Gig openings... hah....
- Thread starter WandaFoo
- Start date
TheGuillotine
New member
fgl
Well-known member
Wanda has some valid points - I'm with her on the not selling tickets or paying to play in gigs stance. We'd do freebie sows for charity etc or even jam a whole set somewhere if we're in the mood but we'd never pay to play.
I do realise of course that "the times are a changing" ... in fact I was having this discussion recently with a well known "cari makan" musician from the 80s whose son is actually in an upcoming band now. Musos from his / my era would absolutely never entertain such ideas but the scene has evolved so much these days with so many acts wanting a platform to perform, I guess it sort of becomes inevitable. And while I do not support this message of paying to play, I certainly wont discourage any up and coming bands who persues this avenue in an effort to garner exposure and markatability. It's a question of choices really ....
I do realise of course that "the times are a changing" ... in fact I was having this discussion recently with a well known "cari makan" musician from the 80s whose son is actually in an upcoming band now. Musos from his / my era would absolutely never entertain such ideas but the scene has evolved so much these days with so many acts wanting a platform to perform, I guess it sort of becomes inevitable. And while I do not support this message of paying to play, I certainly wont discourage any up and coming bands who persues this avenue in an effort to garner exposure and markatability. It's a question of choices really ....
shinobi
New member
pot?? u crazy ah
pills and mushrooms still not wasted yet is it
anyway the scene is like the bedroom. after years of the same old thing, quality is still not good enough. you need to come up with some kinky creative gimmick to spice things up. because you dunno ah, singapore people generally have bad taste. but they lap up all this mindless marketing shit
pills and mushrooms still not wasted yet is it
anyway the scene is like the bedroom. after years of the same old thing, quality is still not good enough. you need to come up with some kinky creative gimmick to spice things up. because you dunno ah, singapore people generally have bad taste. but they lap up all this mindless marketing shit
wanda have some points true...
but it is still goin to be the same for some gigs.
to put it nicely, if u have to sell... discuss wif ur band... if dun agree then dun play
and dun expect the organiser to pay u. unless u r one big shot.or a regular entertainer.
my band nvr play gigs where we have to sell tickets coz we got no1 to sell to...
AND
we nvr ask for any payments unless stated.
built ur portfolio up. be it a gig for charity or wateva.
gain the experience... then the 'big' organisers can trust u
or go carry balls
but it is still goin to be the same for some gigs.
to put it nicely, if u have to sell... discuss wif ur band... if dun agree then dun play
and dun expect the organiser to pay u. unless u r one big shot.or a regular entertainer.
my band nvr play gigs where we have to sell tickets coz we got no1 to sell to...
AND
we nvr ask for any payments unless stated.
built ur portfolio up. be it a gig for charity or wateva.
gain the experience... then the 'big' organisers can trust u
or go carry balls
billthegeek
New member
What's wrong with paying to play at gigs?
Where there is demand, there's supply. I'm sure there are bands who are willing to pay to play at all. If both the consumer and seller agree on the price and product, I don't see what is wrong.
The terms and conditions between the band and the organizer are usually laid out clearly before agreement. If the band agrees, then everything is fine. And if you don't like paying/selling tix to play, well, then you can choose not to work with that organizer.
Where there is demand, there's supply. I'm sure there are bands who are willing to pay to play at all. If both the consumer and seller agree on the price and product, I don't see what is wrong.
The terms and conditions between the band and the organizer are usually laid out clearly before agreement. If the band agrees, then everything is fine. And if you don't like paying/selling tix to play, well, then you can choose not to work with that organizer.
WandaFoo
New member
woah.. lol
Hey guys,
Kinda posted on a whim, one of my lyrical days with too much in mind.
mm.. this model, works in Singapore because... the Singaporean musicians are affluent enough, and have friends who are affluent enough for this model to work out. Try using this method of gigging in a different country, with similar kinda price point...
But yes, we're in Singapore. So if this business model works why not? Well, I think it simply isn't ethical. Why? Because the bands are being ripped off due to their youth, ignorance, desperation arising from an insatiable appetite for performing.
My purpose in posting:
1. Hopefully without demand there wouldn't be supply. If bands get more demanding, wake up to the reality that they are being made use of... hopefully we can reduce if not eliminate unethical profiteers.
2. Just a whim.
3. So that gig organizers of this nature can refrain from contacting me and wasting my time.
Note though, I do have humility, in the sense I do admit there are better bands and musicians out there and I need to improve. Issue here is, even though I'm not brilliant, I refuse to be cheated of my time and effort.
Reap what you sow. Nothing less, nothing more.
Hey guys,
Kinda posted on a whim, one of my lyrical days with too much in mind.
mm.. this model, works in Singapore because... the Singaporean musicians are affluent enough, and have friends who are affluent enough for this model to work out. Try using this method of gigging in a different country, with similar kinda price point...
But yes, we're in Singapore. So if this business model works why not? Well, I think it simply isn't ethical. Why? Because the bands are being ripped off due to their youth, ignorance, desperation arising from an insatiable appetite for performing.
My purpose in posting:
1. Hopefully without demand there wouldn't be supply. If bands get more demanding, wake up to the reality that they are being made use of... hopefully we can reduce if not eliminate unethical profiteers.
2. Just a whim.
3. So that gig organizers of this nature can refrain from contacting me and wasting my time.
Note though, I do have humility, in the sense I do admit there are better bands and musicians out there and I need to improve. Issue here is, even though I'm not brilliant, I refuse to be cheated of my time and effort.
Reap what you sow. Nothing less, nothing more.
Have you guys ever thought that it's the audience's problem?
It's the biggest problem that no one supports the bands and as a result, the organizers have to impose the regulation on tickets on the bands. The audience in Singapore is really small and unlike other places like America, Australia and even Malaysia, our audience is less supportive and less appreciative.
But if you're talking about pop music, it's another thing.
It's the biggest problem that no one supports the bands and as a result, the organizers have to impose the regulation on tickets on the bands. The audience in Singapore is really small and unlike other places like America, Australia and even Malaysia, our audience is less supportive and less appreciative.
But if you're talking about pop music, it's another thing.
Ized
New member
most organisers nowadays are taking bands for granted i feel.....
In the old days, even my dad who plays in small clubs with his band(comprised formerly of Francis, former lead guitarist of Heritage) they would at least get covered for their transport and drinks.
Nowadays, unless if your band is a big name like electrico, ronin or the suns or sth, forget about getting paid, and be prepared to work your ass off selling tickets.
Not trying to put anyone down or deter young bands, but sadly this is the scene nowadays.
In the old days, even my dad who plays in small clubs with his band(comprised formerly of Francis, former lead guitarist of Heritage) they would at least get covered for their transport and drinks.
Nowadays, unless if your band is a big name like electrico, ronin or the suns or sth, forget about getting paid, and be prepared to work your ass off selling tickets.
Not trying to put anyone down or deter young bands, but sadly this is the scene nowadays.
visa
New member
it's very easy for everybody to blame somebody else.
the fact is that there simply aren't as many people interested in live music, so live musicians simply don't get as much pay or attention, so promoters will have to get harsher. back then, people would choose to go to a bar with a live band, nowadays most people prefer club music. even if you have a crowd, if they're not going to buy drinks, what's the point?
it's a big cycle and blaming any one cog in the wheel is not going to fix anything.
it takes collective effort from everybody. we can all put in the effort to make our position a little more comfortable, and then get into one where we can help others as well.
the fact is that there simply aren't as many people interested in live music, so live musicians simply don't get as much pay or attention, so promoters will have to get harsher. back then, people would choose to go to a bar with a live band, nowadays most people prefer club music. even if you have a crowd, if they're not going to buy drinks, what's the point?
it's a big cycle and blaming any one cog in the wheel is not going to fix anything.
it takes collective effort from everybody. we can all put in the effort to make our position a little more comfortable, and then get into one where we can help others as well.
=billthegeek
Its a matter of choice really , but i feel the pain for up coming musicians and they're parents . They have to pay for instruments which arent exactly close to cheap , then strings and jamming ... the whole enchalata then they have to pay for gigs . The cycle is a little unfair dont you think
Its a matter of choice really , but i feel the pain for up coming musicians and they're parents . They have to pay for instruments which arent exactly close to cheap , then strings and jamming ... the whole enchalata then they have to pay for gigs . The cycle is a little unfair dont you think
Ized
New member
haha well yes i've alr recognised that fact as i've already stated that bands need to do their part. hence selling tickets is part of the equation...even though this something no one likes to do.
its simple economics, supply and demand we'r talking about here.
the thing is whether isit a right thing to do.....whether is it fair and ethical to bands.....but well, come to think of it, nothing is ever fair in life anyways.
tough luck for us i guess.
its simple economics, supply and demand we'r talking about here.
the thing is whether isit a right thing to do.....whether is it fair and ethical to bands.....but well, come to think of it, nothing is ever fair in life anyways.
tough luck for us i guess.
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Ized
New member
Visa your argument quite nonsense la. *kidding*
Allow me to voice a concrete solution. Don say i dint think thru the issue and just complain dimwits.
I believe an concrete solution would be transparency-organisers need to share with bands why do they need to sell tickets and exactly how the tickets sold would help to cover costs, and the profit margins, overheads and all involved. this way both bands and organisers can benefit from a mutual understanding such as this. Sharing and open dissemination of information is the key.
maybe organisers can take a hint or two from this.
Allow me to voice a concrete solution. Don say i dint think thru the issue and just complain dimwits.
I believe an concrete solution would be transparency-organisers need to share with bands why do they need to sell tickets and exactly how the tickets sold would help to cover costs, and the profit margins, overheads and all involved. this way both bands and organisers can benefit from a mutual understanding such as this. Sharing and open dissemination of information is the key.
maybe organisers can take a hint or two from this.
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WandaFoo
New member
What is my point?
The thread start, was just a kick-off.. :mrgreen: senseless rambling if you will, to capture the attention of enough people for this topic to be regarded as something vaguely important.
Allow me to first put up several disclaimers:
1. I am not saying it is absolutely WRONG to sell tickets.
2. I have nothing against most gig organizers. I organize events myself. Gigs, charity, camps, bonding nonsense alike.. I know what it is like. (this is to those people who ASSUME I am someone who just blabbers.... morons.. well I guess it is your right if you want to continue assuming, possibly accusing me of lying.. not that it bothers me... but it'd be nice if someone would believe me)
3. Am not naming organizers who have approached me with their ridiculous proposals, because I do believe everybody deserves to have time to make amends.
4. I am chilled..
just think the whole thing is absurd, so I am saying something about it.
5. It's no one's fault this started. But I think it's better if it stops.
6. Yes I am a chick, bruddas. But gender is not an issue here.
Point here.. Yes, I'd gig for free.. but pay to gig
Gigging for FREE already is an investment of time/effort... the returns are publicity, and stress relief.
For that same amount of returns, bands are now required to PAY to gig...
A band isn't just the 4-5 of you.. It's all the support you get from your back end, sound crew, designers, most which are family and friends. As it is, making time to go to your gig, they ARE doing you a favour. and they still have to purchase overpriced tickets???? :???:
Dear bands... Please have a lil more respect for yourselves and the people who support you. Unless your ticket is value for money, in the sense ya performing at a place with good environment (minimum requirement is a place with standing AND sitting areas, food/drinks, unless you're part of something as big as SingFest.. where it's ok to let everyone sit on the floor) and ya got a special price for your family and friends, or even better, if ya have free tickets, then it's cool... I'd think it's perfectly logical if I have to pay something like $8-$12 bucks at a place like that, even if I just get a free soft drink... Rather than apprx the same price, or a lil less.. at some XXX jam studio. Remember, there's no guarantee I'm gonna hear good music since there's not much filtering....
*some of these organizers.. don't talk about being musicians.. they hardly have any clue about what the local music market/scene is like...*
If it's not something the public will pay for.. why are you asking the people who should matter to you most, to pay for it. Don't take advantage of the good nature of people who support you.
To organizers:
I know how tough it gets, I organized my band's gig before, I've organized larger scale events for schools and such. Just don't get lazy and complacent just because it is possible to get the bands to sell tickets... Organizers should be finding the means to sell tickets.... to raise funds... not the bands...
Be transparent. Don't tell me you're just covering costs when I know obviously you ARE profitting via the numbers, or you have very lousy sourcing.... Be competitive as organizers so you can attract good bands, because your gigs have reasonable coverage, and you may not have to pay the bands, but you still can profit from ticket sales or sponsorships. Reward the bands at will, but don't take the lazy way out, and sit your bum around, profitting from the sheer efforts of these young musicians.
That's my take. There are a ton of companies out there who can pay for these gigs and if it is good publicity, they certainly are willing to. If you still want to be unscrupulous, it's cool.. there are alot of people like you in the world.
If you want to lie to yourself, and say that it's ok to pay to gig, cause of whatever excuses you can come up with, my suggestion is to relook at your strategy as an uprising band.. or even if you don't, it's cool.. cause that means less competition for me.
Like I said before.. reap what you sow, nothing less, nothing more.
The thread start, was just a kick-off.. :mrgreen: senseless rambling if you will, to capture the attention of enough people for this topic to be regarded as something vaguely important.
Allow me to first put up several disclaimers:
1. I am not saying it is absolutely WRONG to sell tickets.
2. I have nothing against most gig organizers. I organize events myself. Gigs, charity, camps, bonding nonsense alike.. I know what it is like. (this is to those people who ASSUME I am someone who just blabbers.... morons.. well I guess it is your right if you want to continue assuming, possibly accusing me of lying.. not that it bothers me... but it'd be nice if someone would believe me)
3. Am not naming organizers who have approached me with their ridiculous proposals, because I do believe everybody deserves to have time to make amends.
4. I am chilled..
just think the whole thing is absurd, so I am saying something about it.5. It's no one's fault this started. But I think it's better if it stops.
6. Yes I am a chick, bruddas. But gender is not an issue here.
Point here.. Yes, I'd gig for free.. but pay to gig
Gigging for FREE already is an investment of time/effort... the returns are publicity, and stress relief.
For that same amount of returns, bands are now required to PAY to gig...
A band isn't just the 4-5 of you.. It's all the support you get from your back end, sound crew, designers, most which are family and friends. As it is, making time to go to your gig, they ARE doing you a favour. and they still have to purchase overpriced tickets???? :???:
Dear bands... Please have a lil more respect for yourselves and the people who support you. Unless your ticket is value for money, in the sense ya performing at a place with good environment (minimum requirement is a place with standing AND sitting areas, food/drinks, unless you're part of something as big as SingFest.. where it's ok to let everyone sit on the floor) and ya got a special price for your family and friends, or even better, if ya have free tickets, then it's cool... I'd think it's perfectly logical if I have to pay something like $8-$12 bucks at a place like that, even if I just get a free soft drink... Rather than apprx the same price, or a lil less.. at some XXX jam studio. Remember, there's no guarantee I'm gonna hear good music since there's not much filtering....
*some of these organizers.. don't talk about being musicians.. they hardly have any clue about what the local music market/scene is like...*
If it's not something the public will pay for.. why are you asking the people who should matter to you most, to pay for it. Don't take advantage of the good nature of people who support you.
To organizers:
I know how tough it gets, I organized my band's gig before, I've organized larger scale events for schools and such. Just don't get lazy and complacent just because it is possible to get the bands to sell tickets... Organizers should be finding the means to sell tickets.... to raise funds... not the bands...
Be transparent. Don't tell me you're just covering costs when I know obviously you ARE profitting via the numbers, or you have very lousy sourcing.... Be competitive as organizers so you can attract good bands, because your gigs have reasonable coverage, and you may not have to pay the bands, but you still can profit from ticket sales or sponsorships. Reward the bands at will, but don't take the lazy way out, and sit your bum around, profitting from the sheer efforts of these young musicians.
That's my take. There are a ton of companies out there who can pay for these gigs and if it is good publicity, they certainly are willing to. If you still want to be unscrupulous, it's cool.. there are alot of people like you in the world.
If you want to lie to yourself, and say that it's ok to pay to gig, cause of whatever excuses you can come up with, my suggestion is to relook at your strategy as an uprising band.. or even if you don't, it's cool.. cause that means less competition for me.
Like I said before.. reap what you sow, nothing less, nothing more.
WandaFoo, do you have some figures to back up your claim about how gig organisers are 'profiting'?
Stuff like admin cost, venue cost, sound and MI cost, promotion, number of tickets to break-even ...
It would be good reference for non-gig-organisers to understand the business better.
Stuff like admin cost, venue cost, sound and MI cost, promotion, number of tickets to break-even ...
It would be good reference for non-gig-organisers to understand the business better.
WandaFoo
New member
Dear adminstrator,
There are so many scales for such events it would be quite time consuming for me to come up with an entire comparitive chart for this purpose. (and even if I did *grin* from a business point of view, I wouldn't post it up for the whole world, but just those who matter to me)
Administrative cost: If you are talking about an organizer for some of these studio gigs, they are lone wolfs. Paper, pens, some files to keep things in order. -$10 hah...
Venue cost: Depends on how resourceful you are. If you're good... you can get a FREE venue.... Where and how, I am not stating. If you wanna be stubborn and shoot me off cause I refuse to do so... It'd be better off if you start thinking how, imo.
Sound equipment: Basic functional equipment for OUTDOORS.. probably max max max1k.... again depending on how resourceful you are, and how you prioritise/eliminate unnecessary equipment. Am talking about drums, amps, cables, speakers, feedback monitor, mixer, mics+++, enough for a 5 piece band. (includes sound crew for those hours, who will run and arrange stuff for you)
But these gigs are INDOORS, small venues, eliminating more equipment like full drum mic up, need for excellent mics, or huge super power speaker systems (in layman terms). Rental and delivery.. could be within a couple of hundred dollars.. max up to $700. Some gigs are at studios were there is no need for transportation!!!
Promotion: Simple, POST YOUR AD HERE! it's FREE! spam your friends. Stick posters in schools where ya know ppl, and ya can get permission to. Budget: anything from 0 - $50 would be sensible.
Profit made: assuming it's a gig where the total from ticket sales is about $1200, profit that goes to organizer, could be anything from $300 onwards, depending on his/her sourcing... and this is a VERY conservative figure.... Get sponsors, more money. He/she have better lobang than I do for equipment. More money. And the end result usually ain't all that great.... ya get family/friends coming down... most of em just wanna watch that 1 band they bought tickets from...
1. Ppl who have been doing these things.. have been doing so more often, for a longer time than I have. They are likely to have better lobang for EVERYTHING.
2. If you are one of these organizers, and you're not making the stated profit... I'd ask you to relook at your sourcing, and work harder at cutting prices so bands cooperating with you need not suffer..
3. If you are resourceful.. and you get enough sponsors.. You need not even sell tickets to break-even.......
FYI, am one of those ppl who have no time for much leisure besides music.. So its school, work and music... This isn't even my profession.. gig organizing... No reason why people who do it for profit can't do it better.
Another way could be perhaps to make all the accounts clear, so that if there are loses, bands and organizer bear loses together, if there are profits, everyone shares. There are so many ways to organize gigs.. I just don't like the lazy way out.
Hopefully I've been informative enough... only am posting this much cause I feel it's vaguely meaningful if bands stop getting extorted... *cross fingers* this is my last post about this matter I hope...
Please direct all other queries to my msn: fresh_apricotz@hotmail.com... or to send me stupid spam cause you don't like me very much.. LOL *note though, I have junk filter and block function* *grin*
There are so many scales for such events it would be quite time consuming for me to come up with an entire comparitive chart for this purpose. (and even if I did *grin* from a business point of view, I wouldn't post it up for the whole world, but just those who matter to me)
Administrative cost: If you are talking about an organizer for some of these studio gigs, they are lone wolfs. Paper, pens, some files to keep things in order. -$10 hah...
Venue cost: Depends on how resourceful you are. If you're good... you can get a FREE venue.... Where and how, I am not stating. If you wanna be stubborn and shoot me off cause I refuse to do so... It'd be better off if you start thinking how, imo.
Sound equipment: Basic functional equipment for OUTDOORS.. probably max max max1k.... again depending on how resourceful you are, and how you prioritise/eliminate unnecessary equipment. Am talking about drums, amps, cables, speakers, feedback monitor, mixer, mics+++, enough for a 5 piece band. (includes sound crew for those hours, who will run and arrange stuff for you)
But these gigs are INDOORS, small venues, eliminating more equipment like full drum mic up, need for excellent mics, or huge super power speaker systems (in layman terms). Rental and delivery.. could be within a couple of hundred dollars.. max up to $700. Some gigs are at studios were there is no need for transportation!!!
Promotion: Simple, POST YOUR AD HERE! it's FREE! spam your friends. Stick posters in schools where ya know ppl, and ya can get permission to. Budget: anything from 0 - $50 would be sensible.
Profit made: assuming it's a gig where the total from ticket sales is about $1200, profit that goes to organizer, could be anything from $300 onwards, depending on his/her sourcing... and this is a VERY conservative figure.... Get sponsors, more money. He/she have better lobang than I do for equipment. More money. And the end result usually ain't all that great.... ya get family/friends coming down... most of em just wanna watch that 1 band they bought tickets from...
1. Ppl who have been doing these things.. have been doing so more often, for a longer time than I have. They are likely to have better lobang for EVERYTHING.
2. If you are one of these organizers, and you're not making the stated profit... I'd ask you to relook at your sourcing, and work harder at cutting prices so bands cooperating with you need not suffer..
3. If you are resourceful.. and you get enough sponsors.. You need not even sell tickets to break-even.......
FYI, am one of those ppl who have no time for much leisure besides music.. So its school, work and music... This isn't even my profession.. gig organizing... No reason why people who do it for profit can't do it better.
Another way could be perhaps to make all the accounts clear, so that if there are loses, bands and organizer bear loses together, if there are profits, everyone shares. There are so many ways to organize gigs.. I just don't like the lazy way out.
Hopefully I've been informative enough... only am posting this much cause I feel it's vaguely meaningful if bands stop getting extorted... *cross fingers* this is my last post about this matter I hope...
Please direct all other queries to my msn: fresh_apricotz@hotmail.com... or to send me stupid spam cause you don't like me very much.. LOL *note though, I have junk filter and block function* *grin*
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