DAW advice?

[LuZeR]

There seems to be a number of threads regarding setting up of DAWs and all that, so I decided to make another thread too! lol

So, currently im using my laptop which runs reason 3, some free vsts and ableton live lite and im using them for jamming with my friends. It works fine so far. Would it be too much if i get the system to do recording/mixdown and music scoring as well? Im a keyboardist btw

My current set up:
Toshiba laptop (80gb hdd, 512mb ram, 1.6GHZ centrino) running:
Ableton Live Lite 5
Reason 3
free vsts: Synth1, Organized Trio, GT Player Express
M-Audio Firewire Solo soundcard
Motif 8

I originally intended to get Mpowered ProTools but since Im gonna do film scoring as well, Im thinking of getting Gigastudio 3 instead since it is a sampler which also does recording and it's good for mixdown too. Im doing a little recording and mixing now on Ableton Live Lite but it's not doing it for me since you cant save and can only have a max of 4 audio and 4 midi tracks. Will my laptop be able to handle all that should i purchase Gigastudio 3 and maybe get an external hdd and also a good pair of headphones for mixdown?

 

[Cheez]

Gigastudio works best as a dedicated software (ie itself + sequencer). GS3 is not VST - so you cannot run it together with other VSTis and other programs. For GS, you start the sequencer from within GS instead of the other way round. The latest GVI is a VST plug-in. Remember that standalone is best - GVI because it is a VSTi, will take up more CPU resources.

What type of scoring are you thinking of? If you are thinking of orchestral, GS3 will be the way to go. Otherwise, you may want to consider Kontakt 2 which does well for other types of music.

For GS3, can still have VSTis in your machine - it's just that they cannot be used simulataneously. What I do is that I do all my scoring in GS then render them into audio files. Then I exit everything, restart my Logic without GS, load the audio file in Logic, then load any other VSTis I need.

It's a little troublesome, but for orchestral scoring, nothing comes close to GS. Because GS is made this way, it is highly efficient. Kontakt cannot load as many instances/instruments as GS (many reported having to use multiple PCs). In GS, I can load an entire orchestral template and sometimes even together with my 2GB piano and still have RAM left (all in one notebook). CPU usage is very well optimised. Latency lower than Kontakt (according to my experience).

M-audio Firewire solo has GSIF2 drivers - so you are safe.

Note also for GS to work well, you'll need a dedicated hard-drive other than the one in your notebook - one with a fast seek-time and min 72000rpm. A external firewire/USB2.0 drive will suffice. Also, you'll need lots of RAM - 512MB is barely just enough. You need min 1GB if you want to load more instruments. More than 1GB is recommended.

One word of caution - you mention that you're thinking of GS3 for "recording and mixdown". If you meant the "capture to audio" function in GS, it's not really recommended unles you are going to capture the entire mix in one go. Somehow, for various reasons, if you capture audio in bits and pieces, the timing goes slightly off and doesn't sync when you try to mix around with them in your sequencer later on. So for complicated mixes, I still route my GS to my soundcard and record it into Logic - then mixdown from there. For simple once off mixes, "capture to audio" is fine.

Other than GS, you should be able to use your notebook for mixdown together with what you already have. Sounds like you need some other sequencer other than your limited Ableton Live Lite.

 

[LuZeR]

oops, my bad. I forgotten that I've just upgraded to Ableton Live Lite 5 M-Audio version which allows me to save my sessions! But it is still limited with 4 audio and 4 midi simultaneous tracks only.

but you're right, I do need a new sequencer because of its limitations. Well, it's a free software so what to expect eh?

You mentioned that there will be syncing problems during playback when capturing audio unless all is done in 1 sitting? Because I intend to record guitars and bass and maybe vocals and surely that will need at least a few recording sessions. If that is the case then being that Giga is ReWire capable, is it possible to record audio tracks in Live instead, rewire it to GS and mix it from there? Other than the fact that Live Lite 5 gives me limited tracks, it also allows limited effects/plug ins for use too.

I can live with the fact that I cant use VSTs in GS, that's what I've been doing now anyway since Reason doesnt play VSTs as well.

You're spot on abt composing orchestral music. The reason why I changed my mind from mpowered protools to Giga is because if Giga can record audio and has orchestral libraries too....why not?

 

[Cheez]

Because I intend to record guitars and bass and maybe vocals and surely that will need at least a few recording sessions. If that is the case then being that Giga is ReWire capable, is it possible to record audio tracks in Live instead, rewire it to GS and mix it from there? Other than the fact that Live Lite 5 gives me limited tracks, it also allows limited effects/plug ins for use too.

Let me try to get it right - you want to record LIVE audio + midi tracks in GS. We first need to clarify a few things:

1. Rewire works from GS to sequencer, not the other way around. That only means you'll see your GS instruments appearing in your sequencer/midi tracks.

2. The GS mixer is ONLY for the samples loaded into GS. I don't touch those very much - just make sure that I get the right volume and panning to start with. Then any volume changes during the sequencing is done within the sequencer when I'm sequencing - the sequencer records the volume or whatever cc changes you have and GS mixer changes correspondingly. The GS mixer does not mix your audio tracks in your sequencer.

3. Because GS is not a VSTi and the sequencer runs from within GS, you'll only be able to hear the sequences running from within GS. Any audio tracks you recorded or other VSTi loaded in your sequencer will not make any sound. To have sounds from your audio tracks, you'll need to select ASIO or MME or whatever other audio drivers to make it sound. GS uses GSIF drivers and cannot run together with other audio drivers. So when GS is running, other drivers will be shut off and GSIF will automatically be used.

That also means, back to my previous thread, the only way around it is to get your GS mix recorded into audio first. Make sure you're happy with the mix. Then exit GS, start your sequencer without GS and load the GS audio file. Then record you other audio tracks (live or whatever) over that - like over a backing track. The other way, of course, is use more than 2 PCs - one dedicated to GS and one for sequencing/audio recording. The GS PC will run like an outboard sampler/sound module. The latter solution may not work for you since you plan to use one notebook.

Another solution if you really don't want the hassle, is to use softsamplers other than GS. VSL had come out with libraries running their own engines (VST); EWQLSO and GPO are also options. Remember that GS is really powered for orchestral music - if you want to use that, you should really get a proper sequencer. With the current newer GS libraries, I can easily use 50-60 midi tracks for one piece of orchestral music alone. I know of people who used more than 100 tracks - but I'm not that patient. Too many tracks and I get tired...

 

[LuZeR]

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up for me Cheez. I was actually eyeing for Gigastudio Ensemble since it is going for a discounted price if purchased through the online store but I realised getting that version would defeat the purpose of composing orchestral music because I wont get the VSL instruments bundled with the Orchestra version. Bummer.

Hmm, if that's the case...I might wanna go for GPO instead. And save up for mpowered protools in future.

 

[teraslasch]

If you want to run GPO, min. you should have is 1gb ram, i think you should upgrade your laptop if you really wanna get into softsynths and recording

 

[Cheez]

Luzer, you won't get VSL bundled with the Orchestra version either. The one bundled is called VGS - a tailed down version of VSL.

You'll need to plan very carefully at this stage what exactly do you want to do in the future.

Going GPO way will mean going the Kontakt way. That means you'll be using plug-ins etc. Do know that GPO, although very usable and good, is still entry-level. Of course, the Advanced version will change that - keep a lookout for it. If you are seriously into orchestral writing, Kontakt way will limit you because Kontakt engine is just not that efficient. Running GPO on one machine is fine. Running anything more powerful than that (like EWQLSO), you'll need more than 1 PC. Also, running multiple Kompakt/Kontakt engines of various libraries may not be possible - you'll be limited to the number of softsampler you can load in one instance. For example, you have GPO loaded, you'll probably want some E bass loaded (another VST sampler engine loaded), plus some other drums - you hit the ceiling and your CPU can't take that. I'm not sure if you can load in the whole orchestral template with other VST loaded. The plus side of Kontakt, is of course it is a plug-in, and it is good for other genre of music (it is more versatile in this area).

For me, because my main composition is orchestral, I've chosen the GS way. Actually, it's also because I had the GS since version 1 (before Kontakt was born). I've deliberated about switching to Kontakt, but realised from reviews and comments that GS is still more efficient for large orchestral writing. I'm happy to be able to load everything into one machine - and use it live. My usual template - violins 1 and 2, violas, cello, double bass, flute, piccolo, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, trumpets, trombones, horns, harp, cymbals, tympani, snare, bass drum, e bass, drum set, maybe some vocals, some of the above WITH MULTIPLE ARTICULATIONS (ie some of the above x 3-4 instruments) - you can do the math how many instruments are loaded. Sometimes I add in piano with that, but cannot be a large piano. All this can be loaded into 1 PC and run at one time - I get no clicks or pops. Kontakt can never do that.

There are pros and cons. It all depends how heavy into orchestral writing you are going into. If you're not into heavy orchestral writing, I won't recommend GS.

 

[teraslasch]

Wah cheez, after hearing you say that hor, i think i should switch to GS liao .. lol..

 

[Cheez]

Of course, GS is not perfect. The down-side - it is not a plug-in. Many people get really irritated by that. But there's no choice - to be efficient (and running at Windows Kernel level) that's the only way. Also, you need to buy libraries. Unlike GPO and EWQLSO - you get the library and Kontakt build-in. You don't need an extra softsampler. That also means more cost if you use GS.

But like all people who are into gears, samples are the same - you build up your libraries over time and slowly. But there's one downside with samples - for hardware, the older vintage ones still have some value (like the old anlaog synths); for samples, the technology is constantly improving and so older libraries are literally being replaced by new libraries making the old ones obsolete. The sampling technology follows closely to the PC technology - and you can foresee that the PC is never going to be stagnant.

 

[teraslasch]

Agreed totally. But if im rich, or a prof. musician and have enough cash flow, i'll get all the top standalone libraries as well as GS haha.. then can have best of both worlds..

 

[LuZeR]

Ok,

I've been doing some thinking and I've decided that I should do away with my current laptop. I bought it thru school but I'm in my final year now and after that is NS, so I thought it'd be a good idea that I move on to a desktop solution.

I'm not sure how much money I'll get back by selling my current laptop but the amount of returns will determine which desktop solution I can go for. Currently I'm thinking of getting either a MacMini or a diy PC.

MacMini:
While I know Gigastudio doesnt work on mac, the size of the MacMini makes it so tempting that it seems possible to lug around (with an lcd screen lol) for my jamming sessions. Its price is not far off my budget. I already have a mouse but I will need the usb keyboard, RAM upgrade to 1gb and an external HDD. Reason 3 and M-powered ProTools work on it as well.

Specs:
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
2MB L2 Cache
667MHz Frontside Bus
1gb RAM (after upgrade)
80GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Apple Remote
Intel GMA950 graphics processor with 64MB of shared DDR2 SDRAM
10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet
4 USB 2.0 ports
1 FireWire 400 port
USB keyboard
Price with student discount: $1552.95

Diy PC:
It may seem impractical to lug a cpu and lcd to jamming sessions but I might just go crazy and do it if it means lower costs compared to a MacMini. I will still need to get an external HDD and a usb keyboard. I'm not sure if I got the specs for a diy pc right to run Reason 3, M-powered ProTools and Giga but comment on the following:

Pentium 4 2.8GHz?
1gb RAM
80gb HDD (7200 rpm)
External usb/firewire 120 HDD (7200 rpm)
4 usb 2.0 ports
2 firewire (6 pin) ports
CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive
Ethernet
Graphic card? not sure abt it
USB keyboard

Price: ? not sure