Songwriting

[strats]

This is for all musicians, both guitarists and non guitarists alike. Now, i hit a brick wall when trying to write my own song, be instrumentals or a full songs with vocals. With instrumentals, i can't seem to fill the whole 2-3 minutes with guitar playing, running out of ideas very fast. I would like to pick the brains of our small group of musicians here on how they go about writing their songs. I notice people keep playing the same thing over and over again, the shredders would play the same penta based lick over and over again,the bluesmen with their minor penta and blues scale. This thread is solely for making/creating/writing your own songs. More experienced and proficient player please come out and help!

especially you Daniel

 

[hub37]

hi I am not exactly proficient but just like to share a few pointers of my experience of song writing.

1) Setting the mood of the song I want to write is important. Once the mood is set, the melody idea comes quickly. I usually picture the whole band playing the song to set the mood.

2) I don't think too much about the chords progression when I start with melody writing. Write the melody, then find the chords.

3) In contrary, sometimes I run out of ideas, I just try different chords, or play around different notes. Just to get some ideas.

4) Sometimes I write a line or a phrase, I will ask myself if it is catchy. If not, then I redo.

hope it helps

 

[Indigo_blues]

some advice i've read somewhere before:

what is the story or feeling you are trying to invoke in the song? If you don't have any feelings to invoke, most likely it will be a dull song. One good advice for musicians/songwriters who hit a mental block is to take some time out and do some other things.. get those feelings going in your life again, be it happiness, sadness, etc.. and when you get that particular story/feeling again you can probably write a better song. Most people have nothing to say because they don't 'feel' enough. So take some time out and get in touch with your emotions. Of course, there are a thousand ways of doing that.. find the one that really gets you going.

 

[Mobius]

I read this from an interview David Gilmour had with Guitar World. On how he composes his solos, he replied that he compose his solos using his vocals, without the guitar. And then try to emulate his vocals with his guitars. I think most of heard that a good solo is one tat is hummable, I think this also aplies for instrutmentals as well.

Playing with the effects can also inject something interesting I guess, think Tom Morello.

Writtin the melody first is quite important cos if u write the chords first, ur melody will be limited by the chords.

Arrangement of ur song is utmost important as well, I think alot of people neglect this. Bnads that have good arrangements are Pearl Jam, Counting Crows, and old Metallica.

As for gettin stuck, u can always come back later to work on ur song, cos u may not have the inspiration now, but may be inspired later.

 

[thor666]

Use blocks of a concept in each line of a progression, and start on different beats in an instrumental.

For example, there are many concepts you can apply. Tremolo, Octaves, Pedal Licks, Bends, Sliding, Vibratos, Harmonics. Don't just try to lump everything together.

And above all, IMAGINE. Don't just pick up the guitar and play - IMAGINE everything, clearly, and repeat whatever you imagine until it's clear. Then hit the strings.

 

[ShredCow]

especially you Daniel

I didn't see that, had to STRAIN to see it...

Lets see.
Okay, lets agree on 1 major point that encompasses songwriting as a whole.

There is no fixed way to go about composing.

So okay, with that established...

Different people have different ways of going about composing. There are "normal" ways:
1) Start with a rhythm, build up from there
2) Chord progressions
3) Main Melody

From those 3, there's always, if you are stuck in a rut, trying to exotic rhythm, playing some jazzy chords (for rockers) or playing an exotic melody out. Kind of straight forward IMO...

However, there are more ways.... one of which would be a theme-based approach. Themes can be:
1) feeling
2) Vibes
3) Emotions

These are a different set of "rules" that require you to go with your own flow. Its very vauge I would think, but sometimes, when you are stuck... play some cool chords but you play the same old pentatonic, this is what you need.

GET INSPIRED.

Then approach the guitar with a theme in mind...

Some times it works. Some times it doesn't.

Oh, it helps to be purposely different. Like what you said, Shredders can get stale, same old playing. The trick is to get out of the box. We all know the usual... play on 1 string only lah... play with slides only lah... so on so forth. Personally, i favour this approach. I have the dread of getting into a "normal" mode. I hate it... So when I take up my guitar... it can be starting from a melody, or from some rhythm, but hte main thing on my mind is how to make it rock but not sound like any one else.

Occasionally, I'll play based on a vibe or feeling, which became Freak Out! for me... then sometimes, I'll play based on a rhythm, which became Slinky Pinky Thingy.

There's just so much to explore when you go out of the box! Here's a few of what I would do...

1) Play as rhythmically, percussively as you can. Use the old pentatonics. Think funk.
2) Play over weird time signatures. Try simple ones like 3/4, then 5/4 or 7/4.
3) Play chord progressions that seemingly make no sense. E B A C or G A B C (mild examples)
4) Play a melody, simple one that nails your chord changes. Then play in the following:
- Play all notes 1 fret behind and bend up
- Use the whammy bar excessively
- Use all the inbtw notes
- Play a wrong note once each bar

Hopefully the above will help you "break out".

Remember, everyone can "shred" or "play", but composition is something even more special. If you can unlock your creativity, and focus it, it will make a huge difference in the way you approach things.

 

[Cheez]

Guitar or not, I think the key to composition is in the melody line. As indigo_blues said, have a story to tell. Let the melody reflect that. The best is that the melody is sing-able - that gives it the extra feel. Without a good melody line, it will sound like chord progressions over and over again in different forms and variations - which eventually will give the hearer ear-fatigue.

Everything else is a "response" to that melody line. Here comes a little theory (oh dear, sounds like the "creativity vs theory" thread). There are several ways. You can repeat the melody line at a different interval chord, you can invert the melody line, you can use parts of the melody line in different forms (not the total whole), you can use a totally different line as an "answering phrase" to the main melody etc etc. The art of using 2 melodic lines against one another is what we call "counterpoint" in theory. You can get VERY creative by going into it.

 

[thor666]

if anyone remembers on one of the soft outings (the one where lots of people sneaked out to listen to some live music instead of listening to the presenters), the term for that catchy melody is called "motif".

work on the motif, emphasize the idea and make variations of it.

 

[ShredCow]

Guitar or not, I think the key to composition is in the melody line. ..... The best is that the melody is sing-able - that gives it the extra feel.

I would think.. yes, totally the melody is key.

But the melody need not be singable. I mean, why "limit"? Granted, you can look at it as more of a challenge, to make your melodies as hum-a-ble as possible.... but... IMO, esp when doing instrumentals, it is not necessary.

I think classical is a fine example. True, the more "popular" ones (commercially to the layperson) will be the more singable, "memorable" ones. But look @ that Flight of the Bumblebee? Humable? No.... but it sticks like glue in your mind..

What do you guys think? (Just posting my thoughts)

 

[Cheez]

I think the Flight of the Bumblebee is hummable!!!

 

[lppier]

I think if you can write something that moves yourself, and you believe in it, it is a good song. People need not agree that it is good, everyone has different tastes anyway - but if it moves you, it has a high chance of people feeling it.

Pier.

 

[mingguan]

For me,

I don't limit myself with singable, hum-a-ble,playable...etc.

Eg.

if you compose song by playing a keyboard (or any other instruments), you may end up compose something (melody) which your finger used to play...

if you compose song by purely thinking (or/and singing/hum-ing), you may end up compose something which you listened before.

if you compose song by notation (or scoring), heh... heh... you may:-
- end up writing something which may not be nice when you play/sing it.
- or something extemely simple/difficult,
- or same melody trend (am I using the correct term?) throughout the song.

So...
What I always do is, alternating it with the 3 method mentioned above.
eg.
1st verse use keyboard, 2nd use notation...etc

Or...

another way is...
when you suddenly have a spark ( :idea: ),
keep thinking of it whole day wherever you go (I means... from wake-up, during travel to school/work, during studying/working... until you going to sleep). when you keep repeat & repeat thinking of it, your melody may become 4 bars, 8 bars, 16 bars...
then... ha... ha... One song completed liao...

Note: You may somehow "distorted" the initial melody thought.
then it even better.

just write down or record down (for me, I use post-it to write down the 1,2,3 or key it it to handphone using numpad.) everything you thought ON THE SPOT,
yah... i repeat- ON THE SPOT!!!
Don't think that you will still remember it at later time. YOU MAY FORGET!!!
You may regret if you can't recall the same melody again...

 

[Indigo_blues]

Guitar or not, I think the key to composition is in the melody line. ..... The best is that the melody is sing-able - that gives it the extra feel.

I would think.. yes, totally the melody is key.

What do you guys think? (Just posting my thoughts)

Actually the technical term to that is the 'melodic hook'. Good songs always have good melodic hooks... Yes the flight of the bumble bee u mentioned has a good hook! The tune just sticks in your head! I've learnt somewhere that thats probably the most important thing in writing a good song.. to have a good melodic hook.. once you have that, most of the time the song practically writes itself. But getting the hook... ahh thats the tough part.

 

[Cheez]

Whatever term we use, motif or hook, I guess we agree that the melody line is important. Oh by the way (I have to rub it in - in response to the other thread about creativity vs theory... :lol: ), melody writing is one of the things we have to learn in theory.

Actually, one very good way to learn, is to analyse other songs/scores. Make sure the composer/writer is a good one first. Break down his song and learn. For guitarists, I guess that can mean a phrase/solo. For those of us who read scores, we have the advantage to read them - can get quite a lot out of it. But if you can't, don't worry. Reading tabs etc is also fine. If yoiu have a good ear, even better. Listen and figure out the progressions - not to copy them but to figure out WHY they use it in the first place and see if there are other alternatives.

 

[thor666]

Yes agreed. That's what I do mostly when I hear special stuff on certain artistes. Hardly acknowledged - Slash sounds so good in Guns 'n Roses partly because of Key changes in the solo sections.

 

[ShredCow]

hmmm... okay... well... thats a take on the melody... though i suppose there would be other ways to go abt it without so much an emphasis on melody.

I dunno.. just wondering. Its just so... normal to conjure some humable, singable melody.

 

[fgl]

Paul Simon - song writer extraordinare.. releasing new album neck month - working with Brian Eno.

Now theres two geniuses, musically ad lyrically Simon and production wise ; Eno.

yeah.... 8)