Chord voicings, Chord Substitution, Modal interchange

[guitarman78]

I find that i am at a level where i seemed to be frozen and unable to progress. I've been practicing Chord Voicings and studying about Chord Substitutions for about a year.

I'm able to play a relatively decent song using different tetrachords with the last note either on the first or second string. Not to mention the normal basic positions.

But after sometime, these chords seemed so dull, and i want my playing to sound much more colourful.

I'm currently looking into different ways of doing 2-5-1 Substitution with Tritone Sub. Also looking at Pedal Points, Pivot Chords, polar chords and Modal interchange.

Anyone has any interesting progressions to share? Any interesting voicings for any chords? Maybe something that you have figured out on your own or from a Song?

 

[guitarman78]

to start the ball rolling .... I heard this on one of Lisa Ono's CDs ... it's a Bossanova track ... (slap me ... of course ... duh!)

It's called Piel Canela .... During the chorus, she played something interesting. the chord progression (from what i heard) is:

Dmaj9, Dmin(Maj7), G13, G9#11, Cmaj7, F#maj7#5, Am7.

Dmaj9 to Dmin(Maj7) is Basically a chord enhancement. A modal interchange using melodic minor i think.

G13 to G9#11 is the same .... beautifully done.

Cmaj7 to F#maj7#5 is a tritone sub ... but it's very akwardly done because there are no notes in common (melodic minor chord). But it sounds relevant ... weird huh .... maybe it's my ears that is weird .... i might be wrong.

 

[qfactor]

Why after the F#maj7#5, it goes to Am7?
What's the connection? 8O
Another choice (more diatonic compared to the F#maj7#5) could be from Cmaj7 to Bb7(whatever "strain" of extension of your choice!) to Am7.
Also, you din mention what KEY are we in? :wink:

QF

 

[guitarman78]

ok .... F# is the 6th note of A Maj scale ... also known as the Submediant. submediant note functions very closely with the Tonic ... like Am to Cmaj7. And Bm to Dmaj. In this case, the SubMediant is heavily coloured.

The catch is ... in Chord substitution .... besides connecting 2 chords by Chromatically or diatonically .... it can also be done interms of function. F#maj7#5 is really just a substitude for Cmaj7 ....

Oh yes ... Bb7 is a good choice ... but it would also be quite a typical progression to use ... linear descent sort of thing.

I'm reading a book by John novello ..... there is a section about Advanced harmony. He mentioned something about Similar Function, Disimilar notes. Like if you wanna transit from Dm7 to Em7 .... you can either play D#o7 or F#m7b5 and B7b9 in between.

So D#o7 is really a substitude for F#m7b5 and B7b9

And because it's diminished ..... there are four possibilitities.
D#o7 = F#m7b5 and B7b9
F#o7 = Amin7b5 and D7b9
Ao7 = Cmin7b5 and F7b9
Co7 = Ebminb5 and Ab7b9

It's a mind blowing truth! i wouldn't have found any links between these Chords with Em7 if it weren't for this. But the problem is i still dunno how to apply it .... and it's too much to think about if you wanna apply it right at the moment. If you manage to find out ... please share!! [/b]

 

[Cheez]

Like if you wanna transit from Dm7 to Em7 .... you can either play D#o7 or F#m7b5 and B7b9 in between.

This transition type of between Dm7 to Em7 is very commonly used - particalarly a transition from tonic to supertonic chords, be it I - ii, i - ii, i7 - ii7 etc. In theory, we can just apply it as it is. In real life situations (performing), I must say it is much easier as a keyboardist/pianist - we can "see" it as well as hear it. The alternative chords are pretty obvious when you play them and it is easily interchangeable. It almost appears like first, second and third inversions of the root diminished 7th with possible change of the root of the dim chord.

 

[guitarman78]

Cheez,
as a guitarist .... we can see inversions of Diminished chords pretty easily ... they are just the same shape on different positions of the fretboard. But as for the F#m7b5 and B7b9, Amin7b5 and D7b9, Cmin7b5 and F7b9, Ebminb5 and Ab7b9 .... we kind of need to break out of that comfort level and explore new fingerings that caters to the voicing of the preceeding chord.

For guitarists .... because the keys are not linear ... we need to find chord voicings that are closest in the group ... or suits the melody. But because it's not linear ... some chords are made easiler too ... especially dominant to tonic progressions.

I am still learning how to apply some of these technics ....
Cheez ..... care to share more?

 

[Cheez]

Yup. The fingerings for a particular chord on a guitar is basically the same - just moving up or down the frets, same for inversions of dim chords (I think it is 2 frets difference, right?). I guess it is easier for keyboardists and pianists when it comes to variations of the inversions of the dim chords - it still looks the same on the keyboard, with only slight variations. But as you say on a guitar, you'll have to do some serious changing of fingerings.

Sorry, I only tinkle with the guitar and me no expert in guitar. When I play the guitar, my brain is still thinking of the keyboard - so I change chords according to what my brain "sees" on the keyboard.

 

[ShredCow]

Very interesting discussion!!! Keep it going on! I've never been very interested in chordal theory but nonetheless, it is a thing of beauty when you hear Meet The Flintstones being played in a jazz chordal style with walking bass.

Keep it coming, keep it coming...

Btw, I'm starting to read up on tetrachords too...

 

[guitarman78]

Yup ... it's a very interesting subject ... just lacks popularity. Hope to hear more people sharing ..

Here's another progressions .... mostly tritone.

G7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 - Cmaj7

G7 - F#min7b5 - Fmin6 - Emin7 - Eb7 - Dmin7 - G7 - Cmaj7

 

[LEMONed_Z]

hi. this is a very interesting subject. but unfortunately abit too advanced for me as i'm just starting out learning theory recently. any good and comprehensive online theory articles and resources to recommend?

 

[guitarman78]

Ok ... actually i am an IT idiot ... especially when it comes to websites. For me .... i read books. Makes more sense to me .... you can try D-music ... just one level above Guitar Gallery (Parklane).

They sell mainly instructional books and DVDs for all musicians.

Another way is to simply type "Chord theory" on Yahoo Search page ...

 

[guitarman78]

Anybody into Melodic Minor scale?

I know you can actually impose an Ab melodic minor on a G7#5 in the key of C. That's about it. Ex: |Dm9 G7#5| Cmaj7 |

How do i apply the scale and it's respective chord tones to a song or substitude a chord?

What are the practice routines i should go through?

 

[Luke]

Guitarman,
Ab mel min over G7#5 would be enharmonically known as G altered.

If I were you, I would hamonise the entire Mel minor scale and check out all the modes of mel minor.

In fact, even the triads and 7th chord apreggios might be enough for a little while to get super comfortable improvising over changes.

Also, try to analyse a triad over the key of the song.

let me give you an example. Over a ii-V7alt-I in the key of C. Play a C# Maj ARP over the V chord. The C# arp would contain C# or Db,E# or F,G# or Ab. Now lets analyse those notes over a G7 Alt chord, say a G7b9. The C# or Db is the flat 5 or sharp 11 depending on how you prefer to look at it. The E# or F is the b7 and the G# or Ab is the b9 of the chord. Lydian Dominant with a b9 thrown in for a bit of tension. And when you resolve that bugger your audience will smile in relief. Its an awesome sound.

 

[guitarman78]

Hmmm ... to think about it ... C# is the tritone sub of G ... so it means i can still use a scale related to the tritone sub even when the Chord remains the same? And even if the G remains purely dominant, i can use the C# to suggest the flatten9 in the G? Haha ... ok interesting!

You can also use B7 in place of the G7 .... because B7 contains D# which gives the sound of G7#5 .... and B7 is Chromatic to Cmaj7 ... which enables you to resolve to the tonic. Wooo ... i love this discussion ....

Yup, i heard of the lydian dominant ... but thought it's used directly over the chord ... like G7b5 for G lydian dominant. Lydian dominant b9 ... never tried.
Thought of using Dorian b9 for G7b9 .. but your suggestion sounds cool.

How about mixolydian b13? Play a G7 and suggest an Eb? Or play a C mixolydianb13 over an F minor with a common Ab note?

 

[Luke]

How about mixolydian b13? Play a G7 and suggest an Eb? Or play a C mixolydianb13 over an F minor with a common Ab note?

Thats actually a mode from the melodic minor scale, commonly known as 'Mixo flat sixo".

Catchy huh? It works too.

Edited to add, I think you are on the right track. Superimposing various triads over the G7 altered will give you different sounds and different ways of creating tension.

 

[guitarman78]

i know all the modes of Melodic minor, but i dun really know how to apply all of them. Researching in progress. How aboout Chord Subs?

Are altered dominant chords the easiest to substitute since there are so many possibilities for tensions?

How abouot Maj7 chords? Like imposing a D root on Fmaj7 or F#m7 to get Dmin9 or Dmaj9?

Cadances? Like 2,5,1 or 6,1,2,5? any others?

Drop 2 voicings .... never really applied the principle on the guitar. Which note do i drop?

There is a phenomenon called "Dissimilar Function non-diatonic chords". Used to describe chords which are linked only by a note. Example you can substitute a G7#5 for a C#9 because they both contain D#. i wrote down all the possibilities and discovered that you can do it in all 12 keys using different tensions. Question is, when i improvise, do i refer to the root chord, or the substituted chord?

Hey wanna jam some day?

 

[Luke]

i know all the modes of Melodic minor, but i dun really know how to apply all of them. Researching in progress. How aboout Chord Subs?

Are altered dominant chords the easiest to substitute since there are so many possibilities for tensions?

There are a ton of chord subtitutions available. The Beatles were masters of subbing chords with pop sensibilities. But this is a topic, that I am not that familiar with.

How abouot Maj7 chords? Like imposing a D root on Fmaj7 or F#m7 to get Dmin9 or Dmaj9?

You can look at it that way or you could analyse it as Fmaj7/D, depending on the piece and how you want to approach improvising over it.

Cadances? Like 2,5,1 or 6,1,2,5? any others?

again a ton, depending on the piece. If you are studying classical pieces, depending on the period. Also, a cadence is the last 2 chords of the phrase, Authentic Cadence, V in root position going to the I in root position. Deceptive cadence, a V going to anything other than the I etc etc. Hence a 2,5,1 isn't really a cadence, but a 5,1 is.

Drop 2 voicings .... never really applied the principle on the guitar. Which note do i drop?

I think you mean playing shells. If thats the case, drop the root and 5th, and just play the 3rd and 7th. Or play the 3rd, 7th and whatver colour is in the chord, e.g b9, #11, #13, etc etc. I THINK thats what you mean.

There is a phenomenon called "Dissimilar Function non-diatonic chords". Used to describe chords which are linked only by a note. Example you can substitute a G7#5 for a C#9 because they both contain D#. i wrote down all the possibilities and discovered that you can do it in all 12 keys using different tensions. Question is, when i improvise, do i refer to the root chord, or the substituted chord?

You could look at it as also a non functioning secondary dominant. In the case you are talking about, I would go straight for chord scale. I would play C# altered, or C#dominant dimnished. But the best answer is do what sounds best to you.

Hey wanna jam some day?

It would be my pleasure but I should warn you I am far from a competent jazz player. I am rock and roll thru and thru.

 

[guitarman78]

Actually, drop 2 voicings are used when a particular chord is too far to reach on the guitar. Like a Dmaj9 ... since you can't possibly play the full voicing ... hence you need to reposition certain notes to get the playble shape on the guitar. I dunno how that's why i asked.

Anyway, i can jam anything ... doesn't have to be Jazz.

 

[Luke]

Actually, drop 2 voicings are used when a particular chord is too far to reach on the guitar. Like a Dmaj9 ... since you can't possibly play the full voicing ... hence you need to reposition certain notes to get the playble shape on the guitar. I dunno how that's why i asked.

Anyway, i can jam anything ... doesn't have to be Jazz.

I would think the same basic rules apply. I would leave the root to the bass player, get rid of the fifth and just play the 3rd, 7th and 9th.

The 3rd gives the chord its quality, the 7th as well to a slightly lesser extent but is still important if you want to emphasize its major tonality instead of a dominant one so those are the 2 most important tones in the chord. Then comes the 9th or 11th or 13th or whatever colour you wish.