Nightmare experience in building new DAW (Vista)

[Cheez]

OK, I know. I can hear you saying that I deserve the headache because I chose Vista. Anyway, it's more than that. Perhaps my experience can help some who's thinking of going this route.

First, here are the specs:

Asus P5E3 motherboard, Q9300 Quad Core CPU, 4x2GB DDR3 1333 MHz OCZ Platinum RAM (intended for 64 bit), 2x250GB Seagate SATA HDs, Radeon HD3650 graphics card, RME 9632 soundcard, Sony DVD-RW.

Operating System (drum roll....): Vista Ultimate 32 and 64 bit.

Because I'm not in Singapore, the first problem I faced was that I realised after getting the motherboard that it requires DDR3 and I can't get DDR3 here. Had to get from overseas. Took a long time before it arrives.

Next problem - the PC won't start. Couldn't figure out why. Went online everywhere for answers (by the way, I only used 4GB RAM at this stage and did not install the soundcard - make things simple first during first installation). Found out that RAM wasn't being recognised. It worked when placed in slot 2 but not in any other slots and in any other combinations. Wanted to flash bios, but alas - how to do that without getting it to even enter bios???

So had to wait for a while again for an "older" DDR3 RAM to arrive in case in case it's a RAM compatibility issue. When the RAM arrived, it still didn't work! It is now that I'm thinking it's a CPU compatibility issue (CPU too new for motherboard).

Brought it to PC shop. Changed to older CPU. PC started! Quickly Flash bios. Cut story short - it worked eventually (with many problems in between).

Then came the Vista part. Partitioned with intention to dual boot 32 and 64 bit. Tried 32 bit installation first. Installation kept freezing on me. Rebooted system close to 100 times and reinstalled about 4 times. Still kept freezing for no reason.

Scoured the web again to find solution. Realised that I'm not the only one and solution is not forthcoming. I did everything suggested - do not use SATA but IDE, load latest drivers when the installation screen appears, etc. In the end, one bright guy suggested to check the RAM. My RAM's specifications suggested 1.8V. My bios setting for RAM is set to Auto. NEver had problem with this in my other PCs! Anyway, I changed it to 1.8V manually. And surprisingly - everything is working and very smooth! It appears Vista is very picky on every piece of hardware.

Next step - get 64bit Vista installed. Not done yet. More to come...

(problem - I have very little time doing this because of work. So the above steps actually took me months!)

 

[Cheez]

64-bit dual boot partition installed. Absolutely no problems. All went smoothly without a glitch. Problem was indeed the RAM voltage.

 

[gutturalpiss]

Sometimes it's just that the problem is too simple to catch, or it's just one tiny little thing which is not obvious at all. This is where bulk of the diagnostics & troubleshooting experience pays.

I've been out of the line for a while so I'm not sure whether the Q9xxx & it's mobo bundles is the in-thing now, but I do know that there will always be at least one issue with very new hardware coupled with relatively new software, especially these days. The challenge is on the low-level software/firmware side; new hardware require new drivers; new drivers require new BIOS.

Your case is not actually without a problem. It's a RAM incompatibility. IIRC during the final factory run, they would normally only test the mainstream modules which sort of provides a unified benchmark. This is why a lot of high-performance enthusiast RAMs and some others in the mid-range need specific BIOS changes eg. manual voltage setting.

 

[nextis]

should have gotten a mac

Its hassle free... powerful, good depreciation value, 99.9 confirmed compatibility with any daw(only sonar which is only on pc platform).

Core audio drivers are god sent too. never had any problems with installing interfaces or plug ins. Just loved it even more with the bundled and very usefu applications like garageband, itunes, iweb and imovie.

The other plus to get a mac is getting urself logic pro 8. This daw may be a little steep on the learning curve but after u get ur feet wet, im sure ull agree its very good value for money.

It may look expensive at first but considering lots of factors,(especially it doesnt need any 3rd party anti spyware or malware protection), ive become a mac convert.i never worry when i log on the net or take my platform on location to do vital projects.i hve confidence in it 99.9 percent of the time. dun get me wrong, im not a mac salesman.(i have a mac and a pc at home) but after using vista recently, ive realised how much money i wasted buying a crap product from bill gates.

 

[gutturalpiss]

Do you know how much that same configuration for an Apple platform will cost?

Software is just part of the solution; hardware gets 7:3 priority.

 

[seekz]

what software are you gona use?
does it utlises the Quad cores part of the system?
last i heard very few softwares supports quads yet

 

[blueprintstudios]

yeah, was wondering why wouldn't you go for XP32 + XP64 instead.

gd luck! chill and calm down. that's what I keep in mind when troubleshooting (and most of the time I have to troubleshoot live on spot when fixing someone's comp or DAW problems right during recording). like what gpiss says, we always miss out the TINIEST problems. (ever heard of a computer can't start because casing grounding problem? I just needed to UNSCREW this PARTICULAR screw, the one that secures the mobo, out of the mainboard and it could start!)

 

[Cheez]

Aha gutturalpiss, I see now about the RAM. Should have asked you first before trying to troubleshoot all by myself! grrrrrrr..

Using Sonar P7, so Mac is out of the question. Quad core - I must admit it's one of those things that I hope more DAW software would start supporting quad. People who went to the last NAMM reported many DAW applications (including softsamplers) utilising 4 cores very well. In Windows at least (normal use), I'm seeing all the 4 cores being utilised pretty well with their performance bar flashing. Will report more on DAW specific applications and whether the 4 cores are utilised.

Why not XP but Vista? Well...one of those things I don't want to answer!!! Anyway, I got Vista Ultimate at a good ebay price and it has both 32 and 64 bit bundled in one. For XP, I will need 2 separate copies.

OK. One more problem emerged. While updating the 64bit OS, one update refused to work. The dreaded KB938371 - a pre-requisite to SP1 update. Searched the website and found I'm not the only guy with this problem! Well, easily solved. Downloaded the patch manually and installed it. But it's just plain silly how much problem I'm going through. But I must say it's been very stable otherwise - and surprisingly fast. Boot up is faster than my XP. 64-bit recognised my 8GB RAM without problems and I don't have to remove it when using 32-bit - it just recognised 4GB but has no incompatibility.

 

[Cheez]

Oops. Rejoiced too soon. The manual update patch DOES NOT WORK!!!

Workaround:

1. Looked at install history. Apparently, Windows update was trying to install 2 patches at the same time - one of them the dreaded KB938371. But then that one failed and update continues to update the other patch after this.

2. Uninstall the LAST successful update after the KB939371.

3. Proceed to install the KB939371 (I did it manually - some just ran update again). Now it updates.

Hope this will help all who dares to attempt the Vista 64!

 

[Cheez]

Dual boot complete. 64-bit DAW software installed with a little problem (needed to reinstall Komplete 5 due to some freezes of unknown cause, but later no problems). Sonar Producer 7 no problems. 64-bit RME HDSP drivers all well. Any 32 bit software gets installed nicely and automatically into the 32-bit programs folder.

Interesting to note. In XP when I dual boot (C and D partitions), one partition will always remain in C while the other in D (my C is normal work partition and D is DAW partition). In Vista, whichever partition I boot will ALWAYS be C and the other automatically becomes D. This makes things less confusing for installation of software. And all software installed in the other partition doesn't get mixed up even after being automatically swapped into another partition. Nice.

 

[Cheez]

More nightmares.

Not on the DAW partition, but on my everyday partition.

Crashing after crashing for no reason. Found out a few things:

1. Gadget sidebar is extremely unstable - disable it
2. Dreamscape is also unstable - disable it

Also realised that the motherboard's latest chipset is not the latest as posted on their website. Need to check Intel website for the latest chipset.

Also problem with SATA II drives. As you recall, I installed Vista on IDE mode due to potential driver problems with Vista. After enabling SATA in bios, Vista can no longer start. Found out the problem is that Vista turns off SATA by default. To turn it on, you'll need to:

1. In BIOS - switch back to IDE mode
2. Boot Vista - should work
3. Enter registry (click Start -> Run -> type "Regedit")
4. Go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Msahci
5. Right click "Start" and click "Modify"
6. Change value to "0"
7. Restart Vista.
8. Go back into BIOS and enable AHCI.

Should now work. Realised that my HD was set at 300MB/s SATA mode but previously running in IDE mode. Not sure if that caused the crashes. Now that it's back in SATA mode, hopefully things gets better...

Also, don't forget to update the lastest Intel chipset again as Vista will install the built in AHCI (default) drivers which are not updated.

Now need to do the same for my 64-bit partition. This is getting silly. The trouble of Vista...

 

[Cheez]

PC kept crashing - 20 times a day. Culprit is the RAM.

1. RAM (esp OCZ) must have bios settings manually set according to manufacturer. I've only set the voltage. Realised that I need to change almost every single bios setting for the RAM.

2. Cannot install more than 4 GB of RAM in 32-bit Vista. Initially I thought even though 8GB of RAM is installed, Vista 32 will just recognise 4 GB and ignore the other 4 GB. But after extensive troubleshooting, I realised this is not the case. Extra RAM in other slots crashes the system. This cause significant inconvenience in dual booting 32 and 64 bit OS. This means when I'm using 32-bit, I'll have to take out 2 of my RAM, and put them back in when I'm in 64 bit OS. Now with only 4 GB RAM in my 32bit system, everything became extremely stable with no crashes. The speed also increases signficantly. Dreamscene etc can now all be activated without crashing.

I hope there's a workaround for the RAM. I don't like taking the RAM in and out. At least my Silverstone case makes it easy to remove the side cover. But that will mean I need to put the casing in an easy to access place instead of hidden at the botton of my table. Putting it in an open area also means increase noise from the fans (the Silverstone case has 2 fans, of which the front casing fan cannot be taken out). With the CPU fan, GPU fan, and the power supply fan, the humming noise is quite evident (although my fans are all ultra-silent fans).

Anybody got any workaround to let 32-bit OS run while having more than 4GB RAM installed even though it doesn't recognise more than 4GB? I really want to leave all 8GB RAM in my system without removing and installing when switching between 32 and 64-bit.

 

[Cheez]

32-bit system now more or less stable. Occasional reboot - very rare. I've just disabled auto reboot and turned on error log and I'll monitor it for a while.

Will start getting 64-bit system stable soon. One word of advice - 64-bit takes up significantly more HD space than 32-bit. I've regretted a little for allocating only 40GB to it, thinking that I'm only installing DAW software and nothing else. But it's eating up more space than I thought. At least I have an empty partition ready - so will transfer the DAW software into that partition.

I've attached a jpeg pic of the PC.

CPU: Q9300 Quad Core (2.5GHz), currently not overclocked
RAM: 4GB OCZ 1333MHz (32-bit), 8GB OCZ 1333MHz (64-bit) - 2x2GB shown in pic
Graphics: Radeon HD3650
HD: 2x250 Seagate 7200rpm SATA II drives (transfer rate set at 3Gb/s)
Audio card: RME HSDP 9632
CPU Cooler (the giant looking thing) - Thermalright IFX-14 (note the backside heatsink)
PSU: Zalman 600W
Case: Silverstone

I wouldn't recommend the IFX-14 CPU cooler. Too clumsy to install. Hard to get it into the case. The case must have sufficient space at the top end to accomodate the backside heatsink. Idle CPU temperature is about 53 degrees C, not cool enough for me. But I've stressed the system to the max, multi-tasking everything I know (and have) using programs that eats up CPU resources (eg registry scanner, antivirus scanner, playing music etc). CPU resources climbed up (with all 4 cores being utilised) but temperature maintained below 60 degrees C (occasionally peaked to 63 for a few seconds, but never beyond that). I'm happy with that.

Will report on 64-bit soon And will report on DAW software that uses (or do not use) 4 cores. I realised that quite a few of my 32-bit software actually uses the 4 cores. Even my graphics program (Xara Extreme 4), which claims DO NOT support multicore (only the Pro version does) - when I manipulate pictures, all 4 cores show significant activities. Bitdefender 2009 antivirus also uses 4 cores. JVpowertools (the other CPU eating software - registry cleaner) uses only 2 cores.

 

[logicdroid]

Do you know how much that same configuration for an Apple platform will cost?

Software is just part of the solution; hardware gets 7:3 priority.

It's definitely more costly to get a mac, but it gets the job done and quickly. Most of us love the mac because of this - no need for trouble-shooting. I would have recorded heaps of songs and earned a fraction of what I've spent on the mac within that time frame. I would have. But that's another discussion...

On the flip side, trouble-shooting pcs is frustrating but important. We all learn from taking a fall...crash :mrgreen:

Hey Cheez, thanks for sharing these info. I'm less active on Windows these days but I still get system Implementation jobs every now and again and this really helps. More updates on your process please!

 

[antishred]

I'm with logicdroid. If you want to start recording without any fuss just use an Apple or use Win XP.

If you continue with Vista, expect the following problems - click and pops, audio dropouts, DAW software crashing while recording.

I experience this myself and the time I spent solving the problem was enough time for me to record and mix a new song.

Plus, if you use a Mac, you can buy and use APOGEE duet

 

[gutturalpiss]

I will not argue with the fact that on a Mac, you never worry about "troubleshooting". In fact, I don't think I'm wrong to say that this "feature" contributes to the cost of an Apple computing solution. Personally, I'd rather work with Pro Tools on OS X than on XP.

But not everyone needs to spend that extra dough on plug-and-play. I'm pretty sure Cheez uses a couple of software that he needs and most of which are platform-dependent. Freedom of hardware configuration is yet another factor - it's called versatility. So yes, both platforms have their advantages. Well, in any case, you know my answer is Linux :mrgreen:

I'm supporting this case contrary to most replies here. The move to 64-bit is essential, and Windows has been late to the scene anyway. Since 64-bit registers are obviously a great deal larger than 32, memory (hence storage) allocation is equally greater. You can't complain about that because on the other hand, you're getting more RAM housing and pure x86_64 software will run a lot better, faster and more efficiently than their 32-bit counterparts.

Cheez, treat this as a learning experience. At least you are now one of the early adpoters of Windows-based 64-bit professional audio. Now where has the wiki gone? This is all good material to be placed in there.

edit: hmm.."not enough permission" to view the image =/

 

[logicdroid]

You're right.

There's no argument. We all pay extra for privilege, just have to make sure it's justifiable. The Mac works for me coz I get paid to constantly meet datelines, and it does and have done so for the past 6 years for me.

I dig pcs coz it's educational (more experimental) but, I'm on the mac coz it's productive, and I'm lazy:mrgreen:

Above all else, I believe in productivity and feeding my family. Let's move this to another topic, and find out what Cheez is doing.

 

[behling]

why even bring in the topic mac?. this is oh so typical. anyway. mac is not trouble free too. end of the day it is the user, its not the platform. i dual boot between OSX 10.5.4 and vista x64 and i have no problem or crashes wadsoever.

@Cheez,

OCZ rams just dont cut it. if you want to use premium rams (thou i dont see the need to) go with criucal tracers. they never fail you. ocz and corsair are just too incompatible with certian mobos.

the reason why your system crashs with 8GB of ram is because you need to enable memory remap in the bios.

go with x64 and 8gb of ram. i'm on 4GB, both OSX and vista x64 reads it ALL. there is no going back. do note that you MUST ensure your software works on a x64bit OS else. there is really no pt.

 

[logicdroid]

why even bring in the topic mac?. this is oh so typical. anyway. mac is not trouble free too. end of the day it is the user, its not the platform. i dual boot between OSX 10.5.4 and vista x64 and i have no problem or crashes wadsoever.

Someone suggested using a mac because they understand what it is to trouble-shoot a problematic system. You can't just write someone off because they suggested a costly solution, the decision lies with the individual.

Anyway, I'm on your side regarding Crucial. I've purchased RAM from these guys for clients and my own system and have no problems whatsoever. Back to topic please!

 

[gutturalpiss]

Never had problems with OCZ myself. But that's probably because mine are all at least 3 years old on a DFI.