Whitestrat
New member
I've been "just wacking" for the past 20 years of playing... I'm still "just wacking"...:mrgreen:
my wacking examples are in my siggy...:mrgreen:
Creating solos...
- Thread starter most_wanted
- Start date
I've been "just wacking" for the past 20 years of playing... I'm still "just wacking"...:mrgreen:
my wacking examples are in my siggy...:mrgreen:
sophronesis
New member
correct (10char)
vernplum
New member
http://gitbuddy.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/worlds-most-useless-soloing-advice-part-1/
http://gitbuddy.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/worlds-most-useless-soloing-advice-part-2/
PART 1
-------
Quite often you will see newbie players posting questions on the online guitar forums such as:
“Help - how do i construct a solo?” or “How do I play a solo over Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door?”.
You’ll see some sensible suggestions from older players along the lines of “work out what the chords are in the progression, find a matching scale and maybe try to target some of the chord tones” or “associate a pentatonic with a particular chord and when that chord comes up, play that scale” and other stuff which while it may not be the most sophisticated approach in the world does state clear steps that the player can apply immediately to achieve some usable results. You might possibly also see some major overkill answer from some hardcore Jazzer that involves complex substitutions and polychordal harmony that use every scale and mode known to man which is years beyond the capability of the original poster, but the point of this post is that you will also see many, many more one-liner replies which will all be variations of:
“Just play by ear.”
“Just play with feeling - don’t worry about chords and scales and stuff.”
“Just play what you feel is right. Don’t worry about theory.”
and my personal favourite:
“…just play from the heart.”
These replies aptly qualify as completely useless advice and there is always a common thread that links the posters of these pointless gems, the two most prominent being:
They generally eschew/reject music theory for a number of reasons (actually it isn’t difficult it just requires a bit of study) and are therefore afraid of it in the same way that a baby chimpanzee is afraid of fire. Theory is consequently categorized in their minds as useless and scary. Even worse, they will occasionally take a firm stance that music theory is bad and actually knowing some will harm your creativity. This is the worst stance to take by far.
They never explain how to ‘play from the heart’ or ‘play with feeling’ or ‘just play’. This is the part that troubles me the most. When you challenge them on this and ask how this is achieved with clear applicable steps instead of some vague divine interventional guidance they are completely incapable of expressing it - instead they cite all kinds of examples of musicians with no training or musical knowledge and argue that if they could do it so could anybody else.
Of course, none of this is useful to the original poster who just wants some practical and usable advice to get his or her first solo off the ground. The thread subsequently degenerates into an ego-boosted pissing match and nobody ends up better off than before. Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door is subsequently abandoned and the original poster joins a punk band or takes up the triangle or bongo drums - worse, they may abandon music altogether and take up Performance Dance - “The World’s Most Pointless Artform”.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with telling someone to play with feeling or from the heart (by ear is actually something else which we will go into another time) - this is actually well-intentioned and pseudo noble counsel, but without any foundation, it’s far too high level advice to give to the beginner. The guitar has six strings with a range of 12 to 24 frets (36 for the Uli John’s of this world). There are 12 musical keys, dozens if not hundreds of scales with a myriad of applications - majors, minors, pentatonics, harmonics, melodics, modes, arpeggios, inversions, chords, chords on chords, chord progressions etc. etc. etc. all with different sounds- “Ok Mr Teacher - you told me to play with feeling - where do I start?” “Oh, just follow your heart.” “Umm…. how?”.
Ultimately the solo should be some kind of musical statement (unless you are some avant garde weirdo deliberately trying not to make a statement [which is also some kind of statement in itself]) and the theory and knowledge of chords and scales and stuff is only a tool to getting you to a point where you can build this statement. Theory in and of itself is not worth knowing if it isn’t applied somewhere down the line to making music and this unfortunately, is where a lot of the arguing lies. Knowing some theory is never bad and will never harm your creativity. Theory is a framework and a jumping-off point which one can use as a safe and trusted ground for constructing lines and also provides known boundaries from which one can veer should one feel the need to break the rules. Once you know at least a little bit of theory you have started on a road where you can start to transcend it and will soon get insights and glimpses into this intangible feeling/heart thing.
There are of course a great many unschooled players out there who are immensely talented. I’m an advocate of learning theory but I don’t count it as an absolute necessity. Training of the ear is as (if not more) important, and we will go into ways to do this in future. The part I have trouble with is the manner in which this information on how to play is transmitted. By saying “play from the heart” you’re not giving anything usable.
In the next part, I’ll answer ‘How do I solo over Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door’? - but in the meantime someone convincingly tell me how to ‘play from the heart’ with clear applicable steps and I’ll send them a packet of peanut M&Ms*.
* partially eaten.
PART 2
------
See Part 1 earlier for why the following advice does not qualify as useless. This excerpt was originally posted at: http://soft.com.sg/forum/showthread.php?t=1341
Recommend you read the whole thread to take in all the commentary and other viewpoints which all add up to be very rich and informative (well, most of them).
Question:
I don’t know how to use scales
can someone give me some pointers?
I am trying to just fill in some licks on a live version of Knockin On Heavens door by Eric Burdon , Rory Gallagher and David Lindley. I can do some licks but running out of ideas.
Thx enig
Answer:
“How to solo and improvise” - quite possibly the biggest single open-ended subject in music today.
Ok - I assume you don’t want to play like Allan Holdsworth (master improvisor) over your “Knockin’ on Heaven’s” door song and want something more like 70s era Clapton (noobs look it up - he has a nice version).
Okay - a bit of Googling revealed the following chord chart for Clapton version (sorry - i don’t know the Burdon version, but I assume the chords are the same) -
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/…s_door_crd.htm
So the chords are G D C Am, which means the key is G. (All chords in G would be G Am Bm C D Em F#Dim).
So, I make the assumption that you want to play a conventional solo with a matching scale in the same key and nothing too fancy at this juncture like outside notes, or changing modes on each chord etc.. which is a bit more advanced.
So, here’s my recommendation:
Learn the G Major scale. G A B C D E F#.
Start by playing notes from this scale along to the music. Try to break up your lines into phrases - in other words, don’t just play one continuous never-ending line (unless that’s the effect you’re going for). Clapton, for example plays short little bursts of notes, say, from 2 notes in a lick, up to between 6-12 notes. Now, the hardest part is this - you’ll notice that when you end your phrases, some of the notes either ‘work’ or they don’t although all the notes are harmonically valid within the key, at certain points, some of them sound better. The ones that sound better are the notes that correspond to the notes of the chord which is underneath at any time so:
G Major = G B D, so ending your lick on one of these notes (especially the 1st) will sound ’strong’.
D Major = D F# A, likewise
C Major = C E G, likewise
Am = A C E, likewise.
Now, how do you do this? Well one way is to memorise all the notes on the entire fretboard - good luck, see you in 20 years. The other way is to memorise chord shapes along the fretboard (easier, but still several years of effort). So, you need to eventually learn, for example, all the different shapes of G Major over the entire neck in thr long run.
If this sounds too daunting, for your current needs, i suggest picking a couple of key positions and concentrating on knowing the chord shapes in those. E.g.
5th position, know an Am Chord and some of the notes of C Major
12th Position, know a G Major and a D shape.
Of course, you can choose whatever/wherever. To simplify things slightly more, superimpose the pentatonic shapes over each chord as it passes, and attempting to gravitate your lick end notes to the chord tones, so G Major - play a G Major Pentatonic in the 12th position, and when the next bar comes and it changes to D, then finsih your lick on one of the D chord tones. etc.
This is one way of soloing and applying scales to chords. I can’t say I’m particularly good at this myself because I don’t practice it enough. Like anything you need to do it a lot, but then, therein lies the fun. I’ve been trying to get this right for the best part of 20 years and I’m still having fun.
Happy journey!
http://gitbuddy.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/worlds-most-useless-soloing-advice-part-2/
PART 1
-------
Quite often you will see newbie players posting questions on the online guitar forums such as:
“Help - how do i construct a solo?” or “How do I play a solo over Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door?”.
You’ll see some sensible suggestions from older players along the lines of “work out what the chords are in the progression, find a matching scale and maybe try to target some of the chord tones” or “associate a pentatonic with a particular chord and when that chord comes up, play that scale” and other stuff which while it may not be the most sophisticated approach in the world does state clear steps that the player can apply immediately to achieve some usable results. You might possibly also see some major overkill answer from some hardcore Jazzer that involves complex substitutions and polychordal harmony that use every scale and mode known to man which is years beyond the capability of the original poster, but the point of this post is that you will also see many, many more one-liner replies which will all be variations of:
“Just play by ear.”
“Just play with feeling - don’t worry about chords and scales and stuff.”
“Just play what you feel is right. Don’t worry about theory.”
and my personal favourite:
“…just play from the heart.”
These replies aptly qualify as completely useless advice and there is always a common thread that links the posters of these pointless gems, the two most prominent being:
They generally eschew/reject music theory for a number of reasons (actually it isn’t difficult it just requires a bit of study) and are therefore afraid of it in the same way that a baby chimpanzee is afraid of fire. Theory is consequently categorized in their minds as useless and scary. Even worse, they will occasionally take a firm stance that music theory is bad and actually knowing some will harm your creativity. This is the worst stance to take by far.
They never explain how to ‘play from the heart’ or ‘play with feeling’ or ‘just play’. This is the part that troubles me the most. When you challenge them on this and ask how this is achieved with clear applicable steps instead of some vague divine interventional guidance they are completely incapable of expressing it - instead they cite all kinds of examples of musicians with no training or musical knowledge and argue that if they could do it so could anybody else.
Of course, none of this is useful to the original poster who just wants some practical and usable advice to get his or her first solo off the ground. The thread subsequently degenerates into an ego-boosted pissing match and nobody ends up better off than before. Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door is subsequently abandoned and the original poster joins a punk band or takes up the triangle or bongo drums - worse, they may abandon music altogether and take up Performance Dance - “The World’s Most Pointless Artform”.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with telling someone to play with feeling or from the heart (by ear is actually something else which we will go into another time) - this is actually well-intentioned and pseudo noble counsel, but without any foundation, it’s far too high level advice to give to the beginner. The guitar has six strings with a range of 12 to 24 frets (36 for the Uli John’s of this world). There are 12 musical keys, dozens if not hundreds of scales with a myriad of applications - majors, minors, pentatonics, harmonics, melodics, modes, arpeggios, inversions, chords, chords on chords, chord progressions etc. etc. etc. all with different sounds- “Ok Mr Teacher - you told me to play with feeling - where do I start?” “Oh, just follow your heart.” “Umm…. how?”.
Ultimately the solo should be some kind of musical statement (unless you are some avant garde weirdo deliberately trying not to make a statement [which is also some kind of statement in itself]) and the theory and knowledge of chords and scales and stuff is only a tool to getting you to a point where you can build this statement. Theory in and of itself is not worth knowing if it isn’t applied somewhere down the line to making music and this unfortunately, is where a lot of the arguing lies. Knowing some theory is never bad and will never harm your creativity. Theory is a framework and a jumping-off point which one can use as a safe and trusted ground for constructing lines and also provides known boundaries from which one can veer should one feel the need to break the rules. Once you know at least a little bit of theory you have started on a road where you can start to transcend it and will soon get insights and glimpses into this intangible feeling/heart thing.
There are of course a great many unschooled players out there who are immensely talented. I’m an advocate of learning theory but I don’t count it as an absolute necessity. Training of the ear is as (if not more) important, and we will go into ways to do this in future. The part I have trouble with is the manner in which this information on how to play is transmitted. By saying “play from the heart” you’re not giving anything usable.
In the next part, I’ll answer ‘How do I solo over Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door’? - but in the meantime someone convincingly tell me how to ‘play from the heart’ with clear applicable steps and I’ll send them a packet of peanut M&Ms*.
* partially eaten.
PART 2
------
See Part 1 earlier for why the following advice does not qualify as useless. This excerpt was originally posted at: http://soft.com.sg/forum/showthread.php?t=1341
Recommend you read the whole thread to take in all the commentary and other viewpoints which all add up to be very rich and informative (well, most of them).
Question:
I don’t know how to use scales
can someone give me some pointers?
I am trying to just fill in some licks on a live version of Knockin On Heavens door by Eric Burdon , Rory Gallagher and David Lindley. I can do some licks but running out of ideas.
Thx enig
Answer:
“How to solo and improvise” - quite possibly the biggest single open-ended subject in music today.
Ok - I assume you don’t want to play like Allan Holdsworth (master improvisor) over your “Knockin’ on Heaven’s” door song and want something more like 70s era Clapton (noobs look it up - he has a nice version).
Okay - a bit of Googling revealed the following chord chart for Clapton version (sorry - i don’t know the Burdon version, but I assume the chords are the same) -
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/…s_door_crd.htm
So the chords are G D C Am, which means the key is G. (All chords in G would be G Am Bm C D Em F#Dim).
So, I make the assumption that you want to play a conventional solo with a matching scale in the same key and nothing too fancy at this juncture like outside notes, or changing modes on each chord etc.. which is a bit more advanced.
So, here’s my recommendation:
Learn the G Major scale. G A B C D E F#.
Start by playing notes from this scale along to the music. Try to break up your lines into phrases - in other words, don’t just play one continuous never-ending line (unless that’s the effect you’re going for). Clapton, for example plays short little bursts of notes, say, from 2 notes in a lick, up to between 6-12 notes. Now, the hardest part is this - you’ll notice that when you end your phrases, some of the notes either ‘work’ or they don’t although all the notes are harmonically valid within the key, at certain points, some of them sound better. The ones that sound better are the notes that correspond to the notes of the chord which is underneath at any time so:
G Major = G B D, so ending your lick on one of these notes (especially the 1st) will sound ’strong’.
D Major = D F# A, likewise
C Major = C E G, likewise
Am = A C E, likewise.
Now, how do you do this? Well one way is to memorise all the notes on the entire fretboard - good luck, see you in 20 years. The other way is to memorise chord shapes along the fretboard (easier, but still several years of effort). So, you need to eventually learn, for example, all the different shapes of G Major over the entire neck in thr long run.
If this sounds too daunting, for your current needs, i suggest picking a couple of key positions and concentrating on knowing the chord shapes in those. E.g.
5th position, know an Am Chord and some of the notes of C Major
12th Position, know a G Major and a D shape.
Of course, you can choose whatever/wherever. To simplify things slightly more, superimpose the pentatonic shapes over each chord as it passes, and attempting to gravitate your lick end notes to the chord tones, so G Major - play a G Major Pentatonic in the 12th position, and when the next bar comes and it changes to D, then finsih your lick on one of the D chord tones. etc.
This is one way of soloing and applying scales to chords. I can’t say I’m particularly good at this myself because I don’t practice it enough. Like anything you need to do it a lot, but then, therein lies the fun. I’ve been trying to get this right for the best part of 20 years and I’m still having fun.
Happy journey!
*GASP*
You... you... you... don't say!
Interesting... I guess this is why you blog - you manage to articulate quite well, unlike me. Good, informative post.
I'd like to emphasize your point on a musician's ear/hearing. In line with what Whitestrat mentioned regarding hearing/singing a melody over the chords and soloing with that... that's a simple simple way to lift off without having to worry/bother too much about the theory behind it all. But its a simple method that can become an exercise in repetitive sounding solos/songs - which is the bane of a couple of guitarists I know who incidentally, don't have a firm grasp on theory.
A full-fledged tutorial is off course going to lead to more mileage. But that doesn't mean that simple instructins do not have their place. Don't forget that not everyone wants to read through pages of instructions. There is no secret to getting down good solos. Not even a full-fledged tutorial can show you that.
But like I said, it does have its merits. I think even the most new newB appreciates that some form of theory has to be in place. It's how much theory that is in question. Some prefer lots of planning while others go with their feel which has been 'trained/seasoned' to do stuff such as solos without thinking in terms of theory but rather feel.
If you do original stuff, you will appreciate that the best licks come about by 'accident', by planning, and generallly just getting into the song, ie by feel. IOW, good original licks come about from a multitiude of ways and knowing theory and putting it first and foremost is one way but there are others.
Sure you can think of this scale and that mode but by the time you're done, the band may have left the studio.
But like I said, it does have its merits. I think even the most new newB appreciates that some form of theory has to be in place. It's how much theory that is in question. Some prefer lots of planning while others go with their feel which has been 'trained/seasoned' to do stuff such as solos without thinking in terms of theory but rather feel.
If you do original stuff, you will appreciate that the best licks come about by 'accident', by planning, and generallly just getting into the song, ie by feel. IOW, good original licks come about from a multitiude of ways and knowing theory and putting it first and foremost is one way but there are others.
Sure you can think of this scale and that mode but by the time you're done, the band may have left the studio.
vernplum
New member
100% agree with you - simple instructions do have their place and in an ideal world, simpler is obviously better.
I know my post is long and contains a lot to read, but if you look carefully, you'll see that I've nothing against instructions such as 'play by feel' so long as you tell someone how. With respect, and with the best and friendliest intentions, your reply doesn't explain it either.
The closest you get is to say 'getting into the song'. How do you explain to a newbie how to 'get into a song'? It's not something that is easy to convey do you agree?
I'm not being contentious for the sake of it - I want to spark the debate so people start coming out with the real answers as to how to go about it -I'm very interested to learn as well, though of course I have my own views on how to do this.
<edit> and btw, I don't agree at all that the best licks come about by accident. They might and they might not.
I know my post is long and contains a lot to read, but if you look carefully, you'll see that I've nothing against instructions such as 'play by feel' so long as you tell someone how. With respect, and with the best and friendliest intentions, your reply doesn't explain it either.
The closest you get is to say 'getting into the song'. How do you explain to a newbie how to 'get into a song'? It's not something that is easy to convey do you agree?
I'm not being contentious for the sake of it - I want to spark the debate so people start coming out with the real answers as to how to go about it -I'm very interested to learn as well, though of course I have my own views on how to do this.
<edit> and btw, I don't agree at all that the best licks come about by accident. They might and they might not.
100% agree with you - simple instructions do have their place and in an ideal world, simpler is obviously better.
I know my post is long and contains a lot to read, but if you look carefully, you'll see that I've nothing against instructions such as 'play by feel' so long as you tell someone how. With respect, and with the best and friendliest intentions, your reply doesn't explain it either.
The closest you get is to say 'getting into the song'. How do you explain to a newbie how to 'get into a song'? It's not something that is easy to convey do you agree?
I'm not being contentious for the sake of it - I want to spark the debate so people start coming out with the real answers as to how to go about it -I'm very interested to learn as well, though of course I have my own views on how to do this.
<edit> and btw, I don't agree at all that the best licks come about by accident. They might and they might not.
Nothing wrong with a long post. I think it's generally better than a short post. I've not said b4, one way or another, that long or short is better, I think it was clear that both have their merits. Most 'accidents' are bad, some are quite good, very few, but they are sometimes priceless. Again, I didn't say that the best licks come by 'accidents' as I did mention other areas were they may come from.
Getting into a song is subjective but so too is learning this scale and that scale and that mode to fit into a certain chord progression and then applying what you've learned.
Seriously, learning what scales or modes fit into a chord progression only tells someone what notes can be played but which notes, when, for how long, using what type of tone and picking technique also results in something quite subjective.
If you don't mind, do have a listen to Requiem 4 2 Lives aT http://www.myspace.com/rorkrgbspace and tell me how you would break this down into theory in terms of what to play = ie. scales or modes.
I really like what you've contributed and I'm actually looking forward to the Knocking on Heaven's Door thingy cos' I see lots of merits in doing something like that. But perhaps an abbreviated version so as not to contravene copyright issues to the point where it defeats the entire purpose.
Cheers
RoRK
Last edited:
Well, in the context of the thread... yes, wouldn't we want to learn what scales/modes to use against what chords? After all, it is a how-to-solo thread...
I think you're trying to split hairs here. It's a given that knowing scales is crucial to soloing. But do you really need to learn every scale and all the modes in all positions before actually soloing? Then there is the case of do you really need to think so much before you actually play something.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle - some theory for the tangibles and some intangibles such as feel etc. But it has to be said that after lots of experience the theory just 'disappears' into the background as it soon comes naturally, without much thought, while the feel factor is almost always in the foreground.
Well, at least that's my take. Where the 'truth' lies depends on each individual and I would assume, the musical genre that they play.
No lah, just thought to see where this discussion is headed to... I'm all for open discussions - people learn and its surprising how much one can discover when things are put into words.
You don't need to learn every scale before you can solo... you can go by feel (which to me, is basically still heavily reliant on ears) or you can go by ear...
Even if you have an excellent ear, or a vast knowledge of theory, you can fall short and become stuck in a rut no? If you don't expose your ear to different music, note phrases, note choices, note intervals and seek to actively incorporate new elements into your music... you get stuck in a rut. Same for theory... know so much but stop there, stop exploring, stop studying, and you're stuck in a rut.
Some have big ruts though... so they can stop... there's a limit to how much you can learn anyway....
but some have small ruts ... like ... they only know the 1st position minor pentatonic scale. That's it. The last 10 solos they played = based on that pattern. Of which, a bunch of them thinks its totally fine... the rest, yearn to break out.
So how? Ears or Study lor... right?
You don't need to learn every scale before you can solo... you can go by feel (which to me, is basically still heavily reliant on ears) or you can go by ear...
Even if you have an excellent ear, or a vast knowledge of theory, you can fall short and become stuck in a rut no? If you don't expose your ear to different music, note phrases, note choices, note intervals and seek to actively incorporate new elements into your music... you get stuck in a rut. Same for theory... know so much but stop there, stop exploring, stop studying, and you're stuck in a rut.
Some have big ruts though... so they can stop... there's a limit to how much you can learn anyway....
but some have small ruts ... like ... they only know the 1st position minor pentatonic scale. That's it. The last 10 solos they played = based on that pattern. Of which, a bunch of them thinks its totally fine... the rest, yearn to break out.
So how? Ears or Study lor... right?
whiteboy
New member
huh so i play
C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian, or C Locrian mode in C key
OR play
C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, or B Locrian mode in C key?
OR can i play both !?!?!?
sophronesis
New member
this. but only move on to these modes when you have tackled the ionian. actually after you tackled the ionian it is a good time to try "just whack".. then slowly learn the modes with reference to what you have from experimentation
Let's expand upon what you've just said - "just wack" is awfully concise don't you think?
When it comes to modes, for my usage, its purely for the sound... unless i'm delving into extend chords and stuff, then I find I really dig up modes only for the sounds.
Every mode has a signature sound - how distinct it is depends on how much you emphasize the different notes.
By "different notes" I mean this: Take the "Standard" mode to be Ionian/Aeolian, which are your regular major & minor scales... the other modes contain "different notes" - so you have your Lydian mode which is an Ionian / Major scale but with a #4. By emphasizing the sharpen 4th, you get to bring out the lydian flavour which is dreamy.
So that's how I think of modes...
When it comes to modes, for my usage, its purely for the sound... unless i'm delving into extend chords and stuff, then I find I really dig up modes only for the sounds.
Every mode has a signature sound - how distinct it is depends on how much you emphasize the different notes.
By "different notes" I mean this: Take the "Standard" mode to be Ionian/Aeolian, which are your regular major & minor scales... the other modes contain "different notes" - so you have your Lydian mode which is an Ionian / Major scale but with a #4. By emphasizing the sharpen 4th, you get to bring out the lydian flavour which is dreamy.
So that's how I think of modes...
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