an epiphone question

[Impromptu]

hi guys, heard from fellow softies that epiphone are made out of low grade wood and the plus top on an les paul is just a thin sheet of veneer. Just want to verify that fact. My les paul standard is a plus top and i scratch my head wondering why it looks like real flamed maple to me coz of the wavy lines and 3d effects. So i am unsure if mines a real flamed maple anot? Btw, mines a china epi. Pls enlighten me.

that's the reason why you should get plain top guitar So you worry less about how it look and concentrate more on playing it

 

[teleplayer]

Stop finding fault with your guitar lah... epiphone is good enough for a beginner's guitar..............

 

[bryan1234]

that's the reason why you should get plain top guitar So you worry less about how it look and concentrate more on playing it

honestly, my plus top looks just like a real maple flamed top on a gibson. Some ppl who dont know also assume its real flamed maple so how it looks dosent worry me its only the material used that bothers me. Oh, come on a veneer top guitar? Lol now im coming to terms with it

 

[dudelove]

Your Epi should be a maple top on a mahogany body. This COULD mean a plain maple top with a flamed maple veneer. But definately it will be a solid maple top with a real mahogany body and neck.

i believe he answered ur question.

 

[Whitestrat]

what i mean is
a low quality wood is from entirely different wood ... wood that is really suck ...

But what constitutes as low and high grade in terms of breed? Wood is wood. They have different uses. Balsa wood should not be used for guitar necks right? Neither should basswood. Because they're soft. But there's nothing wrong with a basswood body right? As long as the right rigidity of wood is used for the right purposes, who's the say if it's good or bad quality? That's assuming we're not talking about termite ridden or rotten woods. Fungal woods are another matter, since Spalted Maple is a result of fungal growth. I'm referring to good healthy lumber stock.

 

[eclipze]

But what constitutes as low and high grade in terms of breed? Wood is wood. They have different uses. Balsa wood should not be used for guitar necks right? Neither should basswood. Because they're soft. But there's nothing wrong with a basswood body right? As long as the right rigidity of wood is used for the right purposes, who's the say if it's good or bad quality? That's assuming we're not talking about termite ridden or rotten woods. Fungal woods are another matter, since Spalted Maple is a result of fungal growth. I'm referring to good healthy lumber stock.

well u don't get my point...im not refering to a wood such as basswood as a low grade wood..

what i mean a low quality wood is a wood that has a bad fiber... big and awful fiber, rough, and i can't be use eventhough u sand it all the time, the fibers is still rough and had a really big pore... so this wood cant be use as a body or neck etc

i'll attach a picture of my raw chunk wood for example
"But what constitutes as low and high grade in terms of breed? Wood is wood"
well.. look at the pic ... u can see the differences in color right? the side border has light brown color ... and the center has dark brown color

if i ask u... which one will u choose to make a neck/body? the center or the side border? i prefer choose the center, the dark one... because its harder, has smoother fibers, stronger..its the core of the wood... the dark one is hi grade.. and the light brown is low grade..
but u can still use the light brown wood too... but its not as good as the dark one... it has the same sound characteristic as the dark one, but there are differences between those two
if there is a question why there is a differences in color?? one is light brown and the other is dark brown?? the dark one is the core... when the wood grow.. it grow taller and bigger, and the core is still remain in the center and getting bigger too... u can see the diameter of the tree, bigger the diameter the wood u can tell the tree's age right.. the light colored wood (side border) is the tree's outer skin its softer and not as strong as the core..
my wood here has about 50 cm width 100-120 cm legth.. 4,7 cm thick
if u see a small diameter wood.. the wood is considered a young wood ... which has a small sized dark colored in the center of the wood body..


u can still use a basswood as a neck..believe me.. make it 3pc neck basswood with a mahogany or rosewood or anything on the center or vice versa

what i said low quality is the wood that is not proper/decent to make a guitar
although it has a very old age, it cant grow bigger... the wood, the fiber, the pore, and the rigidity is below average ...& u can tell by the looks
i dont have the pics though... coz i dont buy the wood that is not decent to make a guitar..

sorry if there are words that insulting u

 

[Whitestrat]

well.. look at the pic ... u can see the differences in color right? the side border has light brown color ... and the center has dark brown color

if i ask u... which one will u choose to make a neck/body? the center or the side border? i prefer choose the center, the dark one... because its harder, has smoother fibers, stronger..its the core of the wood... the dark one is hi grade.. and the light brown is low grade..
but u can still use the light brown wood too... but its not as good as the dark one... it has the same sound characteristic as the dark one, but there are differences between those two
if there is a question why there is a differences in color?? one is light brown and the other is dark brown?? the dark one is the core... when the wood grow.. it grow taller and bigger, and the core is still remain in the center and getting bigger too... u can see the diameter of the tree, bigger the diameter the wood u can tell the tree's age right.. the light colored wood (side border) is the tree's outer skin its softer and not as strong as the core..
my wood here has about 50 cm width 100-120 cm legth.. 4,7 cm thick
if u see a small diameter wood.. the wood is considered a young wood ... which has a small sized dark colored in the center of the wood body..

Ahh. I see what you mean... So, within the same log there are varying differences in quality of wood? Hmm... Thats interesting... Thanks for the heads up on this. always good to learn something new.

Thing is, how can we tell my looking at a neck for example, and tell where this cut was from? Any way?

That dark line there... Is that a mineral streak?

Don't worry about insulting me... My skin very thick... otherwise cannot learn. Hahahaha...

 

[eclipze]

thats correct

when the wood reaching below 12% water content (now the wood is dry, people often get this wood to the oven to fasten the wood to dry).. te core its going to crack little starting from the core edge (don't worry thats a common things)... and from this point u can start processing the wood.. because the wood is stop moving from warp, bend and shrink, it's stabilizing ..

the dark line there its a glue.. when te core crack at the bottom up to +-20 cm to the center log... i manage to cut it & split in to 2 log.. and then unite it again by glue (many top brand guitar use this method, Gibson as an example).

the neck.. if u want to examine where the cut from, the core or the side one..
its difficult to examine if its already become a neck..
.. u have too look at the raw chunk first.. commonly ppl cut it into +-10cm width; 70 cm legth ; 8 cm thick , u can tell from the color of the wood.. i take a mahogany as an example ... in this size 10*70*8cm u could see the wood color.. mahogany is often found with its red colored, the core has dark brown red (maroon) color... and the side has light red color (the wood outer skin, its very fragile due to the hardness is below average)..

from this point u can only tell where its come from by testing the hardness of the wood... here is the place u can examine..
(*)on the neck heel where the bolt's placed (if u had bolt on guitar) in this part people don't coating it with lacquer so its still had its natural surface(this part should not be coating with any lacquer, it will ruin/disrupt the sustain)... feel the hardness using ur nails, scratch it in line with ur nails.. if its hard and barely leaves a scar (a little scar) ... then congrats ur neck is the core of the wood

(*) if ur guitar is a set neck (glued in neck), u can examine the part below ur neck PickUp. that is the neck tenon location.. this is the main part where the neck join to the body (what will happened if u use the border side of the wood?) , this part also most of the People didn't coating it with paint and lacquer (but there is also some people paint & coating it after the neck has been glued to the body) its same u can test it by scratching in line with ur finger nails... if its hard and u can barely see the scar of ur nails has been made (its a little scar)... congrats its hard and its definitely the wood core (if there is paint and coating in this part, u have to remove it first, sand it or use other tools to remove a lil' part of it)

when i'm choosing the wood to make my guitar... i always use this method... i scrath i t using my finger nails to tell this wood is the core or not .. the wood is good or not..
and i knock it. and hear its sound

 

[dudelove]

wow dude its really great having ppl like you sharing you knowledge. i'm learning a lot.

 

[eclipze]

thanks dude
glad i can share my knowledge



oh yeah...i forgot to tell... a neck which its a 1 pc neck and 3 pc neck... which one is stronger???
the 3pc neck is stronger than 1 pc neck, because all the pieces of wood support each other to form a new neck which its more stabilized than 1pc neck ... the price of 3 pc neck? i dunno... is it more expensive or not :mrgreen:

 

[lifele55]

thanks dude
glad i can share my knowledge



oh yeah...i forgot to tell... a neck which its a 1 pc neck and 3 pc neck... which one is stronger???
the 3pc neck is stronger than 1 pc neck, because all the pieces of wood support each other to form a new neck which its more stabilized than 1pc neck ... the price of 3 pc neck? i dunno... is it more expensive or not :mrgreen:

Wow, then so much for people going on and on about having 1 piece necks.

Great info eclipze, learning good stuff.

 

[Whitestrat]

oh yeah...i forgot to tell... a neck which its a 1 pc neck and 3 pc neck... which one is stronger???
the 3pc neck is stronger than 1 pc neck, because all the pieces of wood support each other to form a new neck which its more stabilized than 1pc neck ... the price of 3 pc neck? i dunno... is it more expensive or not :mrgreen:

Yeah... Good to know the woodworking stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Which is stronger? Probably the multi-ply neck. No doubt. But that's not what many experienced guitarists would want to know. What they'd want to know is, which construction promotes resonance? A Multi-ply neck made up of different densities and grain direction of woods. Meaning the standing wave of the neck would be more complex than a 1 piece neck which COULD hamper resonance...

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Whitestrat]

mahogany is often found with its red colored, the core has dark brown red (maroon) color... and the side has light red color (the wood outer skin, its very fragile due to the hardness is below average)..

This is damn useful info...

from this point u can only tell where its come from by testing the hardness of the wood... here is the place u can examine..
(*)on the neck heel where the bolt's placed (if u had bolt on guitar) in this part people don't coating it with lacquer so its still had its natural surface(this part should not be coating with any lacquer, it will ruin/disrupt the sustain)... feel the hardness using ur nails, scratch it in line with ur nails.. if its hard and barely leaves a scar (a little scar) ... then congrats ur neck is the core of the wood

Again damn useful... But this also means technically that ANY part of the neck that's not finished can be tested in this way, no? Grain doesn't differ from core or edge? Or does it?

Also, can you share any info on the colours of Rosewood?

 

[the_insomniac]

sorry guys but the flame top on epi LPs are veneers, confirmed. kinda like the "photoflame" tops of those 1980s superstrats.. There's no way gibson/epiphone can include solid carved maple caps on their LPs at that sort of price.

and a lot of their LPs are made of whatever wood is lying around at the moment --- typically mahogany + alder cap + flame veneer. I opened up my 1996 korean epi LP -- definitely NOT a maple cap, and the flame was a thin veneer. But the body was a good chunk of mahogany though.

But it really doesn't matter, cos if it sounds good, it sounds good. My old Epi was a great guitar at a great price..

on a related note, there's some discussion here on whether Epis use junk wood.. but some ppl on that thread think it was a fake Epi.. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=515891

 

[Whitestrat]

sorry guys but the flame top on epi LPs are veneers, confirmed. kinda like the "photoflame" tops of those 1980s superstrats.. There's no way gibson/epiphone can include solid carved maple caps on their LPs at that sort of price.

Photoflames are printed on the wood. Veneers are real maple pieces cut very thinly to laminate the top. 2 very different things.

Confirmed? Even the plus top is a veneer only and no plain maple cap underneath?

 

[matthewchj]

Confirmed? Even the plus top is a veneer only and no plain maple cap underneath?

Yuppsh. AFAIK, all Epi's use a veneer. The cap's normally alder or something, with a flame veneer over it. The body's supposedly made of mahogany, although it's sometimes made out of other woods. Only Epi Elitists have a proper bookmatched maple cap over a 2 piece african mahogany back. Even then, the Elitist plus tops also use veneers for the flame.

EDIT: Just to add, my epi LP custom's neck isn't mahogany either. The neck tenon and headstock are mahogany, but the rest of the neck appears to be maple.

 

[eclipze]

This is damn useful info...



Again damn useful... But this also means technically that ANY part of the neck that's not finished can be tested in this way, no? Grain doesn't differ from core or edge? Or does it?

Also, can you share any info on the colours of Rosewood?

hi white.. yes... any part of the neck which is not finished can be tested by this method

grain DOES differ from Core and side edge... grains in the core are tighter, more dense, harder, and smoother than the grains from the Edge side...

the rosewood colors are brown black nice tight grain , the edge has light brown color.. with a beautiful grain tone, this wood is an oily type wood... when u only polish it, it'll get very very shiny like u finish it with lacquer.. this wood is very very hard... it takes a long time when i cut this wood in my bandsaw ill attach the photo of east indian rosewood
mine is very special though ... hehehe i got it when i hunt for wood in small village

its age is about 40-50 years wooh... real bad ass

 

[Whitestrat]

the rosewood colors are brown black nice tight grain , the edge has light brown color.. with a beautiful grain tone, this wood is an oily type wood... when u only polish it, it'll get very very shiny like u finish it with lacquer.. this wood is very very hard... it takes a long time when i cut this wood in my bandsaw ill attach the photo of east indian rosewood
mine is very special though ... hehehe i got it when i hunt for wood in small village

its age is about 40-50 years wooh... real bad ass

That's a nice block. So does that mean that when I have 2 indian rosewood fretboards, but one is much darker than the other, that the darker one is core and the lighter one is nearer to the edge? For fretboards, would that matter? in terms of tone?

 

[eclipze]

Yuppsh. AFAIK, all Epi's use a veneer. The cap's normally alder or something, with a flame veneer over it. The body's supposedly made of mahogany, although it's sometimes made out of other woods. Only Epi Elitists have a proper bookmatched maple cap over a 2 piece african mahogany back. Even then, the Elitist plus tops also use veneers for the flame.

EDIT: Just to add, my epi LP custom's neck isn't mahogany either. The neck tenon and headstock are mahogany, but the rest of the neck appears to be maple.

the neck tenon and headstock are mahogany, but the rest is maple?? i cant imagine how did the factory make that thing..
do u have a pic of it? can i see it?

 

[Whitestrat]

EDIT: Just to add, my epi LP custom's neck isn't mahogany either. The neck tenon and headstock are mahogany, but the rest of the neck appears to be maple.

You've stripped the paint to check?