GET OUT OF THE DAMN BOX!!!

ShredCow

New member
Here's a rant and lesson wrapped in one ... and yeah, its abt GETTING OUT OF THE DAMN BOX!!! :evil:

Its been just too often, that I hear the Em Pentatonic played over that E power chord riff; Its the same DAMN scale over and over again... Same sounding licks over and over again... Same chinese pentatonic flavour... Same bluesy flavour... I mean, COME ON GUYS!!! How many times have WE, as musicians, heard an enjoyable solo of whatever standard, and said to ourselves, "Now, that is some serious creativity!"?

Too many times, a musician holes himself up in the good ole pentatonic... doing the same runs up and down... only difference being the positioning, order the notes run, duration of notes held and whatever fancy stuff like vibrato or efx.

I've grown SICK, SICK I SAY! Of hearing that same pentatonic run up and down, up and down... For one player thats so guilty of it, its Joe Satriani. Once he was regarded as an innovator... now, my goodness. He resides in Pentatonic Avenue (The Safest Way). Sure, some of you may say that he does innovate with middle eastern melodies... weird efx... but gone are the days where he played the Extremist. Always with You, Always with me. Flying in a Blue Dream. Its now, "Starry starry night" stuff...

So right now, here's a simple lesson on GETTING OUT OF THE DAMN BOX!!!

Lets talk abt being INNOVATIVE.

Over a simple progression like this:
E5 E5 C5 D5

What can you play? Yes. You can play that Em pentatonic for the whole progression and have me (and a couple of others) fall asleep.

How abt playing this?
E major.... then switch to E minor on the C5 and D5?
OR
E lydian... then switch to C minor on the C5 and D minor on the D5?

We all know that the almighty power chord is really, the almighty power chord. But how many of us realise that its really really, the almighty chord to IMPROVISE over?
Without the 3rd of the chord (E.g. C = C E G; C5 = C G) , the power chord is ambiguous and therefore, you can play either minor or major tones over it.
Now THAT is versatility. And that is why metal/rock shouldn't be boring.

Lets get back to this.
"E lydian... then switch to C minor on the C5 and D minor on the D5??"

On the E5 chord of the above progression, because E5 is ambiguous, neither major or minor... you can play the following scales.

- EVERYTHING thats in E.

Now, the NORM is to play in Em penta or E harmonic minor or E minor. Lets get out of it.
I choose the Lydian mode (major scale with sharpen 4th) , my fave mode.
So over the E5 chord... I go improvise in Lydian... taking care to emphasize the sharpen 4th.
When we come to the C5, why did I say improvise in C minor? Well, thats because I choose to make the C5 chord take on the tonality of a Cm chord. And so there is a key change to Cm. So there I go... Improvising in C minor.
Next, I choose D minor for the D5 chord for the same reason as above. Key changes to D minor.
So when the track is played out, I switch between different flavours of the dreamy lydian and the sad sounding minor... plus, the change in key from E5 to C5 then C5 to D5, gives a nice sonic twist.

So look here Musician. GET OUT OF THE DAMN BOX!!! Be innovative, think differently and BE CREATIVE.

There. Rant is done and so is my lesson. Chill people. 8)
 
WOOOOO!!! HOOOOO!!!! a disgruntled guitarist. :smt062 :smt064 :smt075 :smt076 :smt074 :smt077 :smt098 :smt071 :smt070 :smt073
 
watever it is..the word here is melody..regardless of any scales u use..

juz look at santana, satriani, oasis one of the richest band on earth and many more to mention who still use dat simple scale..earning money from juz simple melodic notes. r people getting sick of them? and i wonder y them and not other people who made it?..wats so great about them? actualli its how u play over the scale..

what u suggested is not considered out of the box to some people..its a norm..for some, they already got sick of all scales...so they never use any scales other than the weighing scale..i mean the 'X' scale..
 
True true... melody IS important. Great point. :)

But my rant/lesson is more for people who have found the pentatonic tired and wanting, and they feel a need to get out of that repeatative cycle. So there's a couple of ideas for you up there. 8)

BTW, to disregard the fact that there are other scales to use... and stick to only the pentatonic... is limiting and not in the spirit of music. I'd go out on a limb here and say this, Musicians are to be innovators, not robots. :wink:

Ppl may like Blink 182, Oasis, Simple Plan and all... and they earn millions. But would you seriously look up to them as innovators? As real musicians? Ah then again, thats subjective.

In anycase, ppl are free to decide what kind of stuff they wanna play... I'm tired of the pentatonic... so I ranted...

Next up though, will be a lesson on playing the pentatonic creatively. It IS a great scale to use IF used properly. :p
 
Ermmm... If you suck in the box...

Then practice lah. :wink:

If you don't know your way in the box... well, you can still go out of the box if you know your theory. :p
 
dhalif said:
it would suck even more if you try going out when you dont even know the insides..

haha,good 1 dude, power la =)

and shredcow,why dun u record some stuff and show us how to get out from that damn box? since u wrote a long wonderful essay on this thing and frankly speaking, im quite sad to see ur comment on satriani,if playing pentatonic scale can give me that satriani's heavenly touch,then i'll choose to stay in the box forever dude,hehe,cheers mate
 
ShredCow said:
True true... melody IS important. Great point. :)


Ppl may like Blink 182, Oasis, Simple Plan and all... and they earn millions. But would you seriously look up to them as innovators? As real musicians? Ah then again, thats subjective.

in terms of technique and stuff,i dun see them as innovators,but in terms of groove and song arrangement and all the shit related to them,they are innovators to me

real musicians? how real is real musicians? the bands u mentioned above might not innovate some powerful technique that peep nvr see before, but hey,they are playing their music and it attract lotsa peeps' attention,thats real musicians to me,to play what u like and get people acknowledge u for all the things that you've played... :wink:

ps:im not a fan of blink,oasis or simple plan
 
well... a simple way to work your music is: ignore all scales.

play what sounds good to you, not that's supposed to be played. especially if u start moving into uncharted territory (indian sounding music, egyptian scales), you might not have information or knowledge of them. i would recommend trial and error, and a mix/match of everything that u find to be appropriate for the music.

if you need to "forcefit" a certain chord into a scale for some reason, add the root note of the key of the song to the chord.. ie for E major key, you want to force C and D inside... try playing C major (CEG) and Dsus2(DF#AE) (or variants). They tend to sound less dissonant with the root note in the chord.
 
i personally think one of the big boxes that many young guitarists are trapped in is that they play only rock/metal. in general, heavy sounding stuff. most electric players like to play rock.. distortion, fuzzbox.. nothing wrong with that.

just that i think it'd be good experience for guitarists to venture out of this field/genre and explore others. top 40s, for one. or reggae. or blues. it's really quite challenging, getting the right feel and tone for each song. as well as the parts. no more chugga chugga barre chords or shredding licks. you'll be forced to think more melodically, and more musically as u try to improvise and come up with your own parts to complement the rest of the band to add your layer of fullness to the sound.

just a suggestion for those who feel like they're stagnating, and for those who've already become proficient with the 'insides of the box' to further develop their talent.
 
Well, I kind of expected the replies to what I had to say... :)

I find that musicians on a whole, when a move is made to move them out of their comfort zone, their box, they immediately throw up a wall and start getting all defensive abt getting out of the box. .

Frankly guys, how many of you, for the sake for versatility and variety, take a walk out of the box you are in?

This is of course, by no means, a flaming session... I can rant all I want and you wouldn't need to do anything... BUT, if what I said can move a musician to think innovatively and get out, I'm glad! :D And I believe thats something thats lacking in the guitarist scene here...


dhalif said:
it would suck even more if you try going out when you dont even know the insides..

Well man, I don't see whats so sucky abt going out of the box when you don't know your insides well. :) If you are willing to do so, you can do it. Its just like practising your first pentatonic pattern...


reyrey said:
and shredcow,why dun u record some stuff and show us how to get out from that damn box? since u wrote a long wonderful essay on this thing and frankly speaking, im quite sad to see ur comment on satriani,if playing pentatonic scale can give me that satriani's heavenly touch,then i'll choose to stay in the box forever dude,hehe,cheers mate

I've got stuff at http://music.download.com/Shredcows. Check out Road Runner, Dream and the SOFT Jam Excerpt.

And as for satch... I do think he's a great player.. but I don't think he innovates the way he used to do so... its his choice though and IMO, its a bad choice. :wink:



reyrey said:
real musicians? how real is real musicians? the bands u mentioned above might not innovate some powerful technique that peep nvr see before, but hey,they are playing their music and it attract lotsa peeps' attention,thats real musicians to me,to play what u like and get people acknowledge u for all the things that you've played... :wink:

Well, like what I said, its subjective... to a 14 yr old kid, blink182 might be THE guitar heroes for him...


thor666 said:
well... a simple way to work your music is: ignore all scales.

play what sounds good to you, not that's supposed to be played. especially if u start moving into uncharted territory (indian sounding music, egyptian scales), you might not have information or knowledge of them. i would recommend trial and error, and a mix/match of everything that u find to be appropriate for the music.

if you need to "forcefit" a certain chord into a scale for some reason, add the root note of the key of the song to the chord.. ie for E major key, you want to force C and D inside... try playing C major (CEG) and Dsus2(DF#AE) (or variants). They tend to sound less dissonant with the root note in the chord.

This is a fine way of getting out of the box... IF you can visualise what you are going to play and do it uniquely. If you ask a lay person to improvise with his voice.. chances are, he would improvise in the major key. Ask a good jazz singer and you might get chromatics and modes peppered all over the improvisation. I'm not saying jazz is totally awesome...

So thats the limitation of not learning scales; people tend to stay in whats comfortable and natural to them... like pentatonics and major scales...
 
iansoh said:
i personally think one of the big boxes that many young guitarists are trapped in is that they play only rock/metal...

I totally agree with you man...

I realised how inadequate I was when I had to play jazz.. MAN, that was HELLA tough... Gone was my pentatonics and "cool" bluesy licks... no more screaming harmonics... tapping stuff... No distortion at all!!!
Worse... I had to play with a band! That meant thinking jazz-ily AND fitting into a jazz band.
So I had to learn how to colour my solos and stop sounding bluesy... but jazzy... So modes and diminished scales came into my vocab...
:)
 
well.. seriously mate.. you can't make people think or play like you.. from your first post.. it's like... ur making us all play like you. Guitar playing is freedom mate.. in or out of box.. if you sound good.. why not? and satch does play out of the box.. so considering you're saying that as not playing out of box... what you REALLY mean is playing weird stuff isn't it? it's like.. You're Daniel.. im Dhalif.. we're both different.. we play ddifferent styles.. im not in favour of many weird stuff.. but i do acknowledge it..but you can't make me play it.... because its just different approach.. and i really think playing out of the box means going out of the usual shape and go into note choosing rather than scales.. Satriani does that.. i do as well.. so if you dont agree then ur talking more bout playing like you than playing out of the box yeah?
 
oh yeah and by the way... the example you gave on what to play over that progression.. isn't that still on scales? its all the same if you play scales
 
although i'm a pianist/keyboardist here....

shredcow , i find a lot of meaning in ur ranting and i respect u for that.
although i just started Jazz Theory on the piano last week , i guess i could impress my teacher with the kind of info i absorbed during the improvisation lesson u gave on ur first thread...

yes being a classically trained pianist , i find some discomfort in learning jazz music.i can almost say goodbye to the traditional methods of playing which i'm so used to all these months but rather say hello to more emphasis on chords and modes.in addition to that i found that there are so many variations to the C chord alone.u have Csus4 , Cm7b5 , C13 , C6 etc.

indeed i have learned loads of stuff concerning improvisation in ur ranting sessions which i thought i could apply to my playing and giving the music i want the much needed feel it deserves....

cheers :D
 
dhalif said:
Guitar playing is freedom mate.. in or out of box.. if you sound good.. why not??


Yeah man.. guitar playing IS freedom... so I ranted. :wink:

And really man, I really wanted to give a guitar lesson... so if you would kindly respect my freedom to rant and consider the lesson more thoroughly, rather than thinking that I'm trying to do clones of myself around... :cry:
I meant well in my post, to try and give that little push to that someone who might be struggling with finding an identity, or to open the minds of those who never thought of stuff like that... so yeah...
And its bad if there's so many of me around!!! Out of the box would become in the box! But that isn't the case as you stated... you are you and I am I. :wink:

As for satch, thats your opinion and i respect that... 8)
 
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