guitar refinishing help.
- Thread starter almondx
- Start date
In fact, my point was to highlight that furniture guys work with all sorts of woods and the other point is, furniture refinishing techniques are being used on guitars. So based on these facts, it is more plausible that you'll find a furniture refinish guy who is even more competent than a 'luthier'. The tone debate is pretty much useless because you have never heard a guitar before and after a refinish. And even if you have , you memory could be skewed into believing the refinshied/unfinished is better, depending on where your biasness leans to.
Most of the time, you just need to discuss with a wood finisher the possiblities. And a french polish on an electriic guitar is just a ridiculous idea, try posting this on other forums and see the response.
Most of the time, you just need to discuss with a wood finisher the possiblities. And a french polish on an electriic guitar is just a ridiculous idea, try posting this on other forums and see the response.
I'll check up with Malcolm if this "french polish on an electriic guitar is just a ridiculous idea". Since, its his name at stake here, not yours.
My point against yours is that a luthier would know, according to his ears, how much finish / what type of finish sounds best with different woods on a guitar, as he would have gone thru at least a hundred guitars, from start to finish. On that count of experience, I take a luthier over a furniture man, who despite maybe having more experience finishing wood, its for the sake of art/looks, not tone.
Whether my ears can tell the difference or whether that small bit of thickness makes a difference, I rather put my money on a luthier.
My point against yours is that a luthier would know, according to his ears, how much finish / what type of finish sounds best with different woods on a guitar, as he would have gone thru at least a hundred guitars, from start to finish. On that count of experience, I take a luthier over a furniture man, who despite maybe having more experience finishing wood, its for the sake of art/looks, not tone.
Whether my ears can tell the difference or whether that small bit of thickness makes a difference, I rather put my money on a luthier.
French polish on a PRS? You guys know what is a french finish? This is getting ridiculous.
Own a 5K guitar and not sending it back to an accredited body for the required tasks? It is like owning a SLK500. Get involved in a minor accident and sending it to one of those car workshops to have it fixed. It is the same analogy.
The tone issue will never end cuz it's subjective!
The debate on wood finisher vs luthier.... wood finisher wins hands down. The luthier needs the wood finisher's expertise on the best finish. Let the luthier decide and he/she will probably screw it up.
Own a 5K guitar and not sending it back to an accredited body for the required tasks? It is like owning a SLK500. Get involved in a minor accident and sending it to one of those car workshops to have it fixed. It is the same analogy.
The tone issue will never end cuz it's subjective!
The debate on wood finisher vs luthier.... wood finisher wins hands down. The luthier needs the wood finisher's expertise on the best finish. Let the luthier decide and he/she will probably screw it up.
If a guitar was not finished for looks, why the beautifully stained woods with a high gloss automobile like mirror finish. Are you telling me those are not furniture refinishing techniques? Give me some facts here, or I'll rather go grazing in the fields.
There are certainly 'udder' problems you didn't address such structural stability. Like why a neck should be hard finished, if not it would void most warrenties , i.e Warmoth's. Many a wood finish is chosen also for structural stability to protect against warpage, so the concept behind furniture and instrument finishing isn't too far apart. i will sign out here as there is no meaningful argument here. I still haven't got a clue from you as to why a certain type of finish's affects tone in particular ways. All your thesis said was to trust a luthier. Many people got burned for that due to overt trustworthiness and laziness to find out more from other luminiaries.
There are certainly 'udder' problems you didn't address such structural stability. Like why a neck should be hard finished, if not it would void most warrenties , i.e Warmoth's. Many a wood finish is chosen also for structural stability to protect against warpage, so the concept behind furniture and instrument finishing isn't too far apart. i will sign out here as there is no meaningful argument here. I still haven't got a clue from you as to why a certain type of finish's affects tone in particular ways. All your thesis said was to trust a luthier. Many people got burned for that due to overt trustworthiness and laziness to find out more from other luminiaries.
I didn't say guitars weren't for looks, I said, furniture finishers don't account of the tonal aspect of the wood, its just the looks for them.
And I'm not refuting your "furniture refinishing techniques used on guitars" point.
Like what I said, whether that small difference in finish thickness makes a real difference tonally to MY ears, I still rather put my money in a hands of a luthier than to go to a furniture guy.
I prefer an oil finish on guitars. Sounds better to me.
And btw, don't need to be condesending here bopakeh. :wink:
And I'm not refuting your "furniture refinishing techniques used on guitars" point.
Like what I said, whether that small difference in finish thickness makes a real difference tonally to MY ears, I still rather put my money in a hands of a luthier than to go to a furniture guy.
I prefer an oil finish on guitars. Sounds better to me.
And btw, don't need to be condesending here bopakeh. :wink:
angelmozart
New member
not to add oil to the already burning fire but its a fact there's plently of great 'finishers' in the industry today that did not start off on guitars.. namely those guys who worked with cars.. i dunno much abt cars but it make sense to me if u could finish a car i bet u can do so on a guitar. then the 'discussion' on the tonal factor cums in. obviously the best luthiers in the world can start a guitar from scratch (bare wood) to finish ( how abt a swirl :twisted: ) and it would still sound great but we all know unless yr guitar spell suhr or anderson or anyone along that lines, it wasnt exactly made by a luthier..
sorry to add the oil to fire but doesn't french polish get damage quick easily?
I'm not really an expert but I had observed some french polish guitars kenna dents and scratches and other damages and wearing off easily as compared with the other forms of polishing.
Therefore, I personally feel that french polish doesn't protect any guitar anyway... it just looks good but no protection..
But then, what do I know, unless we do a scenfitic test and gather enough samples to do a statistic test =)
How abt a binomal or Chi-Square test hehe
I'm not really an expert but I had observed some french polish guitars kenna dents and scratches and other damages and wearing off easily as compared with the other forms of polishing.
Therefore, I personally feel that french polish doesn't protect any guitar anyway... it just looks good but no protection..
But then, what do I know, unless we do a scenfitic test and gather enough samples to do a statistic test =)
How abt a binomal or Chi-Square test hehe
The cow's myopia must have gotten worse. I wonder why the cow didn't quote my take on tone being subjective. He is still hankering on the tone issue.
Nevermind the myopia....... and he goes and mentions that he prefers oil finish and it sounds better. Now, those reading this, the myopic cow can tell the difference in sound between an oil finished guitar look and a non-oil finished guitar!
He should share with all of us on how he does that! Simply unbelieveable hearing skills! Maybe being myopic heightens the hearing powers!
Nevermind the myopia....... and he goes and mentions that he prefers oil finish and it sounds better. Now, those reading this, the myopic cow can tell the difference in sound between an oil finished guitar look and a non-oil finished guitar!
He should share with all of us on how he does that! Simply unbelieveable hearing skills! Maybe being myopic heightens the hearing powers!
so let me get the equation right
damaged finish + good furniture painter + good repair job to the finish + correct thickness of coat + oil finish + not french polish = bad repair job cos it screws up the tone ?
damaged finish + good luthier + not so good repair job to the finish + french polish = nicely repaired finish + good tone?
if this isnt messy , i dont know what is
damaged finish + good furniture painter + good repair job to the finish + correct thickness of coat + oil finish + not french polish = bad repair job cos it screws up the tone ?
damaged finish + good luthier + not so good repair job to the finish + french polish = nicely repaired finish + good tone?
if this isnt messy , i dont know what is
shreddedsweeper
New member
haha im believe there sure is difference althought i cant hear much difference myself :lol: Its hard to compare you see, 2 excalt same spec guitar can sound different, so its abit unfair to compare between 2 different guitar, unless you got some insane memory that you could hear the guitar in oil finish and compare later after being refinish in poly. Or you can record it down. But i do believe there is difference
a finish is a finish.... too thick is definitely detrimental to tone. But take note one cannot spray ONE uber thick layer on at the same time. it has to be 2-3 coats etc...
so if the type of finish is confirmed. the thickness can be varied by adjusting the number of layers of coating.
A luthier may charge more simply cus he is specialised in handling guitars. a furniture guy will be cheaper i guess. to him its just spraying/polishing a small chunk of wood compared to cupboards and coffee tables. Technically speaking the furniture dude will do a better job.
so if the type of finish is confirmed. the thickness can be varied by adjusting the number of layers of coating.
A luthier may charge more simply cus he is specialised in handling guitars. a furniture guy will be cheaper i guess. to him its just spraying/polishing a small chunk of wood compared to cupboards and coffee tables. Technically speaking the furniture dude will do a better job.
Beefy said:
Shredcow said:
Maybe you are being myopic?
Maybe its a little late for you too? I know tone is oh-so subjective, and I simply asked, would a luthier who takes into consideration the tonal aspect of wood when finishing, be preferable to a wood finisher who does not have tone in his equation.
And as what you say, tone is subjective, and I believe that oiled finishes have a specific sound, and sound better. Can I voice my opinion here? :wink:
Ah well... whats it with all this rude people here? Having a discussion like this is no fun.... the only serious point that, that warrents some form of rebuttle is bopakeh's, unidentified dude, comment that "french polish on an electriic guitar is just a ridiculous idea", which is a blow to Malcom's reputation.
Oh, and yeah, different type of finish = different tone, pretty hard to grasp huh? :roll:
Facts about French polish:
1. Looks more natural compared to poly. Poly looks like a layer of plastic over the wood hence the french polish will have a visible contrast with the poly finish. The contrast here will be between the top and the back and sides on the PRS.
2. French polish is easily repaired and can be applied very thinly by a skilled finisher. The layers 'burn' into easy other very well, and repairs are usually invisible.
3. However it is also a delicate finish and will ding and scratch easily, hence the choice of poly for an Electric guitar like a PRS. Exquisite classical guitars use french polish for tonal reasons as well as looks. Why would anyone french polish an electric guitar? Because it's the only form finish they can provide?
Consider point 2 and 3, since French polish as a finish is so delicate and takes a long time to fully harden ( > 6mths), its makes sense for a business like repair man or luthier to consider it for an electric guitar, since the electric guitar will get knocked around much more than a 10k Hermann Hauser.
Shredcow: I'm guessing almondx is grossly affected by any dings on his guitar, and French polish will not live not to his expectations. However he can always send it back to whoever finishes it with French polish every 3 months or so. Brilliant I say.
1. Looks more natural compared to poly. Poly looks like a layer of plastic over the wood hence the french polish will have a visible contrast with the poly finish. The contrast here will be between the top and the back and sides on the PRS.
2. French polish is easily repaired and can be applied very thinly by a skilled finisher. The layers 'burn' into easy other very well, and repairs are usually invisible.
3. However it is also a delicate finish and will ding and scratch easily, hence the choice of poly for an Electric guitar like a PRS. Exquisite classical guitars use french polish for tonal reasons as well as looks. Why would anyone french polish an electric guitar? Because it's the only form finish they can provide?
Consider point 2 and 3, since French polish as a finish is so delicate and takes a long time to fully harden ( > 6mths), its makes sense for a business like repair man or luthier to consider it for an electric guitar, since the electric guitar will get knocked around much more than a 10k Hermann Hauser.
Shredcow: I'm guessing almondx is grossly affected by any dings on his guitar, and French polish will not live not to his expectations. However he can always send it back to whoever finishes it with French polish every 3 months or so. Brilliant I say.
let me see.
point we all agree on :
1) tone is subjective
2) type of finishing affects tone
in simpler terms , what shred cow is saying is, different finishing = change to tone.
in even simpler terms, what everyone else is trying to tell him, is that his perception that the tone will be radically altered is incorrect. it may be a result of preconcieved set of bias as tone , adhereing to the first fundamental truth agreed hereupon by all of us , is subjective. this is because each of us percieves the tone of each guitar differently. maybe the guitar could sound the same to the threadstarter even if it with finished and repaired with a different finish ? the once perfect polyurethane coat may not actually give the owner a tonal variation vis a vis the repaired finish with french polishing.
it all boils down to what the owner would hear and feel when playing his PRS.any further speculation upon it is at best, redundant and at worst, idiocity. the biggest irony here is that while we are all thumping each other to the death over the tonal aspect of the finish, the owner/threadstarter himself has implied the primary aim of the refinishing is for asthetic/cosmetic reasons. tone and its implicated variations and subject to personal tastes and whims, is a secondary and much irrelevant concern.
isnt the logic flow apparent even if you dont understand the mechanics of the argument ? since tone is subjective(first fundamental truth) and if you adhere to that truth, that renders point number 2) invalid as there is no consistent basis for comparison.
score : beefy,bopakeh 1
cow 0
point we all agree on :
1) tone is subjective
2) type of finishing affects tone
in simpler terms , what shred cow is saying is, different finishing = change to tone.
in even simpler terms, what everyone else is trying to tell him, is that his perception that the tone will be radically altered is incorrect. it may be a result of preconcieved set of bias as tone , adhereing to the first fundamental truth agreed hereupon by all of us , is subjective. this is because each of us percieves the tone of each guitar differently. maybe the guitar could sound the same to the threadstarter even if it with finished and repaired with a different finish ? the once perfect polyurethane coat may not actually give the owner a tonal variation vis a vis the repaired finish with french polishing.
it all boils down to what the owner would hear and feel when playing his PRS.any further speculation upon it is at best, redundant and at worst, idiocity. the biggest irony here is that while we are all thumping each other to the death over the tonal aspect of the finish, the owner/threadstarter himself has implied the primary aim of the refinishing is for asthetic/cosmetic reasons. tone and its implicated variations and subject to personal tastes and whims, is a secondary and much irrelevant concern.
isnt the logic flow apparent even if you dont understand the mechanics of the argument ? since tone is subjective(first fundamental truth) and if you adhere to that truth, that renders point number 2) invalid as there is no consistent basis for comparison.
score : beefy,bopakeh 1
cow 0
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