anyone if you suck at business, really.

Negligence is a different concept. For starters, one will need to prove that the customer owes the store owner a duty of care and that he has fallen below the standard of a reasonable customer. That may be a tall order to prove. Ultimately, if one (as a customer) has indeed damaged the guitar of the store, he should just offer some compensation as an ethical, i.e. 'right thing to do', gesture.

 

[ymmak]

Negligence is a different concept. For starters, one will need to prove that the customer owes the store owner a duty of care and that he has fallen below the standard of a reasonable customer. That may be a tall order to prove.

I can see why it is difficult to prove that the customer is negligent. Looks like the store owner is really powerless when such mishap happens. Will it help if you have CCTV that records the "negligent act"?

Anyway, given this scenario, please kindly advice. A man goes to a car showroom to test drive a car. While test driving, he crashed the car and killed the sales lady. Will the car dealer be compensated, assuming that the car dealers have no insurance coverage for their showroom cars? Thanks.

 

[lordie]

I can see why it is difficult to prove that the customer is negligent. Looks like the store owner is really powerless when such mishap happens. Will it help if you have CCTV that records the "negligent act"?

Anyway, given this scenario, please kindly advice. A man goes to a car showroom to test drive a car. While test driving, he crashed the car and killed the sales lady. Will the car dealer be compensated, assuming that the car dealers have no insurance coverage for their showroom cars? Thanks.

if u test a car they will hang a temp "license" plate the blue color ones, that provides it with insurance. the girl sales lady die, eh corporate insurance + personal insurance.

if a hot sales lady die - what a shame ;p

 

[Morlock]

Store Owner is not "Powerless". Lets take Swee Lee for example.

1. They let customers leave bag near the door, can customer do anything about it? no.
2. Customer walks in and gets filmed by dozens of CCTV camera, can custom do anything about it? no.
3. Customer walks into the more expense showcase but is blocked by railings, can customer do anything about it? I think you get my drift.

Another case (Hypothetical):
1. Customer walks in and gotten sales talked into buying something cheap at a really high price. Can customer do anything? no.
2. Customer walks in and bought a guitar, gets home and its broken, but can't come back until next week because he has to fly for a meeting. gets back return to store to complain, then store owner says they only replace within 7 days. there is nothing a customer can do about it.

if you can see, it is really the customer that has no power. All a customer can do is to be very meticulous when buying something. Thats why a customer has all the right to test a guitar and not buy it. that is his only weapon from being conned.



Another thing, if you go and buy a furniture or electronic, they usually dont give you the one being displayed right? its because display items are usually gets scratched, slight damaged for being displayed in the first place. display items are usually sold at half the price.

 

[Morlock]

if u test a car they will hang a temp "license" plate the blue color ones, that provides it with insurance. the girl sales lady die, eh corporate insurance + personal insurance.

if a hot sales lady die - what a shame ;p

Driver can be charged with man slaughter and put to jail. usually they let people sign some sort of waiver before let them test ride.

 

[lordie]

Store Owner is not "Powerless". Lets take Swee Lee for example.

1. They let customers leave bag near the door, can customer do anything about it? no.
2. Customer walks in and gets filmed by dozens of CCTV camera, can custom do anything about it? no.
3. Customer walks into the more expense showcase but is blocked by railings, can customer do anything about it? I think you get my drift.

Another case (Hypothetical):
1. Customer walks in and gotten sales talked into buying something cheap at a really high price. Can customer do anything? no.
2. Customer walks in and bought a guitar, gets home and its broken, but can't come back until next week because he has to fly for a meeting. gets back return to store to complain, then store owner says they only replace within 7 days. there is nothing a customer can do about it.

if you can see, it is really the customer that has no power. All a customer can do is to be very meticulous when buying something. Thats why a customer has all the right to test a guitar and not buy it. that is his only weapon from being conned.



Another thing, if you go and buy a furniture or electronic, they usually dont give you the one being displayed right? its because display items are usually gets scratched, slight damaged for being displayed in the first place. display items are usually sold at half the price.

guess thats why they been around for a very very very long time!

 

[Whitestrat]

Negligence is a different concept. For starters, one will need to prove that the customer owes the store owner a duty of care and that he has fallen below the standard of a reasonable customer. That may be a tall order to prove. Ultimately, if one (as a customer) has indeed damaged the guitar of the store, he should just offer some compensation as an ethical, i.e. 'right thing to do', gesture.

Other than pure ethics, is there nothing on property damage? Technically the product is the ownership of the store owner. While you possibly cannot demand that the customer purchase the damaged guitar, but can the owner not seek damages from the customer for having damaged his property?

It is the same where during the test drive of a car, even though there is an insurance coverage for test drive cars, the driver must bear any damages on the vehicle if incurred.