Why are Zildjians 'good'?

[DrunkDrummer]

Being the cymbalholic I am, I made a trip down to Yamaha at PS today to check out the Z pies. I must say I was sorely disappointed. Zildjian is very reputable as a cymbal company, but I must say, as an individual drummer, I disliked the sounds of them Zildjians very much.

Everything - As, A Customs, Ks - had a heavy, clanky, gong-ish sound.

I swear my 2 year old Paiste PST3 16" Crash sounded more musical, with a little shimmer. Call me bullshit on this one, but whatever.

Personal experience with Zildjians (even high-end cymbals etc A customs, Ks) were bad, whereas Paiste cymbals were very musical in sound, shimmer and sensitive.

I know people will say 'it's all in the opinion' and all, but some things just boils down to the facts.

Does Zildjian market too much on its cymbal alloy? Paiste has done some remarkable cymbal lines (2002, Giant Beat etc) with a supposedly 'inferior cymbal alloy'.

Thoughts?

 

[Anatomyofadrumsolo]

I swear my 2 year old Paiste PST3 16" Crash sounded more musical, with a little shimmer. Call me bullshit on this one, but whatever.
QUOTE]

Please elaborate more on your term "musical"

 

[Composer of Requiems]

I'm really loving my Zildjians: my 19" K Custom Hybrid Chinaand my 18" Avedis Fast Crash. But you know, today I did make a trip down since there was 25% off some of the items, and I really didn't like most of what I heard.

I thought of a few reasons why this could be so.

1) It's not set up nicely. Look at the rack; it's quite different from a proper stand.

2) It's surrounded by all the other cymbals. There's going to be a LOT of resonance and not all of it is good. That'll give you a lot of the clunky clangy sound.

When I bought my china on holiday in Japan (it was a christmas sale I think), I took all the chinas in the shop (it was a Yamaha too, just opposite my hotel) off the rack, set them up on stands and slowly tested all of them. I did it over a few days, too, and the day before going back I finally decided. Of course, the customer service there is really good, I doubt that you'll be allowed to do this locally! Still, the point is that I don't think you should hit it at the rack. At home, when my cymbal is too near a tom, when I hit it I can hear overtones coming from the tom. So I never set my stuff too near each other.

As for the marketing on the alloy and so on, I have no idea about it. But since I'm satisfied with the ones I have, I don't really care- I never bother to read their brochures anyway, I just play around with what I have.

One last thing- although I love a lot of Paistes, I've had bad experiences with Paistes too. I guess I'm just not really a Paiste person, I know some of them sound really good but I've never found any that really appeal to me. So I guess my experience is like the opposite of your's.

 

[mel80]

It is one thing to test the cymbals individually at a store, it is another to actually play the cymbals together with a kit. Different cymbals will fit into different set ups. Even how you tune your kit makes a difference. Cymbals and drums should compliment one another.

I love Sabian cymbals to bits and somehow can't seem to fit Zildjian cymbals into my setup. That doesn't mean Zildjian cymbals suck. It just doesn't suit the sounds I want in my setup.

Composer of Requiems also pointed out a very good point about the cymbals being surrounded by many other cymbals. I'm very very sure the same cymbals you tried will sound different when you set them up on a drumkit and play with them. You might even end up liking them after doing so.

As cliched as it sounds, it all boils down to individual preferences. Once upon a time, trash cans were nothing but clangy sounding smelly pieces of metal. But groups like STOMP are using trash cans and performing all over the world now

 

[shred5]

Being the cymbalholic I am, I made a trip down to Yamaha at PS today to check out the Z pies. I must say I was sorely disappointed. Zildjian is very reputable as a cymbal company, but I must say, as an individual drummer, I disliked the sounds of them Zildjians very much.

They don't care abt u either

I swear my 2 year old Paiste PST3 16" Crash sounded more musical, with a little shimmer. Call me bullshit on this one, but whatever.

U really need to open those infested ears of yours

Personal experience with Zildjians (even high-end cymbals etc A customs, Ks) were bad, whereas Paiste cymbals were very musical in sound, shimmer and sensitive.

Personal experience?? U sure?? Have u played every single one of Zildjian cymbals?? If U haven't its a good time to play with them to backup the claim.

Does Zildjian market too much on its cymbal alloy? Paiste has done some remarkable cymbal lines (2002, Giant Beat etc) with a supposedly 'inferior cymbal alloy'.

Have u really read up on all abt cymbal making?? Or just making assumptions abt the superiority and inferiority abt cymbal alloys for each company??

My thoughts?? ^^^^^^

Oh.. Btw, I don't play Zildjian or Paiste cymbals but I respect both brands. Be it Paiste, Zildjian, Meinl, Sabian, UFIP, Dream, Wuhan, Istanbul or Turkish, all of these companies are constantly churning out cymbals for US drummers to have a wider pallette of sound to choose from.

 

[tim098]

Because Zildjian got sey.

 

[DrunkDrummer]

You sir, are highly defensive. Why get so personal over this?

"infested ears" "they dont care abt u either" - please, let's keep personal comments to a minimum.

Thanks for all other replies, I guess I missed out on some other points.

"musical" I'll define as sounding, well, musical as a cymbal, shimmering sounds and whatever, but anything other than hitting a trash can lid, like a muffled gong or just a plate of metal, otherwise, a clanky sound you get from stock cymbals.

 

[Composer of Requiems]

DrunkDrummer, have you tried out turkish cymbals? You can try some Turkish (brand name) cymbals at Music Lab or Drums Resources, both near bugis, or can try the Istanbul at Guitar Workshop at bras basah. They might give you a sound you like, and cost-wise, they're much cheaper than Paistes. To me, they get a very good shimmery sound with the right amount of complexity. But you'll have to test out quite a lot of them since they're handmade and all very different. I've heard that Paiste's QC is to the point where if you try one cymbal, all other cymbals of that model would sound almost exactly the same, how true is that?

 

[shred5]

You sir, are highly defensive. Why get so personal over this?

On the other hand TS, U are highly offensive. Look who's talking??

I guess I missed out on some other points.

U guess? Guessing is not a good thing to do. Pot calling kettle black?? I think that's what U are in this thread.

 

[Composer of Requiems]

DrunkDrummer was never offensive in this page. Could you cite any examples where he directly assulted anyone here?

 

[shred5]

Everything - As, A Customs, Ks - had a heavy, clanky, gong-ish sound.

Zildjian fans may be offended..

 

[Composer of Requiems]

Well, the thing is that he's telling us his personal experience with Zildjians... it may well be wrong, my own experience with Ks and As were pretty good so far. But that was what he noticed about a product, if you're a Zildjian fan and felt differently there's always civil and mature discussion. He has never directed any personal attacks on any Zildjian fans, so while they may be upset that he has said bad things about the product, they would not be upset that he said bad things about them (e.g. "All Zildjian fans are stupid" or something like that)

I get what you mean about him not having enough experience with Zildjian cymbals, and I too think that the collection at PS, while being the most extensive in Singapore, isn't as wide as it could be. I also think that it's not very fair to say that all Zildjians are clunky and clangy sounding, but I can respect him for how he hears them, and at the end of the day, that's what music is about- you're the listener, it's music to your ears.

The main thing here is simply about language use. We can always hold a level-headed discussion without insulting others- there's many ways to say that someone is wrong. You could always say that he should be more open to different kinds of sounds instead of calling his ears infested, or discuss things in a less aggressive manner. Heating things up like this can easily lead to a lot of conflict with bad feelings, which can kill off productive discussion. Hopefully this can end here.

 

[YargTah]

I so agree with Composer of Requiems. I noticed that many people in this forum tend to take things very personal and thus retort with negative, unconstructive and hurtful comments. This is a collaborative areas where people share their thoughts. There is no right or wrong here - just opinions AND we all try to do it without being personal or intrusive.

I never thought DD was personal or offensive at all. He/She is just stating his/her opinions and their hearings/perceptions of how things sound are very subjective. God forbid that we all talk, see and hear things alike. There are some Zildjians which I love and there are some which I didnt. The same applies for all other brands.

In any case, I really dont want to be involved in a heated, personal discussion between 2people that are clearing going nowhere.

Another brand of turkish cymbals that people seemed to have forgotten to mention most times are the Bosphorus. They have a certain old-world charm, has great marketabiliy and still offers great value. I am amazed at how "Zildjian-ny" certain makes sound sometimes. If anyone comes across any of them that sounds great "to their ears", do not hesitate to quickly buy it on the spot. Because it will be unlikely you will come across the exact same hand-hammered cymbal and sound again.

I just had this experience the Bosphorus thin 17" crashes. 2 of them, same make, same model, same thickness weighting key. One weight 3 grams lighter. Gosh - the difference in sound is just amazing ... Totally different.

Therefore, the joke about Turkish Cymbal Craftsmen being always moody and how they hammer cymbals that day really determines the sounds being churned out that day ...

 

[weckl-x]

I swear my 2 year old Paiste PST3 16" Crash sounded more musical, with a little shimmer. Call me bullshit on this one, but whatever.

There's no need to call BS on this - it's your ears, your preference, your cymbal
You don't need to like Zildjians just because they're supposedly reputable.

I know people will say 'it's all in the opinion' and all, but some things just boils down to the facts.

Facts? To date, as far as I know, nobody has been able to devise an objective way of measuring the quality of the sound of a cymbal. The fact is this: How good a cymbal sounds IS a subjective matter.

Does Zildjian market too much on its cymbal alloy? Paiste has done some remarkable cymbal lines (2002, Giant Beat etc) with a supposedly 'inferior cymbal alloy'.

Thoughts?

Well, if you know how marketing works, you will find it hard to believe everything that a company claims in its marketing literature. Exaggerations and flowery language are used for various reasons - to bolster your brand image, to 'click' with your targeted audience, to try to get your brand to stand out in a sea of many... etc.

Zildjian believes what makes them unique is their alloy - some have come to believe that it's not the intrinsic alloy that is unique, it is their annealing process that is the key (long story).

Also, you'll find that most well-informed drummers do not regard B8 as an inferior alloy as they would know Paiste has done wonderful things with it.

I think the coolest thing we have going for us today, is that there are more options available than at any other time in history. Don't like Brand A? Move on to B, C, D, E, F, G, H... Pampered are we, with sources like www.cymbalsonly.com or even ebay

I can't imagine what it must have been like to be a drummer in the 60's in Singapore...

(In the interests of full disclosure, I'm not a professional drummer. I own and play cymbals from Zildjian, Sabian, Istanbul Agop, Paiste.)

 

[drumsolo86]

I really thought it was a harmless thread but TS, you may want to note that in additional to all those viewpoints offered?

That Zildjians are hindered by the way they are being shelved. They had this wingnut tied down on them which totally hinders the resonance and the sound from coming out. There's plenty of cling and clatter in the shelve. The best way is to sometimes even 'beg' them to take it out for u to try.

Most of the times, they'll be hesitant because it involves a lot of hassle. Ok so fine, even if you managed to get them to do it. There's this electronic price tag tied through the hole of the cymbal. It prevents the sound from coming on and affects the cymbal from vibrating properly from every strike.

LASTLY if I may add, these cymbals are shining new and brand new. Most of the times, I've encountered that they may fall short of resonance (in fact many a times). It seems like there's something wrong with the cymbal, but I assure they aren't just 'broken into' yet. Warm them up, hit them a few more rounds, get your friends to hit while u stand away. Try whatever stock they have in the store..

You may be forced to rethink again about your take of Zildjians...

 

[DrunkDrummer]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I did not take into consideration the environmental factors the Z pies were in. :X

I guess we can conclude, to each his own.

I'm still sticking with Paiste.

I guess Zildjian just doesn't appeal to me that much. I've bought an A custom and K crashes before, they didn't sound really that nice to me, and mind you, that is ON the drumset, not in the rack.

On the other hand... I probably have to fork out more dough.

Once again, thanks for all the replies, cool-headed or otherwise.

 

[Composer of Requiems]

I just had this experience the Bosphorus thin 17" crashes. 2 of them, same make, same model, same thickness weighting key. One weight 3 grams lighter. Gosh - the difference in sound is just amazing ... Totally different.

Therefore, the joke about Turkish Cymbal Craftsmen being always moody and how they hammer cymbals that day really determines the sounds being churned out that day ...

Same goes for my 17" turkish crash. The one that I picked out in the end really sounded a whole world different.

I've never heard that joke before, but it makes perfect sense... so where's the punchline!

Well, if you know how marketing works, you will find it hard to believe everything that a company claims in its marketing literature. Exaggerations and flowery language are used for various reasons - to bolster your brand image, to 'click' with your targeted audience, to try to get your brand to stand out in a sea of many... etc.

Every single drum is more sensitive, powerful and musical than all its predecessors =O

LASTLY if I may add, these cymbals are shining new and brand new. Most of the times, I've encountered that they may fall short of resonance (in fact many a times). It seems like there's something wrong with the cymbal, but I assure they aren't just 'broken into' yet. Warm them up, hit them a few more rounds, get your friends to hit while u stand away. Try whatever stock they have in the store..

Maybe that's something to do with why I like my 2nd-hand Avedis so much...

 

[Jugman]

well, one think i've learnt about cymbals, everytime you hit theme, you do a 'mini hammering' on them. thus somehow making them sound, nicer? in a way?

maybe that's why you like your old Paiste better than the new Zildjians. cos they've taken quite a beating throughout the years...

i'm a Zildjian fan but i do like my old Paiste cymbals. they're second-hand but they sound really good.