Advice needed for soundcard, amp, speakers

[di0nysus]

Dear musicians,

My sound/recording set up is guitar/vox to mics, to yamha MG10/2 mixer, to creative live, keyboard controller right into the creative live. mixed using cakewalk 8. out to kenwood minicombo system.

you can see its a dinosaur, some parts >5 yrs, even 10yrs.

I'd like to get a new sound card, creative 0404 seems affordable, do they contain many sound banks? And and to replace the kenwood, is an amp necessary? + speakers..? Am thinking of amp for hifi, and speakers for hi fi also. No need high-end monitor speakers, as I'll do more listening and recording.

Feel free to correct any of my jargons and give suggestions. total budget for rehaul, ~$1000.

What i hope to achieve is
1)clean multi channel (4 channels i guess is enough) recording.
2)make all my mp3s sound really good. (i hardly listen to CDs anymore...
3) listen to radio...this could be a tricky part. as need a receiver.
4) and to have more souns in the sound card to play with...creative live really limited

Many thanks for any help!
Jon

 

[Cheez]

With the Yamaha MG10/2, do you still need 4 channels on the soundcard? If not, another option for a soundcard is the Echo MiaMidi - clean, good, stable, very low latency, low price. You may also want to look at the Audiophile 24/96 as another option.

Most pro audio cards do not come with sound banks and are not designed to do that (exception of some like Creamware etc with built-in DSP; even then, I believe they use plug-ins). I don't think Emu 0404 does either.

Maybe it would be easier to tell us what you want from your setup - listed by priority. Also give us the specs of your PC.

 

[di0nysus]

Thanks for replying

The MG10/2 has only 'one output' into the PC, so if i record vox/guitar at the same time, they're 'merged' together in one track. i think its main purpose is to get power to the mics into the PC.

Piorities include:
1) clean sound as i mentioned.
2) recording of live guitar/vox and some keyboard stuff, sound cards don't contain sound banks? Then what are those GM and XG that I see? they sound bad on the creative live... just wish to have better sounding sounds..
3) have v gd sound from my mp3s, as i don't listen much to CDs anymore.
4) radio tuner

pardon my ignorance, if soundcards dun have sound banks, then how do I get 'em? getting a keybaord with in-built or get separate modules?

My PC setup is P3 2.6C 512ram 50G hdd.

thanks for any help

 

[iansoh]

get software for sound banks.

anyway, what u want is to be able to record each channel simultaneously, yet on to separate tracks is it? then i tink what u need is the motu 828 mk2. and u might not need your mixer any more after that.

 

[Cheez]

If all you want to record is a few voices and guitar, MOTU 828 may be an overkill. M-audio's Audiophile 2496 or 192, or Echo's Miamidi or Gina 3G are all good options, unless you want lots of audios ins and outs.

Don't forget - the PC is just as important a factor in recording as your soundcard. You'll have to budget that in. For $1000, you'll have to be picky. You will need at 2 hard drives in your PC (one for running Windows and appplications, one dedicated for audio recording) - at 7200rpm. SATA will be preferable but IDE is OK. You may want to consider expanding your RAM by adding another 256 or 512 MB. But if you're tight on budget, see how far your 512MB can stretch before adding more RAM. One thing to clarify about your setup - P3 does not have 2.6GHz. Perhaps you meant P4.

For sounds, as iansoh suggested, get softsynths. For $1000 and good sounds - it is very challenging. I will not suggest anything too elaborate - you'll probably want something that plays most things - ie a GM sound bank. Although not the best, but the Edirol HQ-GM2 Hyper SoundCanvas (http://www.edirol.com/products/info/hyperCanvas.html) should be sufficient for your needs. It exists as a VSTi or DXi plug-in, so make sure you have a sequencer software. It cost less than 200USD. That's about the cheapest you can go for an all-rounder soundbank. Otherwise you may want to consider getting an external module like the Roland JV1010 - not sure if you can still get hold of one and I'm not sure of the current price.

Another factor you want to make sure is good mics - since clean sound is your priority. Not my area - others can contribute here.

I suggest forgetting about the radio tuner. Just get a cheapo radio. Or you can always listen to radio via internet. But make sure that your Windows for recording is DEDICATED ONLY TO RECORDING. You can do that by dual booting your Windows - one for your daily usage like Microsoft Office and Internet, one just for recording.

 

[soft]

soundcard
if you are not recording live band, you can get something that has 2 or 4 inputs. something that has a mic pre-amp built in so that you do not have to go through your MG10/2. (ie. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FirewireSolo )

monitoring
a decent monitor speaker + amp would cost you $1k++. if you are doing 'in the same room' recording, my take would be to get a nice headphone (ie.AKG240). You cant have the speakers on while you are recording with a mic at the same time.

midi sound
get a sound module. the jv1080 would be a great start.

computer
i think your computer is ok. wait till you get use to the new soundcard, see what is required of the computer then upgrade.

workflow
mic , guitar, keyboard/sound module into soundcard. monitor with headphone.

creative live, M-Audio FireWire Solo, cd player, radio tuner into MG10/2.

MG10/2 out to hi-fi.


:wink:

 

[veganbleu]

The setup really depends on the genre of music you're trying to make. But first you should try to update the creative drivers to use the kxdrivers. That'll really help.

1)clean multi channel (4 channels i guess is enough) recording.
The firewire solo like soft suggested is an ok buy same with the m-audio firewire audiophile. You could also go with the emu0404. Unless you really need 4 inputs, 2 is enough, looking at the budget.

2)make all my mp3s sound really good. (i hardly listen to CDs anymore...
Basically it's all about the encoding process, and less of the system.

3) listen to radio...this could be a tricky part. as need a receiver.
I wouldn't put a radio tuner or tv tuner in a system meant for audio even if they say it's RF shielded.

4) and to have more souns in the sound card to play with...creative live really limited
There are free soundfonts out there, you could get those and load them up isntead. Additionally you should hunt down the free VSTs from kvr-vst.com. Generally they're more suited for electronic music.

As you get further down the path, you'll definitely find yourself expanding on the initial purchases. One of the things that'll stay more constant than most will be the listening environment. I'd probably dump the kenwoods, and get a nice closed back headphones. The 240s are very nice and comfy, and they really sound amazing, but they're semi open and can leak sound. The k271 is fully closed and are nice and detailed. If you can't score them. the sony mdrv6 are also quite good. You'll need these if you want to track anything while recording.

 

[di0nysus]

Thanks all for replying...

am a little overwhelmed by all the terms.

I only know what I own so far and how to use 'em, an little more.

I've a few questions that I'm still googling for answers and having difficulty finding. I've search tutorials for sound recording, the basics are 'too easy' , while tutorials like on kxraudio.com are too cheem....

1) Sound banks. General Midi is a sound bank right? it contains 128patches, right? XG is another sound bank, another 128 patches..right?
The sound comes from the soundcard, or does the software plays a bigger role? If i get a better soundcard, does it mean I get to choose more instruments? like a better sounding piano sound?
I've seen terms like plug-ins, effects, and download soundbanks with .fxb, have no idea how to use/what they are!

2) getting new speakers, vegan mentioned 240s, and k271, what brands are they and where can i test them? Are they actives? Will a medium hi-fi grade amp+speakers do? like NAD+missions.?

3)mixer and soundcard. if i get a 2 or 4 channel soundcard, there's no point using the mixer anymore right?...as the mixer has no direct out..

4)software.. i installed cubase LE, quite different from cakewalk8, and i can't even load a midi file after 30mins! and they only allow 20 mp3-encodes, then will have to pay...grrrrrr

Sorry for the 100 questions.
Will be busy for my exams. Hope some of ya can spend some time sharing, then maybe threat u guys drinks etc.hehe

cheers
Jon

 

[veganbleu]

Teh tarik threats are good


In the simplest sense, GM/XG etc, are just standards that specify the kind of sound expected at lets say program 1. So if someone were to pass you a composition with different layers, you'll be able to reproduce it, without worrying about the instruments on each midi track. But really it's only for people looking to be able to just pass midi files with less problems, and is no indication of the quality of sounds. So if anyone tries to sell GM etc as a big plus, it isn't.

A computer sequencer can load virtual instruments or effects. They're usually referred to as plug ins. These will reside on a track or a bus in the software. I think maybe cakewalk 8 can't do this which is why you're not familiar. If you buy a copy of the computer music magazine, you'll get a freeware sequencer and plug ins. Try using those instead to get used to it all, though cubase LE should've been enough.

The k240s and k271s are studio headphones, not speaker monitors. Because you said you're doing mike recordings, headphones are the only way to go.

 

[Cheez]

I'll answer your first question and leave the rest to the others.

1) Sound banks. General Midi is a sound bank right? it contains 128patches, right? XG is another sound bank, another 128 patches..right?

General Midi (GM) is a standard sound bank. 128 patches. It was developed to standardise soundbanks - if you have a midi file on GM, it will play the exact same instruments on all GM compatible hardware.

XG is something developed by Yamaha and is basically an extension of GM - so many more patches than 128. Of course, there's GS (just to confuse you) developed by Roland - also an extension of GM that came out before XG.

The idea of all these standards is that if a midi file is programmed in one of those formats, it should sound similar (in terms of instruments) in any hardware supporting the same format. So it is pretty obvious that GM is the most basic and should be supported by most hardware that plays midi. Conversely, not all midi playback hardware can play XG or GS - depending whether they are built for it. Therefore, GM is the safest format. But do note that midi files in any of these formats will sound different on different midi playback hardware because of differing sound quality.

The sound comes from the soundcard, or does the software plays a bigger role? If i get a better soundcard, does it mean I get to choose more instruments? like a better sounding piano sound?

I've seen terms like plug-ins, effects, and download soundbanks with .fxb, have no idea how to use/what they are!

Soundcards for games usually comes with sound banks in them - usually GM (at least). So they can play all those midi files from your games/ programs. The quality of the sound will depend on the soundcard.

Pro soundcards usually do not come with sound banks. But it is not a problem - since we can always turn to software sound sources instead of hardware. In this case, we use either VST plug-ins (a software plug-in that require a sequencer that supports VST) or standalone softsynths which are handier. But realise that these plug-ins comes with very specific sounds - analog, orchestral, synths, world etc. We use them to expand our sound libraries. If you want to play GM sounds, you will need one that does GM only (eg Edirol HQ-GM2). Otherwise you will still not be able to playback GM midi files.

Plug-ins in VST formats does not limit itself to sounds. You can have a VST effects plug-in - thereby adding effects to your music.

fxb is just a patch file associated with VST plug-ins. Don't worry about that now.

Getting a "better soundcard" does not give you a choice of more instruments. Either it has built-in sounds, or does not. Creative soundcards, however, lets you load in soundfonts (one of the many formats of sounds). In this case, you can load in a better sounding piano, for example, in soundfont format directly using your soundcard. However, good sounding samples/ sounds are usually not free. Note also that although Emu is associated with Creative, the Emu 0404 does not load soundfonts.

Alternative is going hardware - external modules.

But if your priority is recording, you may want to focus just on that.

 

[soft]

hi di0nysus

1. what keyboard are you using now? there are lots of cool stuff out there for midi musicians nowadays but i feel it is still good to have at least 1 basic synth, 61 keys, decent sound and definitely with midi capability.

2. those headphones are from AKG. www.akg.com

3. the mixer can be used to connect your computer + sound card output, cd player, dvd player to your hi-fi. not for recording but for playback.

 

[Cheez]

oops, Veganbleu beat me to replying first....

 

[soft]

Veganbleu's is the 101, Cheez's is the 201. :lol:

soon di0nysus will be contributing 301.

MIDI - How to?

 

[veganbleu]

Hehehehe first post first post *waves*

 

[di0nysus]

1. what keyboard are you using now?

Am using creative soundblastermp3 midi controller, sucky touch...the worst touch u can have?hehe), ~4octaves..duno how many keys is that.

is there a need to get another controller?

As for plugins, where can I find 'em? for as cheaply as possible.......

 

[Cheez]

Back to your priority. If it is recording, then focus on that.

You seems very interested in sounds as well. We'll have to know - do you intend to use the sounds just for midi playback or do you intend to do sequencing?

 

[di0nysus]

Both? I'm sick of 'plastic drums and piano' sounds. As for my current recordings, they sound pretty alright, pretty clean and noise free, i think its only at 16/44, am not sure how much better 24/96 will sound.

Basically for recording, I'll either copy some midi tracks or input some drums/bass/keys myself, then i'll play guitar/vox live and record. The midi parts sounds plastic, hence I was thinking of new sound card to get better midi sounds, now I realise its the plug-ins that is responsible, but no idea where to get 'em.

Also, I don't practise (guitar) as much as I should, hence I don't know if recording should be secondary. I'd love to play some keys as well, but the sounds just puts me off, is it possible to get triton kinda sounds from cheap set ups?

 

[Cheez]

I don't usually advice this, but in your situation (tight budget), would you consider getting a Yamaha PSR type keyboard? Actually, the Yamaha DGX series keyboards is a good entry-level (not too expensive) with pretty decent piano sounds, GM and XG. It can serve as a better keyboard than your current one and also give you OK GM sounds for midi playback.

 

[di0nysus]

soundbanks!

managed to load plug-ins lm-7 and fb-1. sound better than the default ones. so theses are the plug ins? but when i play using the midi controller, there's a delay (abt 1sec) before the sound comes out. when i play in the default creative A: or B: SB LIVE! MIDI SYNTH, there's no lag. why is that so?


now where to find more plug ins?

 

[Cheez]

Midi interface. Latency will be high if soundcard is not pro. When you play sounds from the soundcard, midi connects directly to it. Latency will be lower. Also, make sure you're using ASIO and not MME in the sequencer (provided your soundcard can support it). That will decrease the latency well.