DoubleBlade
New member
You too as well. =)
How many keyboardists here are into ROCK?
- Thread starter kizo7
- Start date
Yup, as i have learned, it's quite difficult trying to find a rock/metal playing keyboardist here. I'm still trying to find someone that is willing to play stuff that as accessible as Evanescence, so if there is someone that is game enough to try, do let me know, hehe...thanks..
a_5
New member
my band really nd a keys
hi there every1
my band's doing stuff from Rainbow n Deep Purple
and some others tho
we r into Alternative as well just to keep into the pace
our keys r bz atm with some personal stuff n may not be
with us for good
so if any1 out there fancy to join . . . by all means then
no age n race barriers
thnx
rgds
harith
hi there every1
my band's doing stuff from Rainbow n Deep Purple
and some others tho
we r into Alternative as well just to keep into the pace
our keys r bz atm with some personal stuff n may not be
with us for good
so if any1 out there fancy to join . . . by all means then
no age n race barriers
thnx
rgds
harith
DoubleBlade
New member
Desperate times calls for desperate measures eh?
There's the "Musicians Wanted" thread you know?
There's the "Musicians Wanted" thread you know?
compasszone
New member
Hi ,
Sorry to hijack this thread, we are looking for a keyboardist to join us .
And we are mainly playing 80's rock songs so if anyone keyboardist out there is looking for a band to join pls contact me at 97975579
Cheers
ThaiBoy:mrgreen:
Sorry to hijack this thread, we are looking for a keyboardist to join us .
And we are mainly playing 80's rock songs so if anyone keyboardist out there is looking for a band to join pls contact me at 97975579
Cheers
ThaiBoy:mrgreen:
DoubleBlade
New member
Sorry to hijack this thread but I think posting ads with regards to looking for a keyboardist here won't do you any good.
There's always the musician wanted forum.
There's always the musician wanted forum.
MadWerewolfBoy
New member
Any keyboardist here interested in power symphonic metal? ala nightwish etc? My keybordist is finding it quite a challenge to program realistic orchestra patches w/o the very $$$ expansion cards (which are not sold here anyway).
aireydon
New member
erm....
..yr keyboardist dont reali need expansion cards to play symphonic metal. effective layering and plsitting can also do the trick. of cos..a decent synth, preferably with sequencer or combi(korg) /perf(yamaha,roland) modes for layering.
frankly, if u are reali that keen to get that exact REAL symphonic sound u are covering...thats quite impossible in a jam studio with 1-2 keys... ...even with expansion cards...the prob is not the realism ..its the handicap u face due to too many different tracks and medolies running at the same time that u are covering....u only have 2 hands....i've tried programming ghost love score b4...even with the triton..its..arghhhh!!...well i have the background track ..but wheres the fun in that...?
unless i use the sequencer ...layer and track them exact as per the CD song...and put my drummer into the metro....hmmm...i still dun t have enuff hands.
IMO..gotta improvisse a bit..understand which are the MAIN melodies...and know how to split AND layer yr orchestra patches ..(yes...dun be lazy...layer them after splitting!!)..i.e...brass and horns on the left hand doing the lows and violios/strings and SYNTHS(thomas oftern commented how he got his signature sound by layering synths with orchestra) on the right...maybe some back bground sequencing running a bit if u are doing the nightwish intros....
if u have a decent synth (not entry level PSRS or juno Ds/Yamaha S03s..unless u are using a external sequencer or labtop sequencing software..)...or should i say...workstation...its possible to cover pretty decently(not 100%..but maybe 70%?) symphonic metal with a bit of effort in yr layers and splits...
of cos a labtop
Juno Gs, fantoms, tritons and motifs should be quite alrite....?
..yr keyboardist dont reali need expansion cards to play symphonic metal. effective layering and plsitting can also do the trick. of cos..a decent synth, preferably with sequencer or combi(korg) /perf(yamaha,roland) modes for layering.
frankly, if u are reali that keen to get that exact REAL symphonic sound u are covering...thats quite impossible in a jam studio with 1-2 keys... ...even with expansion cards...the prob is not the realism ..its the handicap u face due to too many different tracks and medolies running at the same time that u are covering....u only have 2 hands....i've tried programming ghost love score b4...even with the triton..its..arghhhh!!...well i have the background track ..but wheres the fun in that...?
unless i use the sequencer ...layer and track them exact as per the CD song...and put my drummer into the metro....hmmm...i still dun t have enuff hands.
IMO..gotta improvisse a bit..understand which are the MAIN melodies...and know how to split AND layer yr orchestra patches ..(yes...dun be lazy...layer them after splitting!!)..i.e...brass and horns on the left hand doing the lows and violios/strings and SYNTHS(thomas oftern commented how he got his signature sound by layering synths with orchestra) on the right...maybe some back bground sequencing running a bit if u are doing the nightwish intros....
if u have a decent synth (not entry level PSRS or juno Ds/Yamaha S03s..unless u are using a external sequencer or labtop sequencing software..)...or should i say...workstation...its possible to cover pretty decently(not 100%..but maybe 70%?) symphonic metal with a bit of effort in yr layers and splits...
of cos a labtop
Juno Gs, fantoms, tritons and motifs should be quite alrite....?
Cheez
Moderator
Since we are getting into playing realistic orchestral sounds live... let me say the way to go about it is softsamples. There are too many articulations involved in a real orchestra that is almost impossible to cover using one patch from a synth.
However, having said that, it's not impossible to get near-realistic effects. Firstly, one will need a good patch. And the best (my opinion) is Roland. Next comes the skill. You don't play orchestral patches the same as a piano patch. For one, you don't use sustain pedal as much - you sustain with the fingers holding down. That will prevent creating an unreaslitic mushy sound. Next, you don't play too many block chords. Example - For brass or string patches, one note = one section of instruments (ie 3-4 trumpets and 8-12 strings). Playing a block chord will give you an unreslistic gigantic orchestra. Also, one will have to use the expression pedal very frequently. Then there's the way to actually play it to avoid the dreaded "sucking effect" of the strings, for example. The "sucking effect" is also related to the quality of the patch and it's programming.
To play orchestral instrument live, you have to think like a player in an orchestra, or rather like the conductor. So playing full strings, one will have to think in 4-parts (violin, viola, cello, double bass). Each part is one note, or most 2 for violins (violins 1 and 2). Playing 3 notes in the cello range, for example, will naturally unrealistic to the ears.
However, having said that, it's not impossible to get near-realistic effects. Firstly, one will need a good patch. And the best (my opinion) is Roland. Next comes the skill. You don't play orchestral patches the same as a piano patch. For one, you don't use sustain pedal as much - you sustain with the fingers holding down. That will prevent creating an unreaslitic mushy sound. Next, you don't play too many block chords. Example - For brass or string patches, one note = one section of instruments (ie 3-4 trumpets and 8-12 strings). Playing a block chord will give you an unreslistic gigantic orchestra. Also, one will have to use the expression pedal very frequently. Then there's the way to actually play it to avoid the dreaded "sucking effect" of the strings, for example. The "sucking effect" is also related to the quality of the patch and it's programming.
To play orchestral instrument live, you have to think like a player in an orchestra, or rather like the conductor. So playing full strings, one will have to think in 4-parts (violin, viola, cello, double bass). Each part is one note, or most 2 for violins (violins 1 and 2). Playing 3 notes in the cello range, for example, will naturally unrealistic to the ears.
MadWerewolfBoy
New member
Mmm quite cheem, maybe my keyboardist would understand what you guys have said better.
He's currently using a Roland Juno G and is hoping to get the SRX-06: Complete Orchestra Exp. Board in the near future.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=427
He's currently make-doing with the stock symphonic sounds which I find quite alright, but he says the bank's quite limited.
He's currently using a Roland Juno G and is hoping to get the SRX-06: Complete Orchestra Exp. Board in the near future.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=427
He's currently make-doing with the stock symphonic sounds which I find quite alright, but he says the bank's quite limited.
since1982
New member
Cheez, thanks for sharing! Btw when you mentioned softsamples do you mean using a laptop as well and not just the synth alone?
Also an expression pedal is..?
Cheez
Moderator
Yes since1982, softsamplers as in using laptops. With the right sampling engines, you can do key-switching/cross-fading/complex mapping making playing orchestral samples more fun, and of course, more realistic.
Expression pedals typcially control volume (ie "volume" pedal) but can be assigned to any other cc midi controls. In fact, I'm exploring the idea of using pedal boards (like those used by organ players) to trigger key-switching instead of the traditional keyboard, and so free my hands and fingers for other controls like the mod-wheel. There it goes...the secret is out! I believe this will give the keyboardist the ultimate control (mod-wheel + expression pedal + sustain pedal + additional switch pedal + pedal board + a 4-zone controller = ultimate control -> using all hands/fingers/feet). All that's left is the mouth - which is either reserved for singing or better still, the breath-controller.
Madwerewolfboy, the Complete Orchestra Expansion card is worthwhile to get. Besides certain celtic instruments, the strength is in certain strings (particularly full strings) and solo woodwinds (particularly the oboe and flute). However, if your keyboardist is going to focus on strings, then Symphonic Strings expansion may be worth considering as it's newer than the Complete Orchestra. The Complete Orchestra expansion comes from the JV series - Orchestra I and II expansions (of which both I used to own and used quite a lot in the past). Hence it's older, but still very useable and frequently used by people.
Expression pedals typcially control volume (ie "volume" pedal) but can be assigned to any other cc midi controls. In fact, I'm exploring the idea of using pedal boards (like those used by organ players) to trigger key-switching instead of the traditional keyboard, and so free my hands and fingers for other controls like the mod-wheel. There it goes...the secret is out! I believe this will give the keyboardist the ultimate control (mod-wheel + expression pedal + sustain pedal + additional switch pedal + pedal board + a 4-zone controller = ultimate control -> using all hands/fingers/feet). All that's left is the mouth - which is either reserved for singing or better still, the breath-controller.
Madwerewolfboy, the Complete Orchestra Expansion card is worthwhile to get. Besides certain celtic instruments, the strength is in certain strings (particularly full strings) and solo woodwinds (particularly the oboe and flute). However, if your keyboardist is going to focus on strings, then Symphonic Strings expansion may be worth considering as it's newer than the Complete Orchestra. The Complete Orchestra expansion comes from the JV series - Orchestra I and II expansions (of which both I used to own and used quite a lot in the past). Hence it's older, but still very useable and frequently used by people.
pf
New member
MadWereWolfBoy...
since your band is doing power symphonic metal, I think might need to check with the keyboardist if the question is really about the realism of the symphonic patches or is it because the keyboardist is not familiar with the way those patches should be used (Cheez previously mentioned certain things to note in how to play strings patch, etc).
If it is really playing strings but don't sound like a string player, would it be more practical for the keyboardist to learn how to use the exisiting symphonic patches to play as if its real strings, brass, whatever first instead of getting straight into software?
In my personal opinion, frankly speaking...since it is metal - its loud, its fast, the realism/quality of the patches matters less than the ability to sound like an orchastra with not so nice sounding instruments. So, maybe can fiddle with the expression pedal first. Thats a good idea from Cheez.
since your band is doing power symphonic metal, I think might need to check with the keyboardist if the question is really about the realism of the symphonic patches or is it because the keyboardist is not familiar with the way those patches should be used (Cheez previously mentioned certain things to note in how to play strings patch, etc).
If it is really playing strings but don't sound like a string player, would it be more practical for the keyboardist to learn how to use the exisiting symphonic patches to play as if its real strings, brass, whatever first instead of getting straight into software?
In my personal opinion, frankly speaking...since it is metal - its loud, its fast, the realism/quality of the patches matters less than the ability to sound like an orchastra with not so nice sounding instruments. So, maybe can fiddle with the expression pedal first. Thats a good idea from Cheez.
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Cheez
Moderator
In metal, if you need to play fast, you need string patches with fast attacks. By the way, there are also techniques in playing fast strings. If the piece shifts between fast and slow, you are in trouble. While one can keep switching patches, that's not ideal. The solution is softsamplers. They accomplish it by 2 ways - either key-switching (allowing you to switch patches super-fast by just hitting a designated key in the lower octave of the keyboard - and you don't get patches being cut off whie switching since all the patches are already pre-loaded), or if you are using a sampler with modeling technology (eg Garritan), then the software can automatically detects the playing style and switches from fast attacks like spiccatos/staccatos to the slower legatos/expressivos etc.
While the playing style is important, the patch is also very important. It's just impossible to play fast running string passages (for example) with a string patch with slow attack, and vice versa. You get terrible results.
If we're talking about strings, one way without going into software is to split the keyboard. Since we seldom use doublebasses, it's safe to assume that we can keep the patch playing in the middle to upper octaves. Map the upper half of the keybaord to a fast string patch and the lower half to a slower string patch. Not difficult with a little programming.
While the playing style is important, the patch is also very important. It's just impossible to play fast running string passages (for example) with a string patch with slow attack, and vice versa. You get terrible results.
If we're talking about strings, one way without going into software is to split the keyboard. Since we seldom use doublebasses, it's safe to assume that we can keep the patch playing in the middle to upper octaves. Map the upper half of the keybaord to a fast string patch and the lower half to a slower string patch. Not difficult with a little programming.
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