Sonar X1 - amazing!

[blueprintstudios]

Cheez : yeah you're being sucked into the depths and details of mixing with your thread, but it's very "normal" hahah , anyway it's still related to DAW/mixing. so nothing much off topic.

thanks for the upload! It is a little soft, but hey, what's the volume knob for, it's just an element of an entire orchestra of instruments.

alright so about your uploads.. it's quite a responsive EQ/tube saturation difference, but I must say it sounds like something which is very easily abused. like you could overuse it thinking "oh this sounds good on this." and "that" then when you put them all together sounds too harsh. when violins are usually known to be more of a lead-smooth-highs-texture element unless it's an effect on purpose. but yeah, used with the right pinch and brings out the life in the instruments!

regarding your other stuff about the other instruments mixing, I can't gauge since you didn't put up the samples, but I can roughly imagine what you mean

1. Piano, if it's too wide, what I'd do is like what your friend suggested, but do try this method I use if you do get your hands dirty with mixing - Piano L and R , seperate them.wavs
bring them closer to something like an L35/R35 (instead of L100/R100 panning)
the ones that are Piano L and R 100 (far panned) , run a heavy reverb on them + bring down the volume levels so they act as "Room". you may then EQ/compress this to taste. the stereoLR35piano.wav version will be your main instrument, again you may compress/eq/reverb if you like, and pan the stereoLR35piano.wav anywhere Left/Right to fit within the rest of the instruments. so it gives a more realistic sound with depth (refer to the delay chart if it's fixed metronome) and because the L and R are there, you can EQ/compress them in a way where they act as "space fillers" and phattens up complimenting your other instruments if there're any "blanks".
as for compression, more natural sound usually is preferred if i'm not wrong, utilize your MIDI function and group adjust the average velocities for parts that's meant to be mellow/high energy attack.

3. Drums, for a rock drum set, usually it's better to AT LEAST have a seperate overheads/cymbals + toms + snare and kick. cos snare and kick are usually being heard way more than anything else, and cymbals should not be too harsh/loud unless client request.

kickdrum and bass guitar wise, usually I think of the nature of the preference of bass tone, then form the kick, or vice versa. like if drummer likes the kick "punchy" mids, then the bass usually is trebled + midscoop-like. or if the drummer likes midscoop/wet. then usually the bass has more mids and has some kinda gain on it to cut through. it's just more on the generic "Frequency Pocketing" techniques. the other thing not to forget to check is whether the bassist is using pick bass (has more twang/punch) or finger bass. (phatboops-like tone) , or slaps etc.

my cents worth by ear here, it has to sound/feel right first before you discipline it with theory/numbers on the mixing , and then back to whether it sounds/feel right again.

 

[kongwee]

In real life, violin is not smooth,warmth and silky.It is alright to be harsh.

 

[Cheez]

In real life, the sound depends on the violin itself though. In the end, it's how it mixes with the rest. Also depends on the genre and the combinations of instruments - whether you want it to cut through the mix or if the piece is darker. That's what I found out about mixing - things change depends on many factors. In this piece, I need the "warmth" for most of the strings, but the "harshness" (as you call it) in the higher register to cut through the mix (and also to give it more "air" - something like the rosin on the strings). Mix Online has a good article on mixing strings which I found quite helpful.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Of course in real life with you playing the violin it must be painful to listen.

The real violins I hear in real life are skilled players with the entire ntu cac orchestra and it's smooth and very pleasing to the ears. it's much larger than your life.

 

[kongwee]

Well, violin is not my major instruments. You mention it, that remind me in my early year in playing with a chinese orchestra. Also the days where I played with concert band and string ensemble. Blueprintstudio you are right that it is very pleasing to hear beside a good player with their own instrument and being surround by passionate musician.

 

[blueprintstudios]

reminds me of the early years of mine with my major instrument is somewhat a unique percussive upright organ and used to duet with different female vocalists trying to hit Cs in the highest octaves. I was surrounded by really passionate female vocalists man. heh

 

[Cheez]

Listening to strings in a concert hall is very different from a track in a CD. They really do a lot of extra work and mixing in recordings. In real life, it depends how far you are away from the actual player. Also, listening to a 4 piece quartet is different from a full string ensemble, or a full orchestra.

Passionate is an interesting word! Haha! "Trying to hit Cs"... how hard are they "trying"? Remind me when I was playing in first trumpet stand. We were all very passionate "trying" to hit the high Cs. We do sound passionate, though not enough for the conductor. Perspectives change when I conduct though.

 

[Cheez]

Back to the main topic of Sonar X1. One interesting feature is the ACT function. This was already present in v8.5, but I didn't use it. Not sure if they improved it. But what it does is that it automatically maps any control in Sonar with your midi controller - but it a keyboard or a digital mixing console. Very much like how Automap does it in Novation keyboards. I was thinking about getting a Novation keyboard, but looks like I don't have to anymore! This made Sonar not only for mixing, but also for live performance applications (a VST host for live performance).

I do wish they will do something about the size of the Prochannel and consoles in the new GUI. It's a nice change, but it's really designed for a larger monitor. In a notebook, it's scrolling after scrolling, undocking and redocking just to access the entire channel strip (which is otherwise hidden from view, and unscrollable) etc. A few small quirks, which hopefully will resolve in future patches.

 

[kongwee]

Hmm.... Can demo a clip that show only the channel strip of Prochannel and without it. No EQ, compressor or other effect. Prochannel should be neutral other than solid and tube state mode. Wanna know got non linear behaviour in the each strip.A clip that loudness from -6 - 0db is good enough.

 

[Cheez]

The Prochannel is actually automatically applied to all tracks. But yes, you can turn on and off the compressor, EQ and tube. To my ears, there's no difference, but I haven't really listen carefully for that. Will do that tonight - turn on and off the 3 components at neutral state with no settings. If there's a difference, I'll definitely post it. If not, I'll let you know. Good thought.

 

[Cheez]

Some people at the Sonar forum felt that the Prochannel is not only very close to Waves stuff, but to the UAD stuff as well (the 1176 and 4k). There you go. Money saved. CPU and RAM resources saved.

 

[Cheez]

OK. An entire full track uploaded. Check out the OM section link on my new piece "Changes". Not perfect (a few problems with mixing), but general idea is there on the Prochannel.

 

[kongwee]

Your lower string have some line right? The volume is very soft. You also pan it further to the right as your violin section is quite to the left. There is something optional, your snare can add a bit more reverb. I know can sound detach from the drum kit. Kick drum too can add a bit more reverb. In fact the whole drum kit can add a bit more reverb, since they are not the dominating/primary instrument.

 

[Cheez]

My cellos have a totally different line. Violins 1 and 2 are playing similar lines, cellos totally different voicing. What I usually do with the strings is to deliberately add mood and feel - it may be moving quite a bit but not easily heard. If they are too loud, the movement and voicings become a distraction. If there are "just there" like sort of "presence", it gives a feel of movement and creates a certain mood. The cellos are already panned to the right (about 30 degrees) but with stereo field spreading to the middle. Will see what happens if I expand the field further to the right.

Yes indeed. I didn't add too much reverb to the drums. Will try that by increasing the send bus.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[kongwee]

It is just my opinion. The cellos will not crash you piano. Cello is getting all the low notes while your stereo piano on playing high notes on the left. In some case, I will move guitar to the left too, since they occupy the middle notes. Also can move the bass guitar to the left since there are no bass note on the left. Why I do this, I study the layout of a orchestra. If you group the instruments by their size and octave range beside their class, you see some relationship. About the pan degree,I find it's vary over what kind of reverb using used. I do sometime pan extreme end as you could hear the reverb sound on other side.

 

[Cheez]

The guitar is actually panned slightly to the right. I can move that more. People usually advise the bass to be smack right in the middle or it will fight with the kick drum which share the same frequency. The layout and panning of a band-type setup is very different from an orchestra. You don't have a drum kit and a bass guitar in an orchestra. The writing for an orchestra is also very different. Unless writing for a concerto featuring one solo instrument (of which that instrument will be right in the middle), otherwise there's no single main instrument. Even for an orchestra, there are various settings.

 

[kongwee]

This is a messy arrangement I did sometime back with drums,string,two bass,synth. I just put all instrument that I feel what is need without considering fighting and crashing of instruments. I think some with sub will hear the rumbling of double bass. The guitars I just used the built in effect. I think I used a lot of doubling on guitars. Other have to do my own effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtY6hLHWzx4


For me, bass guitar I alway put on the right. These are some trick I learn. So it is not necessary to do all. You have to try and see it work for you.

1. Cut-off some frequency about 30-50Hz. Normally low shelf play with Q and gain. These frequency actually hard to heard but you could feel the bottom end. This apply to both bass guitar and drums. For small monitor that start to cut-off at 80Hz. Sometime you don't feel a lot by doing this.

2. Put compressor on both kick drum and guitar. I think you could find the info. This is very useful if you use a drum with two basses. Because compressor is limiting your dynamic, it is easier to mix.

3. Panning does help.

4. Put side chain compressor on bass guitar against kick drum. Ratio 3:1 , attack 0ms, Peak, and play with release. The method is call ducking. Sometime I got one compressor for dynamic and other one for ducking on bass guitar.

5. Many time bass guitar I don't send any reverb.

6 Use reverb/delay/modulation to push the drums kit to the back. At least they are not line with the bass guitar.

Anyone got any tips?

 

[kongwee]

Back to the song, do you compose from the start using Prochannel or take a song and insert with Prochannel. I think there should be different when you start to push the fader up in Prochannel.

I have this demo using a channel strip plug-in and write from the start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_TJlT3xDGw
In my DAW, the song sound better and easier to handle the volume mix with the plug-in.

 

[Cheez]

Prochannel can only be applied to audio tracks. My composition is done on midi tracks. You cannot apply audio FX to midi tracks until there are rendered into audio tracks (except for VSTi plugins that allow for audio FX plugins - ie plugin within a plugin; Prochannel cannot do that since it's not a plugin but a part of Sonar X1's workflow and interface). Also, it's easier to write in midi - because the writing process is dynamic and changing all the time for me. I have to focus on getting the music right - ie makes musical sense, create the feel I want and at the right places etc. By the way, I don't "take a song and insert with Prochannel". I have 11 audio tracks. Prochannel is a channel strip - and it sits on each audio track. So I have 11 Prochannels on 11 audio tracks. Of course, I can also apply Prochannel to the whole mix - in the masters track.

That's why there're several steps I take: First compose and write in midi, mix in midi, render into audio, mix in audio + using audio FX, listen for discrepancies, go back to the original midi and redo several parts, render back into audio, re-mix into audio. Hectic, but worthwhile. Two components are crucial: 1. Music must be right musically, 2. playing skills must be right. For the second part, it's better to have it dry. It's very useful to listen to the composition dry. It's like listening to a player live without any effects - right on stage. If the player plays the instrument well, then it will sound good (like any recording engineer will say). If the violin players, for example, are terrible and play horribly, then there's no way any good mixing will improve on what is not there. I need to make sure each instrument part is played just like how it should be played - that also means editing down to the individual midi notes after sequencing, extensive use of mod wheel etc.

 

[Cheez]

OK. Song reloaded. Learned new trick. My stereo tracks are fed into reverb via aux send. To increase width of strings, I was told to send via separate L and R. So...

1. Violins 1 and 2 and cellos - 3 tracks: EQ, tube saturation etc added.
2. Bounced to separate L and R mono. All strings combined in two tracks (L and R).
3. Each bounced track fed into reverb with stereo out (aux send)

What resulted is wider strings that doesn't make you feel you can pinpoint it at one spot, and things all feels in one recording hall.