Nightmare experience in building new DAW (Vista)

[Cheez]

Well, if I have a choice ($$$), Mac and Logic is definitely the way to go. In fact, I don't quite like Sonar, now I've installed it. I've grown so much used to Logic (PC version) that I'm finding Sonar GUI a pain to look at. However, it took me about 30 minutes to figure out where things are supposed to be - so no steep learning curve.

Behling, how do you enable memory remap in the BIOS? I don't see that option anywhere. Anyway, I'm having no problems now with 4GB. I'm leaving my extra 4GB out at the moment to test other aspects of x64 first.

Haven't got a lot of time to fiddle around. But initial test isn't too great. A few VST plugins (32bit versions) are having problems with x64. Most are OK (Absynth, FM8, Elektrik Piano, Akoustik Piano, B4 II). FM8 has some erratic behavior of being slow when scrolling through the instrument list. Having problems with Kontakt 3 - just freezes (haven't tried it standalone). Others had reported Kontakt 3 to work without problems as a VSTi in x64. Sonar 7 uses a special bridge (called BitBridge) to enable 32 bit VST to work in their 64 bit version. I need to troubleshoot to see what I'm doing wrong. Guitar Rig 3 doesn't work in x64 environment. Haven't tested Massive, Battery, Pro-53 and Reaktor 5.

Kontakt 3 is my main engine of work. I need it to work. But I do know NI is working on the 64-bit version of Kontakt at the moment.

Oh, one more thing. The reason for getting OCZ RAM...Ebay sells them cheap. The 2GB DDR3 RAM in Sim Lim is priced too high for my comfort (30% higher of what I got them for, same brand) - particularly since I need 4 sticks of them. They are not too bad - just need bios tweaking.

Conclusion is Vista is the worst OS ever. SP1 is much more stable, but still not there yet. I'm still getting occasionaly random crashes on the 32-bit Vista. Some of the issues (after extensive googling) were never solved for almost a year. One issue is that somehow I can no longer enable or disable Windows features. The Windows features program list comes up blank. This is a known bug. Microsoft's workaround using sfc.exe doesn't work for me, as reported by all the others who has the same problem. Can't believe no patch is released for this bug for more than 1 year.

x64 environment appears more stable. Probably because mine is DAW specific and has no other software installed. I'm quite sure the antivirus is one of the causes of my problems in the 32-bit OS.

When I get more time, I'll report more on VST (and standalone) 32-bit plugins compatibility in 64-bit OS. And of course, whether Quad Core is being utilised by the DAW software and plugins.

Thanks for listening to my complains...more to come...

 

[logicdroid]

logic reference

Mate, I've just started to write my own blog on Logic... It's gonna take some time to complete but it's on-going. Here's the add : http://web.me.com/logicdroid/Site_4 send me a mail to request for the password... I'll be honoured.. Please comment...

 

[Cheez]

More headaches. This time it doesn't look like Vista specific (or maybe so...?). I'm getting BSODs with various error messages - from STOP 0x0000001a error, to page_fault_in_nonpaged_area error to ntfs.sys error. I get at least a few BSOD a day in the 32 bit OS. The first 2 errors appear RAM specific, while the ntfs is drive specific.

So....

Ran chkdsk and found HD to be free of error. Ran memtest86+ and found all my memory sticks to be free of error. Ran SPC again and found no error. I'm stumped.

The RAM error appear the most frequent. I've been trying to fiddle around in the BIOS to get the right setting. Default setting almost certainly doesn't work - the OS won't even boot. Setting to the recommended setting (on the RAM, it's 7-7-7-20 at 1.8V) works but still crashes with BSOD occasionally. Need to set various other settings but it's still not right. Searched the web all over, and the STOP 0x0000001a error is a common problem but not resolved (and microsoft can't resolve it either). My RAM is not the problem (memtest showed no problems). So what is??? I guess it comes back to Vista's handling of memory. The other possibility is that OCZ RAMs are really flimpsy and requires quite a bit of tweaking in the BIOS.

Headache...

 

[gutturalpiss]

Do you have different pairs of RAMs? Or are the OCZ your only available ones? It'd really help if you could eliminate physical memory as a culprit. You can't rely on software for potential low-level hardware conflicts and/or issues. I'm also assuming overheating is not a problem.

 

[Cheez]

All my OCZ RAMs are identical. I've thought about physical memory, but a search reviewed that the problems lie with RAM. I'll try disabling paging to see if that helps. Thanks for the heads up.

And no, overheating is not an issue since my PC is not overclocked. My OCZ RAMs come with heatsinks. My CPU is cooled by a gigantic heatsink with a 12mm fan + a backside heatsink. My case has 2x12mm fans (front and back). My power supply itself has a fan and a copper heatsink. All my fans are S-flex low noise 1200rpm fans (except the PSU which has it's own brand - don't want to open that box up).

 

[Cheez]

Problem solved. The problem is the RAM. There's nothing wrong with the RAM per se (passed Memtest86+ and Windows memory tests). Apparently the SPD settings for OCZ RAMs are really tight. I believe it's a timing issue - somehow info cannot be written or read to/from the RAM in time, causing it to crash.

Solved it by underclocking the RAM. Reduced the RAM speed from 1333MHz to 1111MHz. Then I try to reduce the timing of the parameters individually to slowly increase the speed again. RAM specs said 7-7-7-20. I reduced to 6-6-6-18 without problems. 5-5-5-16 crashes the RAM. But I'll try to tweak it again (including the other parameters) to attain faster speed. It'll never be as fast as 1333MHz, but I'll try to get it as close as possible.

So answer is - don't get OCZ. And if you do get similar problems, try underclocking your RAM. Hopefully my mobo's next bios update will solve the issue.

Finally - a system that's not crashing. I'm now happy. Learn a lot from this nightmare. Hopefully it helps others who are facing similar problems. Will get back to focusing on 64-bit DAW after this - when time allows. More to come...

 

[Cheez]

After RAM is underclocked, everything else worked. DreamScene, Sidebar etc. No more crashing.

However, Kontakt 3 is really slow in getting into 64-bit. They are still in the development phase after so many months. Not even in beta yet. It appears that I may have to switch my DAW to 32-bit since I need Kontakt. If Kontakt is going the same way as Gigastudio, then I'm in trouble. Suggestion is to keep to third-party samplers (PLAY from EW, Vienna from VSL, ARIA from Garritan). And now it's been announced that Sonivox (formerly Sonic Implants), developer of the famous Symphonic Collection library, is also joining the rest to develop their own engine. That's how things are going to go from now on.

 

[logicdroid]

Aw man, tell me about it. I'm still still waiting for NI's update.. Got my PLAY update for EWQLSO though... Rocked emmm... Sawed my socks off!

Cheez, salut! where you at?

 

[Cheez]

Heard reports about PLAY being CPU and RAM hungry. What do you think? Contemplating between PLAY and Vienna. However, PLAY is more varied instead of just symphonic focused. Looks like I've got no choice but to have PLAY in the end. Vienna is obviously more realistic than PLAY, but also more expensive.

Don't want to give up my many libraries just yet. My Kirk Hunter is still very playable and usable. A very different character than EWQLSO and VSL. And I have at least 10 libraries in Giga format waiting to be converted into Kontakt...

 

[logicdroid]

I've maxed out my G5 to 8gigs of RAM.. still not enough.. still a pain dealing with keyswitches although not as bad as before....wished it had short to long articulations as the silver or gold version... And loading sample attacks are quicker...overall a 8/10 IMO. Am thinking of adding 64bit PCs as slaves.

I reckon wait for k3's 64bit update.

 

[Cheez]

It seems Kontakt 64-bit is going to take a while. Meanwhile, I'm switching my DAW to 32-bit. Very sad indeed. I was really hoping to use 8GB RAM.

Anyway, found out that:

1. All NI plugins work in 64-bit environment (32-bit emulation) as standalone, EXCEPT Guitar Rig 3.
2. All NI plugins work in Sonar 64-bit (32-bit emulation) as VST, EXCEPT Kontakt 3 and Guitar Rig 3.

Kontakt 3 is known to work in 64-bit OS when used asa plugin WITHIN a 32-bit DAW software. But it doesn't seem to work in 64-bit DAW software.

So in view of this, sadly, I'm leaving 64-bit for a while. Hopefully NI does something soon...Now, I'm wiping out my 64-bit and going for 32-bit.