Jazz...learnt or talent?

[ShredCow]

Finally someone has mentioned the painful truth. Improv is not about knowing fancy sounding scales and chord substitutions. .

I cannot agree with you. Theory has helped countless people with improvising. With giving them a starting point, a reference point to play solos over.

There are times ESPECIALLY in jazz that the chords just flow and flow, key changes happening every 4 bars... theory comes in to help then...

Its all fine and dandy if you have a good ear. BUT if you don't? Then what? Try to listen harder? You can try to apply some theory. That WILL get you somewhere.

And its is so wrong to assume that MOST people who know theory are geeks who can't jam. You say there are player who know little theory and can play well, I agree. But there are many players who know theory AND can play well. Steve Vai, Mattias Elkundh, Paul Gilbert, Joe Satriani and the list goes on.

If you can groove, play tasteful chords and have development in your solo, but know NO theory... you don't have an edge. Same if you know how to write but can't write grammatically correct, you don't have an edge.
Sure you can play wonderfully and sweetly, write nice poems... but you will not be able to best a person who knows what he wants in a solo, can tell you what he played, and the writer who can compose a beautiful song with no grammer errors.

All in all, my point here is this;
Theory WILL give you the edge over the rest.

If you don't want to learn it, you have a good ear, thats fine...it really is... but between you and another player with theory AND a good ear, now that player will have the edge over you.

If you wanna forget theory, you better have a damn good ear. Otherwise, theory will help in difficult improvisations.

Learning theory is never bad. Its whether you want to break out of your box to learn something that will help you. Of course, having a good ear AND theory is the best.

 

[ShredCow]

Oh ya, you can play jazz and music without theory. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[djanggo]

theory is the guideline.But what sets you apart from the rest is your creativity and how you play your guitar eg...phrasing,choice of notes,bending,vibrato...etc .I have seen many players have huge vocabalary of theory but do not know how to apply to their playing.Its easy to learn theory...just memorized scales,notes and so on..But to apply practically to your playing is not easy..it takes hardwork and listening more using your ears.Thats why musician playing by ears are better.Everybody can train to play by ears.Its either you learn slow or fast depends on individual capabilities.Unless you are deaf or hearing handicapped.

 

[Ablue]

Did I say learning theory was bad? Theory does not compensate for the lack of hearing ability period. Theory will only make sense if you can hear a particular scale or harmonic movement. If you can't hear it what's the point of saying, 'yeah I'm using a lydian domninant'. It is purely memorised, blind application of licks and chords if you can't hear it. Theory should not be a means to an end but rather it is an aid to ear training.

The unschooled musicians can survive without theory because they started to play from young and understand for harmony, groove etc intuitively, just from purely transcribing music. Theory does jack for playing if you can't hear. Rather, iit should be used to help someone learning music to hear better. It's like if you want to learn an interval, you call let's say a maj 3rd and learn how to hear it. You learn by labeling, making a reference point like you said. If you're on a bus and cannot tell the bus bell is a maj 3rd, then knowing all the theory about intervals is absolutely pointless. What's the point of explaining something, when you can't hear it. The goal in improvisation is always to hear better, theoretical understanding is not absolutely necessary, although like you said, its something good to have.

I may have come across as making an 'attack' on your post, but I was not. I hope u understand where I'm coming from. Talk to more players, schooled or unschooled, the consensus will become clear.

 

[ShredCow]

I agree with djanggo... I'm not looking down on pure improvisation and creativity...

I have seen many players who have no theory and play well.. And I have seen many players who have no theory and don't know where to start or don't play well.

And learning theory is more than scales and notes... There is a whole concept behind everything... and harder things like chord substitution. Plus, if you know theory, you know that the Lydian mode is the Ionian (major) mode with a sharpen 4th. Now I don't have to memorize the entire lydian mode. Theory can help.

Musicians who play by ear ARE better. There is feel in it. Not some techincal whizzing around.. but note that, if you don't have a good ear, theory helps you start.

I must say this that.. esp for newbies or even the old players here... learning theory is like giving you a ladder instead of a rope. It might just help you a little... or it can help you understand music a lot. Give it a shot please... don't shoot it down as extra work.

 

[djanggo]

ok i agree to that

 

[Ablue]

If you can groove, play tasteful chords and have development in your solo, but know NO theory... you don't have an edge.

Knowing how to write means you are grammatically correct. Can you remember all your high school grammer? Can you even remember the differences between noun , verb ,adverb etc? Knowledge of grammer helps but not necessary to write correctly. Nobody thinks grammatically when they speak or write. It just come intuitively by having read and spoken the language for years. Its only when asked to explain the 'rules' then grammer becomes somewhat useful. Then again if you are familiar with literary works, Queen's english isn't used all the time. A work of art, doesn't mean it has to conform to 'grammer'. Think the beat generation writers like Jack Kerouac who were actually inspired by Jazz music, bebop in particular.

Think Thelonius Monk, Miles davies ,John scofield etc. They certainly don't confine themselves to what is traditionally known as harmony in classical circles. There's simply an overt obsession to play what is 'right'.

 

[ShredCow]

Well, thats the short coming of theory... when you use it to compose or express yourself.. You box yourself up.

Theory does help though... like what I said, its fine to play without theory but if you can learn it, go ahead. It will help.

 

[ShredCow]

I must add this that for ablue and djanggo, you guys have valid points and I'm sure you are concerned abt people who delve into theory too much and end up boxing themselves up...

So yeah... for newbies reading this, please read all posts carefully... this discussion has important points to note.

 

[iansoh]

for all the heavy crossfire and defence systems springing up around here, i hope each individual has had first-hand experience to speak from, and not just mere extrapolated theories or hearsay.

theory knowledge IS a good thing. theory, however, in application to something as creativity-based as jazz, plays an almost insignificant role when it comes to contributing to the final product of the jazz player. i have approached many a jazz player on how they do this and that, and more often than not, the reply comes as something absolutely un-technical and i would probably already have heard before. "oh yeah, i just threw in a few 7ths and 9ths man" but HELL, it sure didn't sound that simple! and probably many of us would have had similar encounters. we KNOW what needs to be done, but somehow it never works for us for a long time until one day we make a discovery by accidentally executing, say, a nice voicing. and therein lies but your own creativity/feel/experience. no amount of theoretical knowledge would have achieved this.

so to paraphrase my point; there is no way direct application of theory will get you anywhere in jazz and hence whatever advantage it provides is small. it's good to learn some, but it is not absolutely necessary. i speak as someone with theory qualifications, who plays by ear, and has been learning everyday for the past 2-3 years how to play and improvise in jazz. in the beginning u'll always progress in stumbles, but as u improve u'll find that your own 'creative concoctions' of your own voicings will start to sound better and more "jazz-like". no theory involved there.

 

[iansoh]

on a sidenote, shredcow, i hope you're not differentially addressing 'newbies' from the more 'advanced players'. everyone is here to learn something and everyone is a newbie in his/her own ways.

 

[Pseudo-Jazzman]

to me~~ i guess theory really helps me to get thru playing in keys lyk Eb and Ab~ cuz you're made to practice i guess~

 

[ShredCow]

Good points Ian, I too have been learning jazz and whats nice comes from a lot improvising and what not... but I've been actively using theory as a form of a shortcut...

Like when there's a Cmaj7 chord, I know I should emphasize the 7th, which is a B in order to bring out the flavour of the maj7 chord but then, if I did that for every maj7 chord, I would end up sounding the same everytime, albeit a very safe way of soloing. So thats where theory ends and creativity takes over...

So its pretty correct for the pro to say, I threw in some 9ths and 7ths to get that nice texture of my solo... although it may sound wayyyyy more than that...

In anycase, in your exprience, you find theory of little help in jazz.. but to some it might help a lot...

And yes Ian, I was refering to newbies more because thats the biggest group of musicians who come in and question the need for theory. More often than not, from experience, they just throw it aside. I feel that its is crucial that they realise the importance of theory and not end up 10yrs down, regretting that they never took it up. Sure, its their choice, but I want to make sure they know how much theory can do for them first before they decide...

So lets wrap this up... all of us must understand that first and foremost, music is universal and does not need an explaination on why its done like that and so on. What works for one is another man's poison.
With that... theory and creativity can and often come together to create beautiful music.
My concern is that, we should never put down and look down on theory.. because from experience, I have seen and heard too many players just say theory is rubbish and will definately box you up.
Theory has its importances and place. It works for some and it doesn't for some. Its not essential but neither is it harmful.
Of course, creavitiy is key in making music. No creavity and only theory, you have music composed by a robot. Its the little nauces and application of what's theorectically "wrong", that makes music human and beautiful.
So yeah... lets continue to look up to creavity in music but not forget what theory is.


Excellent discussion... done the way it should be done.

 

[djanggo]

im talking about all kinds of music.Not only jazz.By the way,rock or heavy metal music are much more complicated nowadays.It has the blues,rock,jazz,country etc mix together which we can learn rather than just learning jazz or blues only.Eg,dream theatre,symphony x....etc.Listen to this kind of band or music and you will learn a lot about music not only guitar.I should say advance progressive rock

 

[ShredCow]

Hmmm.... djanggo, DT and symphony X are progressive metal bands... they are still "stuck" in the prog metal arena...

IMO, if you want to check out rock bands that are really prog as in they do jazz, blues, electronica, funk, experimental and what not... you should check out the older prog rock band... the fathers of prog.
Like Yes, King Crimson, Spock's Beard and the like....

But of course, nothing beats listening to the real thing...

 

[popeye]

any recommended instructor in singapore for learning jazz guitar?

 

[ChanMin]

i played 7 years without any theory.
after learning it my playing was still the same... perhaps abit more knowledgable when it comes to improv... better usage of modes etc...

but naturally it doesnt replace the experience and stuff i learnt by ear.
theory WILL help you become a better player guys... esp in jazz where the song progressions are almost never your standard peasy 1,4,5 -- the song could change keys multiple times -- being able to read scores is also a valuble skill ... its quite ingenius actually.. song key , tempo , everything is on the paper..so you just play off it (havent reached that stage yet) ... jus take it as learning a new language. Theory is very very dry. its applying it thats fun.

 

[popeye]

how can talk about 1,4,5 progression, changing multiple keys, and such if you don't know about theory in the first place? :roll: Don't you think you contradict yourself?

There are 24 fret multiply by 6 string combination of note each time to press. How would you know which one to press without any theory?

 

[Newbie]

Im gonna have a hard time learning jazz

 

[spikes]

Im gonna have a hard time learning jazz

1%talent+99% work= Jazz superstar...