Why the local scene sucks...

[theliverevolution]

But in actual fact,they dont even wanna give Local act a chance to prove them wrong.

Agreed. Most Singaporeans are still stuck on the idea that "foreign talent" is still better

 

[Jerseystar]

You know we've mentioned how much it costs to make a record today in Singapore so that's why we should support local bands and hence buy their CD's to somehow reimburse them for their expenditure?

How about from the engineers point of view? Are we willing to lower our fees to accommodate this? For the sake of the 'local scene'. If one such engineer would do this, well he would spoil the market for other engineers and hence also do a disservice to the production side of the 'scene'. But here's my take. Some of you know my stand pertaining to the music industry and education etc that if you really were passionate about it do it for free. I actually wouldn't mind producing a good band even for free cos I would do it and do do it for the passion, the problem here is I've never encountered a band worth producing. Maybe they are out there but then you meet some of these bands and they give you an attitude or are stuck up so no point in helping out.

The other problem that faces engineers these days is that everybody and his brother can actually record themselves in their bedrooms but usually they don't have proper grounding in digital audio and hence mix by trial and error and as a result the album itself sounds like shit. Thus contributing to the whole cycle of why our scene is bad.

 

[bobby]

Don't worry about the listeners, media or bands if you just want to make music. If you want to sell music for profit, that's another story.

Music is something that cannot be forced upon. Just like local film. How many here watches local tv production? or local movie production? local musicals? local dance? SSO?

We look at them as local but to a foreigner, we are "International" or "Foreign Language".

The local music scene is at a all time high now. We might be the county that has the highest musical instrument ownership! Highest number of bands per million too! (this part i add for fun)

While what you are saying is undeniably true (and a very good optimistic approach to looking at things), the indisputable fact remains that although we are numerous in interested musicians-to-be, our infrastructure remains shackled by the limitations of 1) Singaporean's overall 'bo-chap' attitude 2) A feasible way to sustain a musician's long-invested interest, both financially and idealistically.

That is the crux of the matter at hand and the main point I was trying to elaborate on in this post. I do not doubt that the scene is 'thriving', but for how many generations have we heard this same idealogy before? Back in the '60s and '70s, the music scene was thriving. Back in the '80s and '90s with the rise of various prominent indie bands, we were saying the same thing - 'the scene is thriving!'.

But, to phrase it metaphorically, planting flowers in a desert, no matter how numerous those seeds may be, will inevitably lead to their deaths. Not from lack of interest (in planting the seeds), not from lack of trying (many workers working to plant the seeds), but from the harsh and unsuitable climate that surrounds it.

You are, however, right in pointing out that the general INTEREST in music is at an 'all time high'. However, interest does not equate to sustainability, nor does interest, without the proper structure and tangible output, contribute to building an industry.

I applaud optimism, and I admire the gung-ho attitude needed to rally behind a cause. But until there is a significant change in both the attitude of the general population - an overly pragmatic demographic conditioned to believe in a fix way of walking down the path of life - the poignant fact is unchanged; Singaporeans just don't care. And sadly, the immediate future seems bleak because there are limited signs that indicate the change of this social stigma. We are locked in a mental incubator.

And to back this argument up, a simple research into the genuine viability of the 'top-tier' bands in Singapore is all that is necessary. Are we mindlessly all striving for the same saddle that ironically, have straddled us down for generations?

 

[soft]

We can put ourselves in the shoe of a food hawker running a stall in a hawker centre.

Why do customers buy our food and not from the next stall?

The need for consumption is there. The choice of consumption is also available. Hopefully our food suits the customers' tastes.

 

[theliverevolution]

How about from the engineers point of view? Are we willing to lower our fees to accommodate this? For the sake of the 'local scene'. If one such engineer would do this, well he would spoil the market for other engineers and hence also do a disservice to the production side of the 'scene'. But here's my take. Some of you know my stand pertaining to the music industry and education etc that if you really were passionate about it do it for free. I actually wouldn't mind producing a good band even for free cos I would do it and do do it for the passion, the problem here is I've never encountered a band worth producing. Maybe they are out there but then you meet some of these bands and they give you an attitude or are stuck up so no point in helping out.

The other problem that faces engineers these days is that everybody and his brother can actually record themselves in their bedrooms but usually they don't have proper grounding in digital audio and hence mix by trial and error and as a result the album itself sounds like shit. Thus contributing to the whole cycle of why our scene is bad.

Yes, which also leads to another problem, that producing music isn't free.
We as musicians face a problem of always been financially strapped, cause we need to buy our various equipment all the time. The problem is, there is little avenue for us to earn back the amount spent. Our cash outflow is going to be a thousand times bigger than the cash inflow we get back from doing music.
But as producers, it is relatively much easier to gain back the outflow via the inflow. I must admit, that producing is hard work, and that producers have every right to be paid their dues. Yes, "spoiling" the market will be unfair as well.

But, how often do producers do work for free?

Even for good bands, many producers expect to be paid. Not that anyone is complaining, after all, it is their livelihood. But the amount we as musicians have to fork out sometimes is quite a lot. One day can cost up to $500, $600, maybe more depending on the type of recording we want.

It is with little wonder that many people are resorting to recording their own stuff at home, where there is more room for trial and error.

Yes, I recognize that a dip in price will spoil the market, but if everyone (musicians and producers) is willing to just sacrifice a little here and there, then at least a lot more people will be satisfied and things will work out better as well

 

[bobby]

We can put ourselves in the shoe of a food hawker running a stall in a hawker centre.

Why do customers buy our food and not from the next stall?

The need for consumption is there. The choice of consumption is also available. Hopefully our food suits the customers' tastes.

Using that same analogy and elaborating with an example, there can be two separate food stalls, Stall A and Stall B, both serving equally good dishes of a similar variety, for example, chicken rice.

But because Stall A's chicken rice is more widely accepted than Stall B, Stall A does significantly better than B. Also, because people have been given the impression that eating at Stall A is more worth their while (even though they both sell good chicken rice), their likeliness of switching to Stall B is minimal at best.

And here is the significant reason why Stall B will never do as well as Stall A. The owner of Stall B, just like the very same consumers he hopes to attract, also has bought into the mentality that Stall A is better than his own, and does little to curb the consumer's enthusiasm for Stall A.

Instead he is content with his smaller number of customers and 'hopes for the best', that eventually his son might do better, or his grandson when he takes over the family business. But he does nothing - no plans, no reapproaching of business ideas, no additional commitment, nothing - for the fear that his work input might go unrewarded in the immediate future.

Meanwhile, encouraged by his increasing success, the owner of Stall A dives deeper into the art of making chicken rice and further improves his cooking, eventually making Stall A's dishes better. And so the momentum shifts further into Stall A's favor.

Now, replace Stall A with the words 'foreign music' and Stall B with the words 'local music', and you may understand what I'm trying to get at. Without the right mental approach both from within the willpower of Stall B's owner, coupled with the disinterest of his potential customers, how will Stall B ever break out from this cycle?

To be blinded by a 'hope for the best' attitude for a deceivingly 'flourishing' local scene will lead us into a lull and contentment that is grafted only to wild but misspent optimism.

 

[hecklerkoch]

Say.. isn't Stefanie Sun, JJ Lin and Taufik Batisah considered 'local' too?

Hell, these singers have made it big and why can't all of whom makes up this 'local scene' which we are lamenting on its predicament be the same?

Whenever I let loose with friends at karaoke, I never fail to see some crooning to Sun's and Lin's and even Taufik's karaoke MTVs, so this seals the fact that these three are prime examples of local artistes who have made a career out of their music, sustain it and even made millions from album sales and royalties.

So... what's the big difference between these people and the ones in the local scene that everybody is ignoring or don't care for because they are 'local'?

That these artistes who have made it are 'mainstream'? 'Packaged'?

Mind you, before you can even be packaged, logically you need to have talent, appeal and you need to work hard. Otherwise, why would recording companies invest hundreds of thousands of dollars engaging songwriters, professional musicians, producers and more money marketing the product that is the artiste and what he and his music represents, which in the end translate to the money spent by consumers who want a piece of that.

So, to me this business of music is easy. When you are whining about the local scene, it is just a simple indication that you want to be accepted.

Face it, making music that needs to be exposed so that you can express your feelings and emotions and your talent in the end takes money and time and effort, so you would want to earn something from it to continue doing it and have more people exposed to your songs and eventually buy something that you churn out, song, merchandise, live shows etc.

But to do that ie. earn through your music to keep it going and evolving, you need some form of acceptance from a significant number of people because

1) People will pay for good products ie. good songs, excellent live shows etc.
2) Some people need other people to tell them that stuff is good because they are either inherently stupid or spineless or both.

So, point 1) is almost brainless. It's just like you see all some of those American Idol winners. They have all the different demographic of consumers and such a huge potential market to tap in to but because they didn't do enough ie. write excellent music and unforgettable songs or are not evidently appealing enough - they fade into oblivion.

Point 2) just means that in the end, maybe you just have to prove to your fellow Singaporeans that you are a damn talented and capable musician or singer by making it big in other countries which have a similar demographic audience in the potential market. The only problem is that most of whom makes up this 'local scene' we are whining about create their music in the English language, and we don't have anywhere to go but the US to prove our worth and tell our fellow friends and family in Singapore that we are talented. (That's what Astroninja are trying to do BTW.)

I can write some more and I will continue later but now I just need a good shower.

:mrgreen:

 

[visa]

Have you ever noticed that the quality and production of Channel 8 drama serials are far better than that of Channel 5? Have you wondered why this is so?

That's because there is a supportive local market for Channel 8 drama serials, but none for Channel 5. When the average Singaporean wants to watch an English show, he'd immediately assume that the British and American productions are better, and ignore Channel 5 altogether.

Without support and viewership, Channel 5 has little motivation to sustain or improve itself, and we're left with really dismal, bad quality shows. Who knows how many good actors, writers, and shows we might have had if we had a more supportive environment to groom them? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This applies to the local music scene as well. JJ Lin and Stefanie Sun don't have to compete against Coldplay and Kaiser Chiefs for Singaporean's attention and money, because they cater to a different market.

As for Taufik, who sings his songs at karaokes? I honestly can't name any of his songs. Frankly the only things that reminds me that he's still around are his 7-11 advertisements.

 

[visa]

It's just like you see all some of those American Idol winners. They have all the different demographic of consumers and such a huge potential market to tap in to but because they didn't do enough ie. write excellent music and unforgettable songs or are not evidently appealing enough - they fade into oblivion.

What makes you say that they fade into oblivion? They fade from hyped up public attention, yes, but not into oblivion. Just because Rueben Studdard, Clay Aiken and others aren't on the covers of magazines anymore doesn't mean that they aren't still making a living on their music, you know.

In the end, maybe you just have to prove to your fellow Singaporeans that you are a damn talented and capable musician or singer by making it big in other countries which have a similar demographic audience in the potential market. The only problem is that most of whom makes up this 'local scene' we are whining about create their music in the English language, and we don't have anywhere to go but the US to prove our worth and tell our fellow friends and family in Singapore that we are talented. (That's what Astroninja are trying to do BTW.)

agreed.

 

[hecklerkoch]

Haha.. yeah Visa, I was also quite surprised to see Taufik's karaoke MTV. I remember the production was done in the setting of his own concert here in Singapore many moons ago.

Anyway, using the analogy of Mediacorp's TV dramas - to me it's apt and easy reference to this 'predicament'.

Why Channel 8 drama serials are always better produced, albeit them showing the same old recycled stories of everyday life, only in different settings, studios and comprising or different set of actors everytime?

Simple.

70% of Singapore's population is made up of Chinese people.

So, there is a ready market. So, if 60% of Singapore (maybe 50% Chinese and 10% of other minorities), 30% tuning in to cable to watch other English shows - do you think Mediacorp Channel 5 would spend so much time, money and effort to continuously create really slick productions for the remaining 10%?

I don't think so.

To me it's still simple.

You don't need to think of your artistic integrity and try to create music that 'cater to your intellect' all the time, and self-proclaim your 'indie musician' status to be seen as a 'credible musician'.

Most of the excellent songs that all of us and can sing or at least hum to, have the simplest melodies and lyrics.

That's because humans are simple creatures at the end of the day. As long as you can connect with them at a non-complex level and touch their various emotions, you will succeed.

Yes, we all can try to argue with the most intellectual points and debating style, but to effectively communicate across all levels of people - I think that should be the end objective.

And music is all about communication.

:-D

 

[ymmak]

I agree with bobby on that probably local performers do not have the correct mental attitude. Instead of thinking themselves as "local", they should revamp their image.

Anyway, if you really want to make it big, why should you only be contented with local gigs and CDs purchase from local fans? Why sit and wait and lament about singaporeans not being supportive? Why blame singaporeans for their lack of interest? And so what if all singaporeans buy your CDs, will it boost the local scene? I feel that there is no point argueing whether or not singaporeans are apathetic, rather if you want to make it big, you have to think of the market potential. The potential here is already limited by the small population, so it doesn't make any difference if you sell more or less CDs.

As we all know, Singapore is limited by our small size geographically and dermographically, however, we have managed to survive against all odds, because the forerunners of singapore slogged 24/7 since indepedence. 40+ years later, we should be grateful that most of us only need to work 8-5, yet enjoy more stability, economic growth and more luxurious standard of living than before. Apparently, many singaporeans before us have discovered many more better ways of making a living other than making music. In light of this, it is quite natural that singaporeans have this mentality that music (or any other forms of art) is not lucrative. And somehow, this translates to the impression that local scene is lacklustre. You cannot blame your fellow singaporeans. We are small, we have no choice. As much as you think about how you could make a living from music, the rest of us also think about how we can make a living in the corporate world.

But, if anyone one among the musicians, dare to stand out, dare to be the different, dare to take risk, I urge you to come forth to prove yourself. Erm... well, singaporeans can be a little wee bit apathetic, so you probably cannot do much here. Then I suggest that you venture abroad. Some of our singers have done it. Some of the songwriters have made their mark. Some of our performing art players have also made a name for themselves. Why not, some of the rockers among us, do singapore proud? When more of local musicians have again and again proven themselves successful overseas and in the eyes of fellow singaporeans back home, I believe future generation of singaporeans will become more receptive and supportive of local scene.

The point I am driving at is that rather than complaining against our fellow countrymen and involve ourselves in petty discussions, you should really be more proactive if you are serious in making a living out of music.

 

[Jerseystar]

Yes, which also leads to another problem, that producing music isn't free.
We as musicians face a problem of always been financially strapped, cause we need to buy our various equipment all the time. The problem is, there is little avenue for us to earn back the amount spent. Our cash outflow is going to be a thousand times bigger than the cash inflow we get back from doing music.
But as producers, it is relatively much easier to gain back the outflow via the inflow. I must admit, that producing is hard work, and that producers have every right to be paid their dues. Yes, "spoiling" the market will be unfair as well.

But, how often do producers do work for free?

Even for good bands, many producers expect to be paid. Not that anyone is complaining, after all, it is their livelihood. But the amount we as musicians have to fork out sometimes is quite a lot. One day can cost up to $500, $600, maybe more depending on the type of recording we want.

It is with little wonder that many people are resorting to recording their own stuff at home, where there is more room for trial and error.

Yes, I recognize that a dip in price will spoil the market, but if everyone (musicians and producers) is willing to just sacrifice a little here and there, then at least a lot more people will be satisfied and things will work out better as well

I'll let you in on a little secret. Even the 'producing scene' or 'recording scene' is suffering but not just because its Singapore but because of the advent of mp3 and illegal downloads. Okay I think I should start a new thread about this to distinguish the difference.

 

[theliverevolution]

haha. okay, noted. let's shelve the illegal download argument for another thread though

 

[Jerseystar]

Last point though, you guys should really take advantage of the fact that the Singapore currency is strong. If you spend SGD500 a day at a recording studio and all you can record properly at the most is one song, why not record in other countries where the currency is weaker? The Singapore dollar will give you extra mileage.

Let me give you an example, my band in 2001 was sooo stuuupid that we recorded in Singapore an EP that costs SGD$3000 and all we got was a 4 song EP recorded like shit in a shophouse studio because that is all we can afford. If we changed our money to Malaysian ringgit at the time we would have gotten close to RM$6500. And it costs only RM7000 to record a full length album in a proper high end studio.

Hmmm.... yeah we were stuuupid. But that's probably because we didn't know better. Stop thinking Singapore only.

Oh yeah ... You probably get even more mileage in Indonesia

 

[shinobi]

everytime someone compares singapore with another country, it is always a case of SINGAPOREAN in COUNTRY X vs. SINGAPOREAN in SINGAPORE.

nobody does a comparison of COUNTRY X CITIZEN in COUNTRY X vs SINGAPOREAN in SINGAPORE.

that's because price is not everything. income is just as important. malaysia may be cheap, but that's because malaysians probably earn less than singaporeans. ever wondered why some maids' houses in indonesia or philippines are bigger than than their employers?

japan may be the most expensive city in asia. but that's price wise. consider the fact that a japanese fresh grad earns a starting salary averaging US$25000 p/a while a singaporean earns only around US$16000 p/a.

moral of the story: the world is fair :mrgreen:

anyway i think everyone has failed to realised that music is an INDUSTRY, a BUSINESS. it is not merely a 'SCENE'. it is obvious that without money, you aren't going to do anything with music. surely your 'business plan' can't merely consist of setting up a myspace account, recording some demos, and then throwing your hands in the air and saying "i have done everything, the rest is up to the SCENE"? maybe music deserves abit more respect than that

you want to make it big in music? learn how to make money from it. don't blame the 'scene' for not giving handouts. we dont need more deadbeats

 

[bobby]

everytime someone compares singapore with another country, it is always a case of SINGAPOREAN in COUNTRY X vs. SINGAPOREAN in SINGAPORE.

nobody does a comparison of COUNTRY X CITIZEN in COUNTRY X vs SINGAPOREAN in SINGAPORE.

that's because price is not everything. income is just as important. malaysia may be cheap, but that's because malaysians probably earn less than singaporeans. ever wondered why some maids' houses in indonesia or philippines are bigger than than their employers?

japan may be the most expensive city in asia. but that's price wise. consider the fact that a japanese fresh grad earns a starting salary averaging US$25000 p/a while a singaporean earns only around US$16000 p/a.

moral of the story: the world is fair :mrgreen:

anyway i think everyone has failed to realised that music is an INDUSTRY, a BUSINESS. it is not merely a 'SCENE'. it is obvious that without money, you aren't going to do anything with music. surely your 'business plan' can't merely consist of setting up a myspace account, recording some demos, and then throwing your hands in the air and saying "i have done everything, the rest is up to the SCENE"? maybe music deserves abit more respect than that

you want to make it big in music? learn how to make money from it. don't blame the 'scene' for not giving handouts. we dont need more deadbeats

We are (or at least, I am) speaking about the industry here, and the mental stagnancies which stunt its growth as a collective. The ''scene' is only a minority of the industry as a whole and something I deem almost insignificant in the grand scope of things. I do not mean to demean the 'scene', but I am merely being pragmatic with my definitions and assertions.

Here's a simple example to clearly illustrate why musicians here usually have the 'throw your hands up and hope for the best' attitude. Given the incredible growth of digital music internationally that now makes up a huge percentage of the world's music industry, how many bands in Singapore can anyone here name that has started selling their music in digital format?

I challenge you to name ten bands. No wait, how about five?

And therein lies the problem with many local bands here, something that our local bands in general severely lack. It's something called initiative. The beautiful thing about digital distribution is that you don't need a music label to do it, yet, nobody here does. How are local bands different from the mentality of the chicken rice seller of Stall B (mentioned earlier) who gets outdone by the owner of Stall A?

They aren't any different, and that's the sad truth.

So um, three cheers for blind optimism, for counting our blessings, and clapping our hands together! And let us 'hope for the best' and do nothing to make the best happen for ourselves!!!!

 

[LadyInTears]

bobby sounds like someone familiar.

 

[syed_zack]

the thing is, as i have spoken with a respectable person, most singaporeans say they "support" local bands. but when asked how they "support" these bands, they say they go for their shows. BUT when asked "hey, why not buy their CDs, that way not only you support them by listening to their music, if you like it you can listen to them on the go!" then they scratch their heads and go "maybe next time, no money now lah!"

this is the main problem, people think that by supporting local bands it just means going down to watch them perform. little do they know (or perhaps they choose not to know), most bands actually dont get paid playing gigs, or even have to pay to play gigs, at least in the local scene.

this way, how are they actually "supporting" the band? by being physically there to watch them perform and cheer them on? this is important, but i think perhaps by buying their records its a more practical form of "supporting" the band?

just some of the insights by a friend, and a little bit of mine.

sadly my frenz band had this situation where they get positive reviews from the crowd who are total stragers to them bt when thay have another gig those ppl who praised theier perfrmance on the previous gigs and say they will be there for future gigs all dissapear for thier next gig.knda sad..its all very 'crew based' bt not all bands are like crew base id like to add.

 

[RolandLim]

Last point though, you guys should really take advantage of the fact that the Singapore currency is strong. If you spend SGD500 a day at a recording studio and all you can record properly at the most is one song, why not record in other countries where the currency is weaker? The Singapore dollar will give you extra mileage.

Let me give you an example, my band in 2001 was sooo stuuupid that we recorded in Singapore an EP that costs SGD$3000 and all we got was a 4 song EP recorded like shit in a shophouse studio because that is all we can afford. If we changed our money to Malaysian ringgit at the time we would have gotten close to RM$6500. And it costs only RM7000 to record a full length album in a proper high end studio.

Hmmm.... yeah we were stuuupid. But that's probably because we didn't know better. Stop thinking Singapore only.

Oh yeah ... You probably get even more mileage in Indonesia

Yea , at the same time malaysians are coming over to record with me because * ACCORDING TO THEM* the engineers there arent' that good.

 

[alfa]

bobby sounds like someone familiar.

bobby the sheep?