TDM VS Native

[zenguan88]

hey guys any of you guys ever hear the different between the two?

right now i am logic based, and plan to use logic in the near future too, well, i also do use protools and love the HD system alot, however the HD system seems costly.

apogee has a hardware processing unit called symphony, very much like the HD system with its ACCEL cards. the only different is where ACCEL use DSP processing chips as its power, symphony uses apogee very own technology to give its power.

I dont really understand how the apogee system works yet, if someone could clarify it to me i would be grateful. well my interperation to the symphony is as above, however, does symphony support TDM?

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony_performance.php

symphony seems a cheaper solution to achieve whats needed of me now.

 

[Cheez]

Can you remind us again what your goal is? Are you setting up a studio? What will you be recording? You might have mentioned this before - good to mention it again for the sake of this thread.

 

[zenguan88]

hmms okaoys i will be doing regular pop stuffs, of course i wont mind venturing into furthur genres later, however right now i want to do well in pop first, i would occasionally use effects to give shape during song transitions etc.

Right now at this point i am recording only vocals , however, i would love to give more warmth to my composition and will prefer to record in real life after i arrange my composition. right now the m audio firewire 410 is giving me a harsh latency during recordings and vocalist that came to record has been uncomfortable with it. espically when i do still add reverb when i am recording their voices.

i usually use about 32- 48 tracks for my pieces.

I do have future plans to set up a studio and therefore wants to be careful in my investment.

Right now the 2.66 mac is serving me well enough, however i am thinking of getting another hardware to loosen up and to share the load of whatever i am doing.

my purporse for looking into apogee is bcos i might be working on film in the near future and would want to ensure my equimpent are able to handle such long project taxes. Right now i do not have the budget for such equiment yet, however i just wanted to know and understand more about it to plan any future route in equiment i might take upon.

But my immediate concern now is to replace my audio interface into something more trustworthy and with a much lesser latency, ENSEMBLE seems to work pretty well espically it is build for logic as well.

i have hear that TDM is far more superior than Native in forums and all , thats why the major price difference between TDM plug ins compared to NAtive, but is it true?

 

[Cheez]

I don't quite understand what you meant by "Native". Can explain?

If you want more processing power (eg film when you need power for lots of multi-track audio processing), external DSP will be the way to go. My understanding of the Apogee systems is that it runs similar to any other systems with external DSPs. Processing is done externally on the system and then streamed to your DAW software. Don't get confused with the different names they use - the principle is the same. External processing power will free up your DAW resources. And yes, Apogee is high-end stuff.

As for TDM, it only works for Digidesign. You can't use TDM plug-ins for your Logic/Apogee setup. You'll need the higher end Protool systems. TDM requires the DSP chips of Protool system to work. Won't work anywhere else. Protools has their own set of plug-in programming. The other is RTAS - also only run on Protools but does not use the DSP chips and runs on the host CPU (so can use on Protools LE and Protools Free). Then there's also HTDM, which I believe is a hybrid between TDM and RTAS (Protool users, please correct me if I'm wrong). So - anything associated with Protools as plug-ins cannot be used anywhere else except Protools, unlike VST and DX.

 

[Cheez]

What a minute....you mentioned "composition", then you mentioned "32-48 tracks". Are you actually recording and/or processing 32-48 AUDIO tracks?

For composition, this will only be necessary if you are recording live. I'm not sure about bands, but it sounds like a orchestra or ensemble. If that's what you mean, then yes, you'll need lots of processcing power. But I wonder where are you going to record an orchestra, not to mention pay for one.

If you are going to compose and record using VST/standalone plugins like softsynths/softsamplers etc, then it's totally different. I know TDM plug-ins send the processing to the external DSP chips then send back to the PC, and so free up resources. But I'm not sure that works for Apogee - you'll need to check it out. And there are very limited good sampling software in TDM/RTAS format. Most of them are standalones or VST.

If this is the case, you'll need more computers serving as "external DSP", what we call a "VST farm". Multiple computers will run different plugins and can be hooked together to a main host by Gigabit LAN. This is how many film composers do it. If you don't like too many computers, the other option is getting Receptor MUSE.

So...are you recording so many instruments live or are you using plug-in instruments?

 

[zenguan88]

yes i do , yes i could not pay for a full orchestra, but there are school bands, i was formally from my school band and therefore might be able to set up something with them to allow me to record them : )

another concern is i might be having EQ, compression and a whole reverb on them, as i do not want to tax the CPU i would like to free of some space through external processing speed. yes i do know that TDM works with DSP thats my concern about apogee as well, from their webiste what i deduce is that their technology only works with NATIVE plug ins.

i do have a pressing question which is , the VST farm that you mention, linking computers through gigabyte LAN does it works with MAC and PC meaning my host is a MAC but i used PC computers to store the plug ins, is this a possiblity?

 

[Cheez]

zenguan, school bands will give you nowhere close to the standard for film. It's not as easy as you think. Mic'ing is already a big problem, and you need a pro to do that. Furthermore, you need an recording room that can fit everybody in. You can't just record it in the echoic school hall. But the most important factor is the standard of school bands. You would be better off with using samples since with good sequencing skills, nowadays it's hard to tell the differenc apart from the real orchestra (for the general audience). Why go through all that trouble of setting up 40 mics? There is a lot of cost involved - the studio size itself is one (if you are renting, then no point getting a high end system as you would be using the studio's recording system; if you are going to set up your own studio, it will be the largest studio in Singapore - not sure if that's cost effective at all). YOu would probably be renting concert halls for recording - and it can cost a bomb.

OK, I saw the Native thing mentioned in the website. Native simply means the plug-in format that is made for the DAW/software. For example - I'm using Gigastudio, and therefore Giga will be my native format. If one is using Kontakt, then Kontakt is their native format. Of course, my Gigastudio can convert Akai and soundfonts, but those will not be my native formats. Native Logic formats will be the plugins that come with Logic (ie EVOC, EXS24, EP88, and all those effect plug-ins or what have you).

As for the VST farm, yes, I've heard of people linking Macs and PCs together. You'll have to search for the software they use. I can't remember. The popular one I know that links PCs together is FX-teleport ( http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/product.html ). Gives you an idea of how something like that could work.

Last word - if you are not going to mic an entire orchestra, you may not need all those DSP processing power. Unless you got lots of money to spend! Only get what you need now. Get it when you really need it. I can do up to 60 midi tracks running Giga on my P4 2.8GHz with 2GB RAM - old machine. It's a notebok replacement, so my soundcard is a simple Echo Indigo io. Reverb can be rendered upon mix-down so I don't tax my CPU. And what's even better - many high quality samples like EWQLSO are recorded in good concert halls with appropriate reverb levels according to the seating position of the players - so you don't even need to add reverb.

 

[zenguan88]

yep i would get the EWSQL sometimes soon this year, i am in need of articulations and various tones espically that of the strings. i do know of the trouble going to record a band and stuff however i also hope i have the chance to do such stuff.

well keeping cost in mind i guess samples are still the more resonable route for me now, and i will leave my futhur plans later. : ) thanks!

FX teleport seems like a server thing to me , is it? .

 

[Cheez]

FXTeleport functions something like a server. One PC is the host. It runs the main DAW software. Other PCs run various VST and plugins and you stream them over LAN to the host PC. And this is the best - you don't even need soundcards for the other PCs - all are streamed from LAN! Youi can see the amount of money you can save.

If you are considering mega libraries like EWQLSO, and strings is your main concern, let me suggest you also take a look at VSL. People using ESQLSO have problems with their strings. VSL strings are excellent and their real legato works better. Only thing people don't like about VSL is that it is recorded totally dry in an anechoic room, while ESQLSO is recorded in a concert hall. There's always an argument that you cannot fully simulate the concert hall by just adding reverb because of how each instrument's sound interact with another instrument in a real hall. To each their own. You will never find a perfect library. For me, I'm using Kirk Hunter (another one to watch out for - their newest Ruby library will be out soon and it is could be in the league of EWQLSO/VSL and cost a fraction of the price). I'm using their Emerald library and it's already blowing my mind off with the number of articulations (>30GB of samples for only 300USD).

If you plan to write for film and you want to compose, saving the money from Agopee and spending it on a good library may be a better investment.

 

[teraslasch]

every library has their own set of problems, however im a big fan of EWQL stuff, that explains my most recent spending! .. hi cheez, im almost done with setting up my new studio! hehe.. new demos from me will be up soon .

 

[Cheez]

Most people into orchestral library gets either EWQLSO, VSL or Sonivox Symphonic Orchestral library. I think too many people use EWQLSO and I don't feel it's the best. So I'll never get it - so I'll get a different sound from the rest.

Actually, most people would mix and match different libraries. I myself am mixing Kirk Hunter with AO. I know - really AO is really old, but their string runs are still unbeatable. VSL is my next goal. If I ever get the money to get it...

 

[zenguan88]

i know this might be getting out of topic here, but cheez what do you not like about EWSQL? i am just curious.

well i feel having an orchestra recorded in a hall is a bonus, but i think VSL might just be geared to people who want to create their own reverbs on the string itself.

 

[Cheez]

I'm not a fan of EWQLSO. I think their brass is OK, particularly the punchy fff samples. But their strings just does not cut it.

VSL's brass, unfortunately, is not punchy enough for me. But their strings is simply beautiful.

So you can see, there's no perfect library. For reverb, I think using a decent plug-in is sufficient. I belong to the group who thinks that reverb is not the main thing. I believe the main thing to realistic compositions is: 1. skill of sequencing (more important than anything else), 2. samples. With good skills, even not so good samples can sound better than those that cost thousands. With not so good skills, expensive sample libraries will sound bad no matter how much the library cost.

Going OT. Back to the main topic of discussion. Anything re: libraries have to start on a new thread, OK zenguan?

 

[zenguan88]

yea i think we should start a thread about samples library soon. hahas sorry ! : ) anyway thanks for your advice : )