Suggestions for sequenced music in live setting

[Cheez]

This is not the first time I've encountered this problem. Music was sequenced and mixed beforehand - sounds great. But had to use in a hall with terrible acoustic. Everything that was mixed beforehand had to change. This is OK if the practice/ rehearsal is some time away from the actual performance - then I still have time to remix. But take today for example - I've only got 1 day to get it right. Today's situation was no difference - music sequenced and mixed prior to practice. During practice, realised that I lost all my mid-frequencies - something that EQ cannot solve as the mid frequencies are all hopelessly indistinguishable. Lost all my beautiful cellos and horns passages in the echo of the hall.

A few solutions I can think of. One is what I mentioned - do it on the spot. Then I had to be seated from the audience perspective. Hard when I'm on stage - had to run down and up to adjust.

I'm toying with a different idea - wonder what the experts in live sound engineers or any others think. With convolution and impulse technology nowadays, I can (with the right tools) "sample" the acoustic of the hall that the performance is supposed to take place way before hand. I will take note of the positions of the speakers and use this in the impulse as the position of sound sources. Then mix everything at home - hopefully what I hear is the actual sound in the hall from the audiences' perspective. After mixing, remove the impulse and use the sequence/mix dry. What do you think? Or any other suggestions?

 

[soft]

hi Cheez

i think you are working against a few factors here. room acoustics, sound system and sound engineer. each will affect your pre-mixed sequence.

one way is to output your individual instrument sound (from sound module/sampler/computer) to a discrete channel on the FOH (Front of House) mixer. This way, the sound engineer will be able to mix on the fly. use outboard efx to process the sound so that the sound engineer can again make changes on the fly.

we can do analysis of the room for frequency and reverberation but cannot calculate the 'quality' of the sound system (speakers)

with the data, you can recreate the 'room' in your own mixing environment but since you might not be using the same sound system, your simulation is not 100%.

how many tracks are you using?

 

[mikemann]

One suggestion. You need to have 2 person team, both with similar experience in audio and must be good ear.

Person A will be roaming around the audience area to be vetting the sound, and person B is at the mixing console.

Person A and B communicate by walkie-talkie, and A will feedback to person B on which part or EQ needs to be adjusted.

Viola, simple and ancient technique.

I think this is one of the few only solution. But I think technology will be such you can have the console controls mobile in your hand, done wirelessly. Maybe on the screen of your notebook, transmit by wireless networking. Can Vet both sound and lights at the same time. Advance comes with automation.

Other automation I can think of, is to have calibrated miking points at the audience area which will feedback the sound status......hahaha.... so complicated, just to mix a sound.

cheers :lol: 8)

 

[turbochicken]

yup, indeed, i second the above 2's views.

getting someone you can work comfortably with, to aid you, is quite neccessary if you're aiming to attain the sound you want.

getting someone with the same musical and sound concept as you is a bonus though.

 

[Cheez]

James,

That's certainly one possibility. But then my setup will had to have multiple outputs - I've converted to notebook with Echo Indigo with only 1 stereo out! Anyway, I usually have more than 20 tracks for my sampling sequencing, so that may be a real challenge.

As for the FOH, since he is in front, how is he to know how it's going to sound like from the back/ audience perspective?

I guess I have to go with the recreation of the room's acoustic via software. If I know what it will sound like in the real mix, I would have arranged my music differently. Take today for example, I could have saved lots of time if I knew that my horns and cellos is not going to cut through the mix. I would not have spend so much time in writing complicated parts for these instruments. And I would not have so many running violins parts since they are not distinguishable anyway. Bass and drums are the easiest - they are heard clearly no matter what kind of hall I get.

I remember by biggest challenge was Chijmes - and no prior practice. The sound was totally lost in the high ceiling. My mix was dead dry as I already anticipated the echo and acoustics. But there was no way of telling what level and mix for each indivudual instrument should be. Didn't turn out as bad as I thought, but I wasn't seated in the audiences' place. So I didn't really know how well (or badly) it went...

 

[soft]

hi Cheez

if you are using just a stereo out, it is similar to recording an orchestra with 2 microphones. there is little the sound engineer can do without moving the musicians.

i have seen some shows that travel from country to country using a ADAT 24HD playback or similar system. The reason why they use this is so that they can 'mix' accordingly to the venue they perform at.

FOH engineer is the person mixing for the audience. there's another person, Monitor Mixer, he is the one mixing the monitor speakers for the musicians on stage.

* i dont think sound engineer work in team. he..ehhhee..heee.. if the sound engineer is positioned at the optimum spot, he should be able to mix for the major audience. yes, there will be blind spots or dips due to the room or sound system. this is where the sound engineer will decide if auxiliary sound system is required to target those spots.

take chijmes for example, people sitting behind the pillars or under the 2nd floor will not be getting the main speakers sound properly. what the sound engineer can do is to add small speakers at the side to deliver clear signals at a comfortable level without blasting the main speakers.

 

[iansoh]

how about ableton live sequencing software? pair it together with a fader/knob midi controller, such as the behringer BC2000 controllers or keystation pro88, that will allow u to alter the mix on the fly so u're not limited by one mouse pointer

 

[Cheez]

Thanks for all those replies. Speaking from a non-soundman background, is there really something that can be done for bad acoustics? I mean - if the acoustics makes the cellos, for example, sound muddled, increasing the volume of the cellos doesn't solve the problem. It seems more than just volume and EQ adjustments.

Soundman mixing all these intricacies sounds a little dangerous to me. In a piece, for example, certain passages of instruments come fleetingly - by the time the soundman adjust for these instruments, it would have passed the passage and other instruments would have taken over. Take the suggestion of mikemann and turbochicken - person B at the back of the hall hears that the flute is too soft or shrill (ie provided he has got a good ear for these things), he talks to person A in the mix via walkie-talkie to adjust (few seconds delay already). Person A adjust - the flute would have stopped playing or playing something else before he even touched the faders.

I know for bands when guitars, keyboards, drums, bass etc play continuously, the soundman can adjust the sound. But in a orchestral/film/musical/soundtrack setting, how can the soundman adjust all these details unless he knows the score inside out? The way I see, is for the arrangment to match the acoustics - which is sad for the composer. No composer/ writer wants to be limited to the acoustics of the hall. But in real life - at least for me, it seems to be happening. Actually, most of these type of music is pre-recorded in proper studio. I wonder what the soundman did for the NDP a few years ago when the SSO was playing in the National Stadium.

Anyhow, me no soundman. Just a musician/writer complaining...

 

[soft]

bad room acoustic is the most difficult thing to combat. unless your audience is listening to the speakers and not affected by the room reaction. imagine all the audience listening to headphones. hee..hee.

i was at the recent Vanessa Mae show at Raffles Ballroom, The Swisshotel. set-up was a combo band and a 10+ piece orchestra. Throughout the whole show, the engineer made little adjustments on the mixer board. i assume they have already tune the system to reproduce the sound decently. also, the musicians are all 'tuned' to play together.

 

[Cheez]

Raffles Ballroom - acoustic shouldn't be too bad since it is carpeted. Imagine echo like a cave....

 

[robsg]

Hey cheez,

Done a few gigs at the raffles ballroom. Agree with you that the acoustics cannot be combated.

What I did was Ensure a better speaker coverage so that the main cluster do not need to be blasted. I place several smaller speakers to fill in the middle and back section of the hall. In addition, I patched the house mix into the ballroom ceiling speakers. Then turn everything to moderate volume. Works reasonably.

Robin