How to tell if I've no talent at all. (Or maybe its time to change piano teacher)

[mera]

Status update: I just 'fired' my teacher today. The posts here cleared my thinking. Thanks pals.

If she were to ask why I stop my lessons, I'm wondering if I should be honest or cook up some personal reasons.

Adult learners are just way too different from kids (defined as under 16, or 19?) Just not sure what are the main differences..

 

[Cheez]

Update us about your progress.

If she asks you why, just be honest. But don't have to be overly critical or take it personal. Just state the facts as they are. You move on. She moves on.

 

[piano_lessons]

Actually, for higher grades, it doesn't a lot to "demo" how to play it. Anything within the ABRSM grades (1 to 8 is easily achievable. If the teacher cannot show anything up to grade 8, something is really wrong.

By the way, I feel (like pianomankris) that a person who is a grade 8 actually doesn't have the skills to teach. He must have at least a teaching diploma and above. And somebody who has that certification should be able to show anything up to the higher grades without problem, or something is wrong.

I agree. A teacher must be able to play. But the reverse is not necessary true either - ie a person who can play doesn't necessary mean he can teach. It's the marrying of both skills. Sadly, we have many "teachers" that falls wrong camp.

Thanks for the replies
But pianomankris, pf, cheez, and angel, IMO you are generalising the situation here. I and many teachers might not have teaching diplomas yet. But could it guarantee you that someone with one can really teach?

Btw I agree with you regarding the skills of playing and teaching. That's why I said 'teacher who can play' not only those who can either teach only or play only.

At grade 8, all most people can do is play a few scales and a couple of pieces, and sight-read badly. Sorry to any grade 8 folks reading this - but give yourself 10 or 15 years, and when you look back at the level you were at when at 'grade 8', you'll realise it was, at best, shoddy. If even as good as shoddy.

Sad to say many are under this category. But many others are not. I aware that there are many brilliant pianist and music teacher in this forum.But this over-generalisation is too much.

I don't wish to go to details. I just wanna let all know that not all what you called as 'grade-8-piano-teacher' are like that, and vice versa, not all conservatory graduate or one who specialise in piano teaching can suit his teachings to all learners. In fact some times it's just a matter of taste and chemistry.

Playing piano isn't about making money. It just happens that it can make some money for some.

Then can I say that other jobs also like that? Shouldnt you say "teaching piano (and ideally all other jobs) isn't JUST about making money"? IMO teaching piano and playing piano / being a musician can earn someone a living that's to say that it's a type of job. Even composers and great musicians were reportedly having a bunch of students (read- were teachers).

Thanks for sharing the drama.

mera: Nothing wrong with changing teacher if you feel (or in reality) you don't learn anything useful from her. You can say that you want to have different style of teaching. Thank her for sharing her music knowledge. You may see that it's useless but I can guarantee that you must have had obtained something useful from her.

Regards,

 

[pianomankris]

First things first - I don't take kindly to personal attacks.

Thanks for the replies
But pianomankris, pf, cheez, and angel, IMO you are generalising the situation here. I and many teachers might not have teaching diplomas yet. But could it guarantee you that someone with one can really teach?

Go get Associate, Licentiate, and Fellowship diplomas in both teaching and performance, then you can comment on whether or not you think a 'grade 8' tutor (a teacher is different from a tutor, btw) is adequately qualified to teach. If you don't have these, then it is most probably because of a lack of ability on your behalf.

You wrote 'I and many teachers might not have teaching diplomas yet' - in my opinion, you shouldn't be allowed to give lessons. I wish there was a law against this. You're doing more damage than good - even though you think you are helping out. Trust me - you'll look back on this day in maybe 10 years or so and think to yourself 'God, I really didn't have a clue what I was talking about'. Unfortunately the way you will most probably likey do this is by looking at how badly you taught/are tutoring your students in the early years of your tutoring career. Your experience of 'good teaching' will most likely come from completely destroying piano tuition for many kids as you continue to practise being a 'teacher' of piano. Your defense may be 'but I inspire my student' - a good, qualified teacher will do this anyway.

My friend can play a good few chords/songs on the guitar, and has his grade 8. Does this mean he is of an adequate level to teach? And if not, what makes you any different?

I don't wish to go to details. I just wanna let all know that not all what you called as 'grade-8-piano-teacher' are like that, and vice versa, not all conservatory graduate or one who specialise in piano teaching can suit his teachings to all learners. In fact some times it's just a matter of taste and chemistry.

No no - by all means - go into detail. I'm interested to see how far the depth of your research has went here.

BTW I do agree that not all conservatoire graduates make good teachers, but you don't really have the right to say this, since you haven't went through a conservatoire education yourself, so you don't know what you may or may not have learned within said education system, and if you did have a conservatoire education, you would know far more about teaching approaches and technical issues than you would as you do now, as a grade 8 tutor. For a start, for most conservatoires, you have to be at least grade 8 to even get a foot in the door. And that's just to begin your musical education.

I don't dispute that you may be able to tutor someone up to a point, but when it comes to issues of interpretation etc (e.g. Schenkerian analysis etc), I think you'll be completely lost, and when it comes to issues of technique, you'll also be completely lost, since, Like I said, you won't even have covered it, being a 'grade 8' tutor, as absolutely nothing of this sort is covered in grade 8. For example, could you show someone how to play a note properly? I mean a single note?

Then can I say that other jobs also like that? Shouldnt you say "teaching piano (and ideally all other jobs) isn't JUST about making money"? IMO teaching piano and playing piano / being a musician can earn someone a living that's to say that it's a type of job. Even composers and great musicians were reportedly having a bunch of students (read- were teachers).

Once again, you're assuming i'm talking here out of ignorance, and generalising. I'd say no - it isn't about money at all. I thought I made that obvious in my reply. I thought I also made it obvious that yes, playing piano can make money. But that making money isn't the reason for sacrificing up to a third of each day (or more) practising. Unlike the 'normal' job, where time put in = money earned (8 hours at work = 8 hours' wages, unlike the pianist who sacrifices literally hundreds of unpaid hours in order to gain one or two paid hours. But my point is gaining a 'few paid hours' isn't the reason for playing. If it is, you're doing it for the wrong reasons).

I have made money from music, so I wouldn't be as silly as to say 'music can't make money'. An obvious example is Haydn/Esterhazy. Haydn would have been poor if it wasn't for that family, and his music wouldn't have been known/published. Like I said, i'm well aware of the apparent 'necessity' of the musician to make a living. Do you know how Bach's music came to be known?

And yes, of course many famous pianists were also famous teachers. I've mentioned a few in some other threads. Who do you particularly consider to be/have been great teacher/performers, and why?


I give up my time here to help people who want to learn, and I like to provide what may be a different viewpoint, since i'm not Singaporean (and I only really post in the 'how to' section, since that's what I know. Others here e.g. Cheez know far more than me when it comes to music technology etc. I read their posts, and learn from them), not to argue with arrogant young grade 8'ers who think they know how to teach because they have shown 'little Molly' two doors down how to bash out a few songs at the piano.

If you have an opinion about something that you feel justifies attacking my opinion personally, back it up with fact.

Maybe i'm in a bad mood. If so, Cheez, I apologise. Anyway I won't be posting for about a week, as i'm off to... Singapore!! lol

 

[widdly]

Disagreeing is not a personal attack.

Discussion can only exist with a plurality of opinions.

Auto-didactics exist in all fields.

Many pedagogies exist with in each field.

Qualifications don't imply competency just as competency doesn't imply certification.

 

[Cheez]

Yes, perhaps it's an over-generalisation. I apologize if it comes out this way. OK. I agree that not all grade-8 can't teach. I like to think I can teach to a certain extent!

Perhaps another scenario.

Any person can be a tuition teacher (yes, I was one too during the days when I need to earn some pocket money). But without going through Institute of Education, it's hard to certify that person to be qualified as a teacher. Granted - not all teachers graduated from IE are good teachers. And not all tutors who did not graduate from IE cannot teach. But generally speaking (we can't escape from some form of generalisation here...), most teachers who graduated from IE are better trained as teachers than those who did not. That's because we are not talking about simple transfer of knowledge. Teaching is more than that.

This is not an attack on grade-eighters who are teachers. While qualifications don't imply competency and vice versa, certain disciplines do require qualifications and they do serve a purpose. Teaching, I believe, is one of those. So...for those who have a passion for teaching, I encourage you to pursue qualifications in teaching, not for the sake of paper-chase, but to be a better teacher and to hone your teaching skills. A person with a passion to teach should understand that. Again, this does not imply that those who don't have certification are not good teachers. You can be better.

 

[piano_lessons]

First things first - I don't take kindly to personal attacks.

If you have an opinion about something that you feel justifies attacking my opinion personally, back it up with fact.

I did not attack anybody here.
But if I did offend you or any of you in one or other way, I sincerely apologise, I didn't mean to. I was just stating the fact that at least in Singapore, many teachers do not have Diploma in teaching. If you have one, respect to you.
In fact, many only have LRSM or LTCL, (including at least five of my past piano tutors) and IMO their teaching style is not much better from mine.
I did not intend to boast or offend anybody but that's the fact.
For goodness sake how many FRSM holder are there here in Singapore?

BTW I do agree that not all conservatoire graduates make good teachers, but you don't really have the right to say this, since you haven't went through a conservatoire education yourself, so you don't know what you may or may not have learned within said education system, and if you did have a conservatoire education, you would know far more about teaching approaches and technical issues than you would as you do now, as a grade 8 tutor.

One of my ex teacher, graduated from a conservatory in Vienna, actually did not bother how to motivate, technique and how to improve, how to appreciate and interpret music.

You're doing more damage than good - even though you think you are helping out. Trust me - you'll look back on this day in maybe 10 years or so and think to yourself 'God, I really didn't have a clue what I was talking about'. Unfortunately the way you will most probably likey do this is by looking at how badly you taught/are tutoring your students in the early years of your tutoring career. Your experience of 'good teaching' will most likely come from completely destroying piano tuition for many kids as you continue to practise being a 'teacher' of piano. Your defense may be 'but I inspire my student' - a good, qualified teacher will do this anyway.

If you don't mind, may I know what qualifications do you have?


You don't even know me, how could you say that?
A lot of you remarks are disdainful, sarcastic and rude.
Even if you have fellowship diploma in teaching and a top graduate from Julliard, Who are you to judge me and other people like that?

Can you define what do you mean by 'good teaching'?
Who are the people in Singapore do you consider as good piano teachers?

My friend can play a good few chords/songs on the guitar, and has his grade 8. Does this mean he is of an adequate level to teach?

Of course he can teach at least beginners level. I mean is there a need to pay >$100 per lesson for Conservatory graduate with degree in music teaching to teach someone a basic guitar playing? Of course if you are wealthy by all means go ahead, but is there really a need to do so?

No no - by all means - go into detail. I'm interested to see how far the depth of your research has went here.

Did I ever mention about research?
I seriously do not want to add fuel to the 'discussions' we already had.

I'd say no - it isn't about money at all.

Glad to know this. Most people are aware most professional piano teachers charge exorbitant fees without sincerely imparting their knowledge. Not to mention that many of them can't really perform / give demo. If only they have mindset like you..
respect*

You may be a well-qualified person to teach music, but instead of ranting your dissatisfaction here, why not share more of your knowledge with fellow piano players?

 

[piano_lessons]

Disagreeing is not a personal attack.

Discussion can only exist with a plurality of opinions.

Auto-didactics exist in all fields.

Many pedagogies exist with in each field.

Qualifications don't imply competency just as competency doesn't imply certification.

Yes, perhaps it's an over-generalisation. I apologize if it comes out this way. OK. I agree that not all grade-8 can't teach. I like to think I can teach to a certain extent!

Perhaps another scenario.

Any person can be a tuition teacher (yes, I was one too during the days when I need to earn some pocket money). But without going through Institute of Education, it's hard to certify that person to be qualified as a teacher. Granted - not all teachers graduated from IE are good teachers. And not all tutors who did not graduate from IE cannot teach. But generally speaking (we can't escape from some form of generalisation here...), most teachers who graduated from IE are better trained as teachers than those who did not. That's because we are not talking about simple transfer of knowledge. Teaching is more than that.

This is not an attack on grade-eighters who are teachers. While qualifications don't imply competency and vice versa, certain disciplines do require qualifications and they do serve a purpose. Teaching, I believe, is one of those. So...for those who have a passion for teaching, I encourage you to pursue qualifications in teaching, not for the sake of paper-chase, but to be a better teacher and to hone your teaching skills. A person with a passion to teach should understand that. Again, this does not imply that those who don't have certification are not good teachers. You can be better.

Thanks for the reply.
How I wish I could continue my study in music..
Thanks for the understanding replies and encouragement.

 

[pianomankris]

You may be a well-qualified person to teach music, but instead of ranting your dissatisfaction here, why not share more of your knowledge with fellow piano players?

I have been. Have you read any of my posts? I've gave help with beginner's pop piano, and with jazz theory, Amongst other things. These particualr things, since these are the things people are interested in learning. If people wanted to learn how to write counterpoint, i'd help them with that. I'm helping people with what they want to learn.

I'd say my contribution here is considerable. Actually, any time someone has asked for help, i've tried my best to give them as detailed a reply as possible, in order to help them understand the issue at hand, as well as knowing what to do. I've shared plenty of knowledge here. Some you could probably use yourself. Ask others here.

Some threads in this section I don't touch because others have covered the issues in enough detail to help the thread starter, and have answered the issues clearly and succinctly. I contribute to the specific threads I feel that seem to be drifting along, with the thread starter not getting the help they asked for.



RE my qualifications - Degree from the Royal Academy of Music, Masters from the Ecole Normale de Musique de Paris, Associate, Licentiate, and Fellowship diplomas in piano performance, teaching, and music thesis (LCM for the last one), and Associate and Licentiate diplomas for guitar performance. Attended masterclasses with the likes of Boris Berman and Stephen Hough. And had an album release of my own compositions here in the UK. And I perform regularly at private recitals.

Is that enough for you?
To everyone else - I don't like to talk like this, as it sounds like boasting, and I haven't mentioned this because I feel the posts speak for themselves. But i'm being pushed on this one by this guy.



I don't think it's a generalisation to say grade 8'ers can't teach properly. That's how I personally feel. There are too many gaps in their knowledge for them to be able to 'cover all tracks', as it were. And if they have covered the gaps, either through tutoring experience, or through actual research, then they should sit a higher level exam to show they have covered the gaps, whether it be, as I said, through research, or through actual performance. Anyone who will disagree with me will be a grade 8 tutor. As if you had your diplomas, you would see where i'm coming from.

And this isn't about 'me'. Or you, for that matter. It's about the people we teach, and giving them the best possible start in their journey on their instrument.

BTW I don't think the grade 8 player shouldn't be allowed to teach because of their playing - for me it's more to do with what they know in all other aspects. The playing helps, but as has been pointed out, isn't necessary in order to be a good teacher. The teaching diplomas hardly touch on performance from the teacher's side, anyway.

I don't understand this. If finances are a problem, put by a small amount each week/month so you will have enough to take the necessary diplomas, whether it be in 6 months, a year, or two years or more.


Like I said, at grae 8 you probably don't know how to play a single note properly. Or, I should say, know the different ways in which it is considered best to play a note properly. How can you therefore help others, when the most basic aspect of your playing is probably lacking?


Anyway i'm off to savour the heat over your way ) It's surely better than the bloody freezing weather here lol

 

[[vogue]angel]

it's been a few days since i posted. ( I was in some crazyl eadership camp in the middle of an oil palm plantation). Anyway, tat is besides the point. I also wanna apologize if my comments have offended anyone here.

From all the previous post, after getting my grade 8 for around 7 yrs. I also can conclude that i fall into the category that Pianomankris says, can play a few notes n so on and have crap sight-reading. ( tat's why i dun wanna teach, pai seh )

just my 2 cents worth, I really appreaciate the how to play things by pianomankris. Really open my eyes. (Come on, it's an eye opener to be able to learn from someone who went through all the conservatory n so on.)

pianomankris, Is there such a prob in the UK where people with knowledge of grade 8 teaching? ( just curious on this, since diff country)

btw, I always thought pianomankris is from outer space. ( coz he's qualification makes me feel like his not from this earth, must be from space )

 

[kongwee]

RE my qualifications - Degree from the Royal Academy of Music, Masters from the Ecole Normale de Musique de Paris, Associate, Licentiate, and Fellowship diplomas in piano performance, teaching, and music thesis (LCM for the last one), and Associate and Licentiate diplomas for guitar performance. Attended masterclasses with the likes of Boris Berman and Stephen Hough. And had an album release of my own compositions here in the UK. And I perform regularly at private recitals.

(Got eyes not on tai mountain)

 

[MarkDrumsYou]

here we go... CERT ATTACKS!!! =)

 

[pianomankris]

Just back from Singapore Good God it's warm!! As per usual!! And back to sunny Scotland, measuring in at 8C tonight!! lol

pianomankris, Is there such a prob in the UK where people with knowledge of grade 8 teaching? ( just curious on this, since diff country)

Yes to an extent there is this problem in the UK. But in general in the UK, the public are more aware of the qualification framework, and will in most cases not allow someone of 'grade 8' level to teach their kids/themselves. Grade 8 here isn't really held in such high esteem, and is seen more as something that kids do during school as supplementary to class lessons, rather than as a useful formal qualification per se.

btw, I always thought pianomankris is from outer space. ( coz he's qualification makes me feel like his not from this earth, must be from space )

I just had a sheltered upbringing lol. Closest city is like 50 miles away and there is bugger all else to do haha. Nothing else for it but practise lol. One of the 'benefits' of living in the wilds lol PS as part of the Academy course, we could choose to do the diplomas - so the end result was a degree and a good few diplomas under the belt