Application of Inversions
- Thread starter Eleora
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Playing inversion mean you move your fingers to form a chord to other with minimum movement. Like C chord ->Em. just move the C on finger to B to form Em. You finger do not move too much. Normally within an octave.
Colour chord is easy apply when you know that the "position" of the chords on given scale. That why you see I-IV-ii-V. Telling you the chord progression and scale, you could "upgrade" the basic chord like. I->Imaj7 or I9, V->V7 or IV/V or V alt(commonly for jazz).
Colour chord is easy apply when you know that the "position" of the chords on given scale. That why you see I-IV-ii-V. Telling you the chord progression and scale, you could "upgrade" the basic chord like. I->Imaj7 or I9, V->V7 or IV/V or V alt(commonly for jazz).
bluepowder
New member
Im afraid your view of inversions is skewed...or I dont understand it....
here's the wiki
A chord's inversion describes the relationship of its bass to the other tones in the chord. For instance, a C major triad contains the tones C, E and G; its inversion is determined by which of these tones is used as the bottom note in the chord.
The term inversion is often used to categorically refer to the different possibilities, although it may also be restricted to only those chords where the bass note is not also the root of the chord (see root position below). In texts that make this restriction, the term position may be used instead to refer to all of the possibilities as a category.
In my understanding....an inversion of a chord would be the same chord with a note apart from the root note, being used as the bottom/bass note.
E--0--
B--1--
G--0--
D--2--
A--3--
E--3--
would be a common inversion of C major(G as the bottom note) = c/g, the other inversion would be c/e
As for adding colors, you can go by the guidelines in the previous post....
but randomly picking additions to the chords might not always work for you....you have to pick your additions based on the previous and next chords.....
In the case of your first progression...I would probably pick something like this
Cmaj7 Em7 Am7(or Am9) Fadd9 G13
(too lazy to type out the voicings)
Id suggest trying out simpler options before going into altered chords and tritone subs
Cheez
Moderator
Yes, bluepowder is right. Inversions are determined by the lowest note of a chord. Hence for the key of C major:
Root Position: C as the lowest note (as in C, E, G)
1st inversion: E as the lowest note (as in E, G, C)
2nd inversion: G as the lowest note (as in G, C, E)
3rd inversion: only in chords with 4 notes (eg G7 - which in this case, the lowest note will be F)
Which inversion to use in chord progression is determined by a few factors - mainly related to harmony. But Kongwee is also correct in that the simplest to understand rule of thumb is to move the bass as little as possible (exceptions exists of course). Example - if you want to progress F---|G---|Em---|Am---| etc, you can do this:
F---|G/F---|Em---|Am---|
Note the bass now moves less when progressing from F to Em (skipping the G). By the way, G/F is a 3rd inversion of G7. It also creates a "suspension" (the G/F) followed by a "resolution" (Em). I describe it this way - the chord F wants to move away to G, but the bass "resists" and pulls it back (by staying on F) - ie suspension (almost as if the bass "doesn't want to move up). The bass finally "pulls" the chord downwards successfully - down to Em (hence the suspension is "resolved"). That's the feeling it can create - and even stronger if you use the right voicings and arrangment. This is just one simple example.
As for "colours", that's what everybody said so far. But which to use (add 9 or 11 or 13 etc) is dependent also on the melody line and voicings - ie harmony applies. You don't just add for the sake of adding. You may end up with "clashes".
So...the chord progression you gave is basically OK. To know which chords to use (ie what you meant by "inversions" and "colours") is best left after we know the exact melody line. If there isn't a melody line and you are just experimenting, then try out different progressions. But I must say Am - F - C is probably not the best. There's also no timing (how long is each chord), so it's hard to know how the chords should be progressed.
Root Position: C as the lowest note (as in C, E, G)
1st inversion: E as the lowest note (as in E, G, C)
2nd inversion: G as the lowest note (as in G, C, E)
3rd inversion: only in chords with 4 notes (eg G7 - which in this case, the lowest note will be F)
Which inversion to use in chord progression is determined by a few factors - mainly related to harmony. But Kongwee is also correct in that the simplest to understand rule of thumb is to move the bass as little as possible (exceptions exists of course). Example - if you want to progress F---|G---|Em---|Am---| etc, you can do this:
F---|G/F---|Em---|Am---|
Note the bass now moves less when progressing from F to Em (skipping the G). By the way, G/F is a 3rd inversion of G7. It also creates a "suspension" (the G/F) followed by a "resolution" (Em). I describe it this way - the chord F wants to move away to G, but the bass "resists" and pulls it back (by staying on F) - ie suspension (almost as if the bass "doesn't want to move up). The bass finally "pulls" the chord downwards successfully - down to Em (hence the suspension is "resolved"). That's the feeling it can create - and even stronger if you use the right voicings and arrangment. This is just one simple example.
As for "colours", that's what everybody said so far. But which to use (add 9 or 11 or 13 etc) is dependent also on the melody line and voicings - ie harmony applies. You don't just add for the sake of adding. You may end up with "clashes".
So...the chord progression you gave is basically OK. To know which chords to use (ie what you meant by "inversions" and "colours") is best left after we know the exact melody line. If there isn't a melody line and you are just experimenting, then try out different progressions. But I must say Am - F - C is probably not the best. There's also no timing (how long is each chord), so it's hard to know how the chords should be progressed.
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Thank you for your replies.
But there are a few things which I still do not understand.
1) "Like C chord ->Em. just move the C on finger to B to form Em" : Do you mean move from CEG to BEG ?
2) Do Keyboardists always have to plan the inversions before playing the chords ? How to improve on this ?
3) How do you interpret
E--0--
B--1--
G--0--
D--2--
A--3--
E--3--
4) "when you know that the "position" of the chords on given scale" : How to determin this ?
Thank you.
But there are a few things which I still do not understand.
1) "Like C chord ->Em. just move the C on finger to B to form Em" : Do you mean move from CEG to BEG ?
2) Do Keyboardists always have to plan the inversions before playing the chords ? How to improve on this ?
3) How do you interpret
E--0--
B--1--
G--0--
D--2--
A--3--
E--3--
4) "when you know that the "position" of the chords on given scale" : How to determin this ?
Thank you.
bluepowder
New member
1) "Like C chord ->Em. just move the C on finger to B to form Em" : Do you mean move from CEG to BEG ?
Yes
3) How do you interpret
E--0--
B--1--
G--0--
D--2--
A--3--
E--3--
oops i assumed you are a guitar player...my bad...if you're not a guitar player...ignore this...its basically a C with a G in the bass
Yes
3) How do you interpret
E--0--
B--1--
G--0--
D--2--
A--3--
E--3--
oops i assumed you are a guitar player...my bad...if you're not a guitar player...ignore this...its basically a C with a G in the bass
I thought this is for keyboard.
Anyway, the rule of playing inversion is to "smooth up" the chords. Between two chord if there is a share note, play the same note and move the one that is not. Naturally, you will form different inversion along the chord progression. Not jumping up and down the keyboard very time and very tiring to the ear.
Anyway, the rule of playing inversion is to "smooth up" the chords. Between two chord if there is a share note, play the same note and move the one that is not. Naturally, you will form different inversion along the chord progression. Not jumping up and down the keyboard very time and very tiring to the ear.
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Cheez
Moderator
Eleora, some of the rules are based on harmony (theory). Theory's rules actually make a lot of sense to how the chord will make the piece sound.
Take for example C---|Em---|Am---| etc - ie your example.
Kongwee's example is to use the Em 2nd inversion (ie C,E,G - B,E,G - A,C,E). This makes the transition smooth. But it does something to the sound. You'll note that if played all in root positions, (ie C,E,G - E,G,B - A,C,E), it brings out the Am. It all depends on the piece of music/song. If I want to emphasize the Am for some reason (depending on what the melody is - ie using harmony, or depending on the lyrics), I will use Em in the root position. Sometimes using inversions (ie Em/B in this example) makes it sound worse, depending on the melody. How to know when to use? It's all in a part of theory we call harmony. Or people can go by "gut feeling", which may be the best way for you if you don't have a minimum of Grade 6 theory background.
My suggestion is to try the chord progressions for yourself using different inversions. Experiment and listen for yourself. Also, one good exercise is to play the descending bass line. That is:
(in key of C major) C---|G/B---|Am---|C/G---|F---|C/E---|Dm---|G---| (repeat)
Practice it in different keys, including the black keys.
Take for example C---|Em---|Am---| etc - ie your example.
Kongwee's example is to use the Em 2nd inversion (ie C,E,G - B,E,G - A,C,E). This makes the transition smooth. But it does something to the sound. You'll note that if played all in root positions, (ie C,E,G - E,G,B - A,C,E), it brings out the Am. It all depends on the piece of music/song. If I want to emphasize the Am for some reason (depending on what the melody is - ie using harmony, or depending on the lyrics), I will use Em in the root position. Sometimes using inversions (ie Em/B in this example) makes it sound worse, depending on the melody. How to know when to use? It's all in a part of theory we call harmony. Or people can go by "gut feeling", which may be the best way for you if you don't have a minimum of Grade 6 theory background.
My suggestion is to try the chord progressions for yourself using different inversions. Experiment and listen for yourself. Also, one good exercise is to play the descending bass line. That is:
(in key of C major) C---|G/B---|Am---|C/G---|F---|C/E---|Dm---|G---| (repeat)
Practice it in different keys, including the black keys.
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Cheez
Moderator
Descending bass line means the bass (lowest note) is descending in a progression of chords. From the above example - the bass will be playing C, B, A, G, F, E, D - ie descending. With each descending bass, the chord will play root position of different inversions accordingly. This will start to give you an idea on inversions.
More theory will always be better. I belong to the school of thought that believes theory is crucial to playing. Harmony starts from Grade 6. But don't rush yet. Play around with chords first.
More theory will always be better. I belong to the school of thought that believes theory is crucial to playing. Harmony starts from Grade 6. But don't rush yet. Play around with chords first.
Cheez
Moderator
Not true. Jazz follows rules all the time. There's also jazz theory. Jazz that doesn't follow rules is simply "random playing".
As a rule (pun not intended), rules can be broken only if you know the rules. There are rules to breaking rules!
Oh, and one common misconception re: theory and rules. They do not in anyway decrease "feel". If anything, if applied properply, they promote creativity and open door to many possibilities!
As a rule (pun not intended), rules can be broken only if you know the rules. There are rules to breaking rules!
Oh, and one common misconception re: theory and rules. They do not in anyway decrease "feel". If anything, if applied properply, they promote creativity and open door to many possibilities!
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pianomankris
New member
There are two uses of the term 'inversion' when it comes to playing on the keys.
There is the standard definition i.e. a note other than the root in the bass
Or the definition used often by jazzers - in jazz terms, 'inversion' is often used to describe the voicing of a chord in the RH, irrespective of bass note.
Putting inversions into usage is simple - read up on voice leading. I'm assuming when Kongwee mentioned 'smoothing up' he meant voice leading.
There is the standard definition i.e. a note other than the root in the bass
Or the definition used often by jazzers - in jazz terms, 'inversion' is often used to describe the voicing of a chord in the RH, irrespective of bass note.
Putting inversions into usage is simple - read up on voice leading. I'm assuming when Kongwee mentioned 'smoothing up' he meant voice leading.
pianomankris
New member
PS Kongwee: Cheez is very much correct in his comments RE jazz.
Yes, rules in any style can be broken, but the old adage 'you have to know the rules to break them' is certainly very true.
But breaking rules purely for the sake of it doesn't mean your music will, by default, have 'more feeling', just as opening your mouth and making noises doesn't mean you are expressing yourself in a 'gut feeling' manner because language has suppressed your ability to express yourself. Do you see the rules of language as inhibiting? Or are they the very things that have given you the freedom to say what you want to say?
What makes the 'rules of music' any different? Why aren't the rules of theory/harmony viewed as liberating, rather than suppressing?
And if by your definition 'gut feel' is important in jazz, then why isn't a 2 year old who thumps on the keys considered 'great jazz'? The 2 year old player will certainly be playing out of 'gut feeling', yes? And if you would say that this isn't 'jazz' as the kid doesn't understand that jazz has rules, then why is knowing some rules OK, but knowing others isn't?
As an aside, it should also be remembered that jazz is an extension of classical harmony.
Yes, rules in any style can be broken, but the old adage 'you have to know the rules to break them' is certainly very true.
But breaking rules purely for the sake of it doesn't mean your music will, by default, have 'more feeling', just as opening your mouth and making noises doesn't mean you are expressing yourself in a 'gut feeling' manner because language has suppressed your ability to express yourself. Do you see the rules of language as inhibiting? Or are they the very things that have given you the freedom to say what you want to say?
What makes the 'rules of music' any different? Why aren't the rules of theory/harmony viewed as liberating, rather than suppressing?
And if by your definition 'gut feel' is important in jazz, then why isn't a 2 year old who thumps on the keys considered 'great jazz'? The 2 year old player will certainly be playing out of 'gut feeling', yes? And if you would say that this isn't 'jazz' as the kid doesn't understand that jazz has rules, then why is knowing some rules OK, but knowing others isn't?
As an aside, it should also be remembered that jazz is an extension of classical harmony.
Dunno, I run through the recording of some mosaic artist. I saw the chords sheet and skeleton melody line. Super hard time reading the papers. A lot of coloured chords, they don't bother about the keys. They know what the song going to be like before hand. When they go for second and third take, the feel is alway different in every take. A lot of "extention" chords used, but the singer can sing in normal keys. A bit sharp or flat doesn't matter as long it blend. There can be 4 bar of alter chords, and sound very nice. In the recording recording studio, the jazz arranger direct you could sharp this and flat that. Those who train in pop and classical, know that is not"correct", but it is just sound nice. Maybe I should be in this way, the "feeling" is very important without he "gut". :mrgreen:
However, the bass player will normally follow the rulz.
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Cheez
Moderator
We use the chord charts all the time. Even though very few notes are indicated in them (for melody lines and to indicate certain beat/syncopation), they all still should be following rules. The choice of the voicings are heavily dependent on harmony. The improvisation may be different, but the rules still apply. It's just that application of theory is second nature and automatic. Those not trained in theory may not realise, but rules are still applied.
This apply not just for piano. Even when I play the guitar, harmony is automatically applied. I play every week with friends. The piece may sound nice and we play the exact same chords, but a simple application by changing certain voicings in harmony make just that difference that's very audible to everybody.
But we seem to be drifting into theory discussion again.
This apply not just for piano. Even when I play the guitar, harmony is automatically applied. I play every week with friends. The piece may sound nice and we play the exact same chords, but a simple application by changing certain voicings in harmony make just that difference that's very audible to everybody.
But we seem to be drifting into theory discussion again.
Hi,
Thank you for all your good advices.
Where can I find information on voice leading ?
Thank you.
What I suggest is earlier is enough. Take a fake sheet and start from there. Just play accompaniment when music playing. Just play staccato in every chord change if you are not very proficient. Your right hand will stay within an octave. Normally I will pick C to C. It is alright to hit 4 or 5 semi tone up or down if the chord progression is gradually go that way. Almost of the time you will go downward. You could do it in every key too even in the range from C to C. That help to start a chord with different inversion. Like Abmin, I will start a second or third inversion depending on mood.
To be honest, the first I play I keep doing root in chords. Until, I change instructor, she say I should not do that.
If you do solo, the right hand will have different training. However, I alway feel it is good to do accompaniment before doing solo.
pianomankris
New member
OK here's a very simple way of using inversions (bass inversions, I mean):
Use them to create a smooth transition from chord to chord by having the least amount of movement in the bass line when changing chord.
For example, C - F, the bass would normally go C - F. But if you want the smoothest sounding change, then make the bassline play C E then F.
The E in the bass is an inversion of the C chord, and is the closest note to the F (only a semitone away), so the transition will be smoother.
Kongwee - I don't understand most of your post due to your grammar (no offence). However, i'd say there is no such thing as 'incorrect' - if you know the rules, that is. It's more about intention. Prokofieff and Ravel both intentionally wrote 'wrong' notes in ther music. But they meant to, and they knew they were doing so.
Use them to create a smooth transition from chord to chord by having the least amount of movement in the bass line when changing chord.
For example, C - F, the bass would normally go C - F. But if you want the smoothest sounding change, then make the bassline play C E then F.
The E in the bass is an inversion of the C chord, and is the closest note to the F (only a semitone away), so the transition will be smoother.
Kongwee - I don't understand most of your post due to your grammar (no offence). However, i'd say there is no such thing as 'incorrect' - if you know the rules, that is. It's more about intention. Prokofieff and Ravel both intentionally wrote 'wrong' notes in ther music. But they meant to, and they knew they were doing so.
sorry my bad!
I never pass English!
But I promise not to be ris low.
I have an friend playing wrong note on piano. He can't get it off when finishing recording. A jazz arranger who in charge of the recording. He say it ok. The wrong note is sixth note of that chord. My friend play again in other studio. It cause a distrub to my friend who play pop and classical. But the jazz arranger take it easy.
Other genre is bossa. Put sharp and flat of 9,11,13 all over place.
I never pass English!
But I promise not to be ris low.
I have an friend playing wrong note on piano. He can't get it off when finishing recording. A jazz arranger who in charge of the recording. He say it ok. The wrong note is sixth note of that chord. My friend play again in other studio. It cause a distrub to my friend who play pop and classical. But the jazz arranger take it easy.
Other genre is bossa. Put sharp and flat of 9,11,13 all over place.
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