multi effects plus analog

[dolmat]

Hi guyz. wanna know.. Wll i still get a digital sound if i use an analog stomp box and put it tru a multi effects to use its chorus or delay? Will the overall sound still be digital?

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

heh, some will say yeah, some will say no. There is no definite answer. Everything will depend on the context of the sound being used, the combination of how it is being utilised and what kinda sound the person playing, wanna...

in another way, using digital circuit with analog circuit, its not going to make the sound analog also. Its too simple to see it in that way and there wont be any definite outcome, without going thru huge amount of gear and used in what sorta condition, context etc.

In short, no definite answers, without knowing what gear is used, thru what amp, for recording, playing live in band setting etc.

 

[Dolwood]

R we biological brothers?

 

[dolmat]

haha.. maybe we are dolwood... hmm.. thanks a lot.. Then what about putting a DS-1 into a DD-3? Hmm.. A DS-1 is analog, then, a DD-3 is digital, will the DD-3 alter the output sound from the DS-1? hmm...

 

[Dolwood]

Dolmat....
bro. try to make your snd more raw..Now adayz all seems to be 'Electronically'
heard.Best to limit your pedal to 3 or 4 and play ard with your amp instead.i stick 2 tis concept & find it easy to manage.The more thing that u have,the more headache soon you'll find

 

[dolmat]

oh... thanx.. I'll keep that in mind...

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

Then what about putting a DS-1 into a DD-3? Hmm.. A DS-1 is analog, then, a DD-3 is digital, will the DD-3 alter the output sound from the DS-1? hmm...

We have to look at it whether do you mean both pedals activated or one of it is "on" and the other "off"

If both on, yes, sound will changed, your distortion will be "delayed".

If distortion is "on" and delay "off", that will depend on whether can you hear any difference in the sound. It doesnt matter what others can say, most important being, can you hear the difference? Interestingly, some can hear it some cannot and a lot of people just tend to read whats on the internet forums and start to hear things which they might not have heard before...

Since in the question is boss pedals and if really wanna talk about the change in sound, you will have to look into it from the circuit within. Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with music and be too boring to talk about it.

Talking about sound, without context of music, is as boring as mindless soloing on the guitar whole day long

 

[Arsony]

You know something, your newfound brother brother Dolwood is right. Get a good amp and run your guitar straight into it. One channel clean and other channel/s dirty. Then run in a simple overdrive and a wah pedal if you use one. That's it. Sounds good BECOS you have chosen a good amp and have EQed it properly and it does not sound muddy.

And please. Everyone talks about analog vs digital like they have ears of a lower mammal like that. The reality is .... for all intents and purposes, you will only know that a sound is digital if ..

1) You're not blindfolded and can see what the setup is
2) You're talking about early digital modulations back from the last 2 decades
(now digital effects are very advanced and they definitely don't sound so called "digitized" anymore)
3) You have the ears of a professional , seasoned musician.
(now how many of us in SOFT are of this category?! If you say a lot, I'm happy for Singapore in general but honestly, the reason most of us are not is because of market constraint right?)

So for most of us, including myself, our ears are not that discerning and if that is the case, why spend that extra money? Cos going full analog may be quite expensive you know. I believe that you should spend only if you or for that matter , your audience can appreciate the difference. Ask yourself. For every gig that you do, audiences are all from SOFT is it? (Assuming EVERYONE from soft have such good ears la considering the frequency and intensity of how we discuss analog vs digital and also tube vs solid state...!)

So I think for me.... I just go with what sounds good... analog or digital ... cheap or expensive... Like I always say, apply everything in life where it matters. If music be food for the ears, then "blindfold" not just your eyes, but psychology and peer pressure; and trust where it matters..ie YOUR ears!

Arsony
"Burn M#$@#F@#ker Burn!"

 

[Whitestrat]

Hi guyz. wanna know.. Wll i still get a digital sound if i use an analog stomp box and put it tru a multi effects to use its chorus or delay? Will the overall sound still be digital?

Actually, I think what's also important to note is, which one comes AFTER? The analog? or the digital? Usually, the pedal that last processes the signal will alter the resultant tone the most.

For example, a Boss MT2 into a MI TZOD will sound analog, while vice versa, will sound digital.

I'm not sure about how modulation effects will affect this, but my set up is mostly digital. And if the end point(the amp) is soid state, then the digital tone will be predominant. But if the amp is tube, then it'll be more analog.

 

[kym]

i guess what whitestrat says make alot of sense.

if ur amp is a digital modeller, most likely it will sound like digital. if ur amp is tube, chances is that it will sound more analog.

ok, this is what i've read in a book. a analog pedal will alter the shape of the signal wave directly. a digital pedal will break up the input signal, rearrange it according to the setting u dial on it, and then reform back such that this time round as the signal leaves the digital pedal, the shape of the wave is different.

if what is said in the book is correct, then by right, a digital pedal shouldnt sound too drastic a difference from analog pedal. but then again, some pple complain about subtle differences. oh well.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

its too easy to look at things in term of analog or digital from the sequence.

Unfortunately, thats what manufacturers can use it to sell things, "making your sound analog", "making your sound warm" blah blah blah...

theres a lot more things that i have have yet to try out and to simply look at things in analog or digital, is limiting the experience of learning and discovering about making music and not just concentrating on playing geetar, which imho, is useless without the music..

 

[Whitestrat]

ok, this is what i've read in a book. a analog pedal will alter the shape of the signal wave directly. a digital pedal will break up the input signal, rearrange it according to the setting u dial on it, and then reform back such that this time round as the signal leaves the digital pedal, the shape of the wave is different.

if what is said in the book is correct, then by right, a digital pedal shouldnt sound too drastic a difference from analog pedal. but then again, some pple complain about subtle differences. oh well.

Ok, this is what it REALLY is in technical terms (from my totally rusty electronics diploma).

A digital wave is a squuare wave. An analog wave is a Sine curve, or a Cosine Curve, depending on the phase. When you have an analog effect, it alters the Sine wave directly, yes. BUT, because of that alteration and layers of transitions, there are losses. Which is why most analog effects alter tone.

BUT, a digital wave is meant to simulate a sie or cosine wave, but by havinv many many square waves of different amplitudes. But the accuracy of this digital wave is hampered by the resolution of the processor (i.e., no. of bits) If you have a very high bit processor, usually, it has a high processor level breakdown, which attempts to give you an accurate representation of a sine wave. But under magnification, you will still see oblique angles on the waveforms. It ADDS things to the waveform, and also subtracts certain things. This is why you get a buzzy sort of break up with the sound on many digital effects. The COSM from Roland Corp is supposed to smoothen this out as much as possible.

So, the key reason why many people like the analog effects is mainly because of that smoothness. It's still a smooth curve, no matter how altered. But it does not preserve your original tone. Digital effects, are again supposed to recreate the sound accurately. But it also recreates some of the original nonsense in your signal.

So, analog or digital, it's up to you. As long as I get the tone I want, I don't care.:mrgreen:

 

[Arsony]

So, analog or digital, it's up to you. As long as I get the tone I want, I don't care.:mrgreen:

Yup... that's very much it. Synthetic sounding? Synthesized music of the '80's doesn't sound bad at all right? In fact most of us still go to Mambo nites at Zouk just for that isn't it......?

Arsony

 

[kym]

OOOooo... thanks whitestrat for ur informative post. i guess what learn from the books not very complete, with ur input, now i have a clearer picture. +1 to u.

after assimilating ur input, this is what i understand. correct me if i m wrong k?

1) the original signal from ur guitar is in the form of either a smooth sine or cosine wave. when an analog pedal comes along, it will alter part of the wave directly. wateva the alteration, the end state of the wave is such that the unaltered portion of the original wave is still smooth coz it is unaltered mah, so it must be smooth, right?

2) if a digital pedal comes along, how it adds effect is by breaking up the entire original signal (the smooth wave) and then simulate the shape of the wave of those of the analog pedals. however, the resultant digital wave formed is not exactly smooth (depending on the "resolution" of the processor). the wave actually consists of many intermediate square waves (steps) that form a bigger sine or cosine like wave.

3) so in that case, if u put a digital pedal after analog pedal, ur wave will be more digital than analog liked.

4) but if u put a analog pedal after a digital pedal, ur wave should also be more digital than analog liked, no?

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

guitar signal is not really sine wave

If you wanna listen to sine wave at various frequency, google round for it, theres sites with those clips. Its boring as hell, but listening to long hours straight is trippy as well

guitar signal is a mess of lines and and irregular wave at clean, it contains harmonics and stuff. Got 1st order harmonics, 2nd order harmonics and loads of other things which prolly too boring to use for music, unless you wanna do terrorizing deathcore "if i dont hurt my hearing, i aint doing" kinda art of sound

If you wanna look at the wave form, just record the clip of your geetar and input into any of those music editing software, you will see the full form of the instrument signal in waveform

And to see if the sequence does change anything, just record the your instrument thru the pedals, with the digital pedal off(yes, off, dont activate it). After that, input into software, see the waveform. What you can see will just be the effect of having another pedal in the chain(without activating that pedal) and does it affect the overall sound in anyway, not digital or analog characteristic

If you "on" the pedal and record and input into the software, you will see the "effected" waveform(as in whatever that digital pedal is supposed to do, be it delay, ring mod or any other things) and not in term of digital-ness...

i just want to mean that, even with the wave form, theres no way to judge the analogness or digitalness of things. Just use our hearing and decide, whether the sound is for us or against.

 

[Whitestrat]

guitar signal is not really sine wave

If you wanna listen to sine wave at various frequency, google round for it, theres sites with those clips. Its boring as hell, but listening to long hours straight is trippy as well

Whahahaha... true...

I was trying to demonstrate the differences between analog and digital waveforms lah... not so much guitar wave per se...:mrgreen:

 

[Whitestrat]

OOOooo... thanks whitestrat for ur informative post. i guess what learn from the books not very complete, with ur input, now i have a clearer picture. +1 to u.

after assimilating ur input, this is what i understand. correct me if i m wrong k?

1) the original signal from ur guitar is in the form of either a smooth sine or cosine wave. when an analog pedal comes along, it will alter part of the wave directly. wateva the alteration, the end state of the wave is such that the unaltered portion of the original wave is still smooth coz it is unaltered mah, so it must be smooth, right?

Something like that. Except that for musical instruments, the waveform it way too complex to be defined by a formula. The wave would NOT be a smooth sine or cosine, but a combination of multiple such waves at different amplitudes and frequencies to the point it's almost unrecognisable. But zoom into this wave form, and you'll see an almost sine shaped form.

2) if a digital pedal comes along, how it adds effect is by breaking up the entire original signal (the smooth wave) and then simulate the shape of the wave of those of the analog pedals. however, the resultant digital wave formed is not exactly smooth (depending on the "resolution" of the processor). the wave actually consists of many intermediate square waves (steps) that form a bigger sine or cosine like wave.

This is correct... But remember, I'm no sound engineer. Just rehashing what I remember from my Electronics Diploma... Heh...

3) so in that case, if u put a digital pedal after analog pedal, ur wave will be more digital than analog liked.

4) but if u put a analog pedal after a digital pedal, ur wave should also be more digital than analog liked, no?

No. You can't convert a digital signal into an analog one and expect to have full recovery. You can have simulated waveforms, but never a fully restored curve. So, basically if you don't like digital, then never use digital at all.

 

[kym]

haha, i was about to ask whether musical instruments produce nice ideal smooth curves waveform, but looks like u pros answered my queries b4 i asked. haha

so whitestrat, based on what u said, as long as there is a digital effect, the resultant waveform will consists of lotsa "steps" and will not have the "smoothness" of the original waveform, right?

 

[Whitestrat]

so whitestrat, based on what u said, as long as there is a digital effect, the resultant waveform will consists of lotsa "steps" and will not have the "smoothness" of the original waveform, right?

Yes, BUT don't misread this as a "digital effects sound crap" because these days, bit processing has such high resolution that the ear CANNOT tell the difference. If you take a digital effect (say BOSS MT-2) and marry it with the right EQ settings and amp, you'd never know it's digital.

Take this for example. This track was recorded by me thru a PODXTLive and a USB connection straight to a PC. It was recorded in WAV, and then compressed further into MP3. Does this sound digital to you? Is it a bad recording? Are the EFX too digital or crap? You decide.

SoundClick artist: Demioblue - page with MP3 music downloads

Most people who claim that digital sounds bad don't know what they're saying actually. 99% of recordings you hear out there are digitally processed. Simply the medium itself is digital (CDs anyone?). But you can hear great tones and sounds from digital recordings. Does this mean the digital sound is bad? No. It basically means that digital technology has the means to recreate hi-fidelity. Listening to John Mayer's recording of his "Try!" concerts is a prime example. It was a great recording, and many of his tones are awesome! But a lot of what we do with effects can and might be represented differently after the recording.

To understand hi-fidelity, you need to know what it means too. Digital has a lot to do with this:

Fidelity basically means faithful reproduction. It's not about how good a sound system can sound, but more about how accurate a system can sound. For example, I've had people tell me that a hi-hat should sound like this rather than like that, and they claim they get it from this CD or that CD played through this system or that system. Problem is, surprisingly, many of these guys haven't even heard a real drumset played live. In a small studio SP room or in a large Live hall, what matters to me is what I hear from the system. If it's a concert, then It better sound like one. If it's a studio cut recording, it better sound like one.

I've heard so-called setups where they try to make a digital studio recording which was recorded track by track sound live by bringing up the mid freq. That's not right. Yes, it can sound good, but to a recording nut, it's wrong. An experienced ear can tell if the recording was done with the full band playing "live" together in the studio, or done track by track. How was that guitar being recorded? 2 mics? 3 mics? I would know from the recording notes of the musician how it's recorded, and how it should sound. Some setups have the wrong reproduction of the recording. I once heard one where the drums were too far in-your-face and the bass way back in the closet, and the left and right channels mixed up. I just shook my head.

Recordings should be presented in as natural a manner as possible. But whether I like the way this effect sounds or not is dependant on my own tastes. But whether it sounds correct or not is not subjective. That's fidelity. So, if your guitar tone to you is like shit, don't blame it on the method of transfer. It's more likely the settings and the way the effects have been built rather than opposed to analog or digital.

But then again:

Gene Simmons (in a Playboy interview) once said: "If you know the difference between the tones of 2 different bass guitars, then I'd say you know too much to really enjoy the music". I think he's right. whahahaha...

 

[Whitestrat]

Yup... that's very much it. Synthetic sounding? Synthesized music of the '80's doesn't sound bad at all right? In fact most of us still go to Mambo nites at Zouk just for that isn't it......?

Arsony

Dude... Mambo nights are like 10 years ago for me... Lost touch liaoz... They stil playing Bananarama there???:mrgreen: