Proof of Evolution

[widdly]

To clarify, there is no biblical literature that ever says that the sun orbits around the earth. People of that time believed in the Catholic church's accepted model (it is the accepted model by the church that they believe in, not the bible) that the sun orbits around the earth, for there is not such model mentioned in the bible. So your example may not be so valid, but it does show how religion can be slower than science to embrace new ideas.

There are some pretty odd bits in the bible about astronomy..

The earth doesn't move..

1 Chronicles 16:30: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.
Psalm 93:1: Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...
Psalm 96:10: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...
Psalm 104:5: Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

but sometimes the sun and moon don't move either..

Joshua 10:12-1: And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

 

[ymmak]

...the validity of evolution doesn't have much practical application in most projects. e.g. we could have still mapped out the human genome for the sake of finding cancer cures.

I sorta disagree.

Let's say, I find a skull in my backyard that looks vaguely like an ape, and somewhat like a man, and I suspect that the skull may belong to one of those missing link between modern man and our common ancestor. I tell the media of my discovery and opinion and this raises alot of scientific interest in my backyard, such that my residence can sell for 3-5 times more than valuation. If such an event does happen, I will immediately believe in(or at least pretend to) evolution.

Let's say you are a research and you need research grant. You find a skull, similar to the above example, which will you think will help you to raise more grant: "I found an ape skull" or "I found evidence linking man's lineage to ape".

Well, there may not be any practical applications yet, but toying with the "man might have descended from apes" idea, does has its own short-term benefits.

Instead of discussing whether or not man descended from a common ancestor, why dont we discuss whether our favourite ts808 evolved from a radio receiver.

 

[ymmak]

There are some pretty odd bits in the bible about astronomy..

Yeah, odd bits about earth, or sun, or moon stood still, but not models about earth orbiting round the sun.

In any case, do pardon me if I have misread, misquoted or misinterpreted the bible coz my knowledge of it is still at its infancy.

You have mentioned that literal biblical text is static, but interpretation of the biblical text is not static. Interpretation can change over time. Like a scientific journal, I can interpret it as like this today, and interpret it as another tomorrow. Our evaluation, critique and acceptance of a scientific writing can change over time, as much as how theologists change their interpretation of religious text.

So it still boils down to one thing: our personal assessment of the wealth of info found in books, internet, tvs, journals, bible, sutra etc, and how comfortable we are with the info that these resources present. At the end of the day, whether we stay in one camp over the other, is just a matter of which one you have more confidence (or faith) in.

 

[taypeng81]

There are some pretty odd bits in the bible about astronomy..

The earth doesn't move..

1 Chronicles 16:30: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.
Psalm 93:1: Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...
Psalm 96:10: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...
Psalm 104:5: Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

but sometimes the sun and moon don't move either..

Joshua 10:12-1: And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

bro, most of the verses you quoted are poetic writings not literal and have to be understood in the context of the whole chapter. did you cut and paste those from somewhere?

 

[taypeng81]

i suspect my Ac booster evolved from the ts808.
and im quite sure theres some dd3 lineage in my Vox time machine delay.

 

[Vaiyen]

....
Well, there may not be any practical applications yet, but toying with the "man might have descended from apes" idea, does has its own short-term benefits.

....

Possibly the same reason for keeping creationism alive , as it keeps the churches flush with money. and power.

 

[widdly]

bro, most of the verses you quoted are poetic writings not literal and have to be understood in the context of the whole chapter. did you cut and paste those from somewhere?

That's my point! The bible is mostly poetic and allegorical, but literal interpretation of the bible is the basis of creationism. Therein lies the problem.

Anyway those are the bible passages the church used to indicate the Galileo's revolving around the sun idea was a heretical.

Here are some other bible quotes that probably wouldn't be useful today if taken in a literal sense...

Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

 

[Gravity.]

That's my point! The bible is mostly poetic and allegorical, but literal interpretation of the bible is the basis of creationism. Therein lies the problem.

Anyway those are the bible passages the church used to indicate the Galileo's revolving around the sun idea was a heretical.

Here are some other bible quotes that probably wouldn't be useful today if taken in a literal sense...

Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

haha, fyi, those are from the old testi, way before Jesus came and took the sins upon his shoulders to die for us instead. thats why now we dont have to be put to death. yay.

 

[ymmak]

Possibly the same reason for keeping creationism alive , as it keeps the churches flush with money. and power.

Possible.

But a statement as above discount that people go to church out of piety. Are you also suggesting that

1) creationism is the selling point of the church?
2) the church is purely about creationism?

Widdly:

I think I know where you are coming from liao. But then again, I can live with such interpretation, cheers!

 

[Gravity.]

anyway, this is my stand.

i believe that both creation and evolution work hand in hand.

God created the universe.
& it is said in the big bang theory, the universe expanded at such a fast rate such that time and space bended!
this could mean that one day in the bible could mean 1000years.

the bible also dint state that '.. the very next day, God created humans.' which could also mean, there might have been a long delay before humans walked on earth. thus the explanation for dinosaurs to go extinct before humans came about.

God might also have used evolution to create new things.
God gave the ability of evolving to the things he created.

and about the bible not making sense (serpent talking/people living to 900 years/earth standing still). i think one has to read the whole chapter or even the whole book to really understand what the true meaning of the sentences are. i mean, everything was way different back then right. plus the translations and everything, what you comprehend may not be what was intended. haha.

hmm yeah. just a VERY generalized statement w/o strong proof or supporting evidence. but its my stand really. and it seems to make sense to me.

cheers!

 

[taypeng81]

its not that difficult to differentiate which are meant to be literal and which are written in a poetic form. for example you quoted alot from Psalms which means hymms or songs, a collection of songs so those are poetic. Genesis is a literal account. i dont have any problems believing in that and there are evidences for some of the accounts in it e.g. noah's ark and flood - there are evidences for it.

and yes, we will be in trouble if we took those verses literally and if you would read the Bible as any other book should be read (from start to end) you will know these are not meant as literal commands to christians

 

[predz23]

eh now predz is feeling tired of this, maybe he doesn't want to continue. But Evolution is a true scientific fact. Scientists don't have an agenda to make you believe what they want you to believe.

Want some proof of evolution? Dogs, thats right dogs. When humans domesticated dogs they mated together the dogs with the traits they wanted. over time this

became this

In this case the humans acted as the natural selectors. In nature, natural selection happens through the environment. Too hot? too cold? not enough food? plenty of food? lots of disease? not so much disease? etc. because theres variation within a species, the individuals who are best adapted to the environment end up staying alive and passing on their traits that are most adaptable to the environment. Keep this up over hundreds of thousands of years maybe even millions with small gradual changes with every generation the end product will not look like the starting product.

another proof, look at the panda. It has something that looks like a thumb to grip bamboo. But it actually isn't a thumb, its an extended wrist bone and cannot function like our thumbs. If the panda was created then how come it has a fake thumb instead of a 'well designed' thumb like ours?

and btw those comments where someone said I end up believing everything what they tell me about evolution. I could say the same thing back, you believe everything the creationists say, so it leaves us back to square one

 

[taypeng81]

yes predz at the level you are describing the species do seem to be evolving. traits do get passed down from generation to generation. changes in environment do not induce the species to mutate traits favorable for survival because all mutation is random. it just weeds out those who unfavorable traits.

but dog doesnt mutate/evolve in swimming dog with gills because of rising sea levels favoring dogs who can breathe underwater because there is no biological mechanism to facilitate such a change even over a very long period of time.

 

[growlingsoulpup]

Exactly what I have said. It requires some sort of faith (or call it by any other name you want), irregardless of which camp you belong to. But predz23 just doesnt get it.

And indeed, believing in creationism seems to require more faith than evolution, but I can live with it.

Oh, this is my 100th post. Yea!

Congrats on your 100th POST!!!! WOOO!!

Sorry, back to topic.

 

[ymmak]

and btw those comments where someone said I end up believing everything what they tell me about evolution. I could say the same thing back, you believe everything the creationists say, so it leaves us back to square one

Yea~! I think you have finally gotten the idea that we are driving at. Whether we believe in him, her, them or whoesoever, there will always be come sort of faith involved (or confidence, if you prefer to call it).

 

[predz23]

yes predz at the level you are describing the species do seem to be evolving. traits do get passed down from generation to generation. changes in environment do not induce the species to mutate traits favorable for survival because all mutation is random. it just weeds out those who unfavorable traits.

but dog doesnt mutate/evolve in swimming dog with gills because of rising sea levels favoring dogs who can breathe underwater because there is no biological mechanism to facilitate such a change even over a very long period of time.

Dolphins anyone?

 

[growlingsoulpup]

Dolphins anyone?

Sorry, are you saying dolphins evolved from dogs?

 

[predz23]

No, dolphins and whales evolved from a land dwelling meat eater. It didn't evolve gills, it still has lungs and it needs to breath air. If it was 'created' wouldn't it have gills? Whales still have the remains of their hind legs, if whales were created to perfectly live in their environment how come they need to breathe air when they live in water and how come they still have the remains of their hind legs?

 

[Vaiyen]

predz23: u must be Richard Dawkins in disguise.



p.s: i mean tt as a compliment

 

[empihsrow]

Science, in itself, isn't as dynamic as you think it is. If it is, quantum mechanics and Einstein would have appeared so many years ago and Aristotle would have discovered gravity!

The Bible, is in no way any more dynamic than Science. The translation and interpretation of its texts depends on the period of time(very much similar to science as well-the perfect example being the Earth at the centre of the Universe again).

As you can see, as everyone wants to know how and why he/she got here, everyone attempts to find an answer which everyone else thinks alike too.

And now, we have the two camps-the Evolutionists and the Creationists, dissing, disagreeing, debating and debunking each other.

I am sorry but I have to tell you that neither science nor religion can answer you that at this moment. Genesis, Charles Darwin, Big Bang, whatever. They do not tell us absolutely the truth.

This isn't a question of the validity of God nor a question of the formation of nature... But you guys just made it so. I don't know how you guys did it, but this debate is endless.

So, here's the bottom line: You will never ever get the ultimate answer you have been craving for.